DVLA Fines again

[Bucketfloozy]

Sorry to repeat this subject again, but we have been given a fine by DVLA, now being dealt with by the Enforcement Centre. Here is our story.... Dates are approximate......

We sold our old car to a friend (22 Dec 12). The following day, we sent our doc for change of ownership and the new keeper sent the Sorn. The tax was due at the end of Dec, but as she was having an extended stay with family she sent the sorn.

A day or 2 later the new keeper goes away and we do our thing.......... Then out of the blue, around the 20 Feb, we receive a fine for failure to declare or tax the vehicle. On enquiring about the vehicle and this particular subject, niether DVLA or the enforcement Centre can share any information. So we challenge using the appropriate area on the penalty letter. A week or so later, mysteriously the new log book arrives at the new keeper.... But it takes around 5 days for us to receive our acknowledgement.

Only last week on the 21 Mar we received a rejection of the appeal saying we can still pay at the reduced rate if done before 20 Mar..................... Yeah, check the date.... Even if we did want to pay. They printed/ wrote the letter on 13 Mar and the post date on the envelope was 18 Mar. Great system!!

On another enquiry at this stage, DVLA stated they do not record when Docs are received, but should... "should" be processed within 20 days. But how can they audit this then?

My wife has worked in a legal system and I in a place requiring proof of stuff also for legal reasons. Surely they should date/ time stamp things otherwise have no case?

Part of their rejection states that we did not notify them.... Yeah we did. By post. As too did the new owner. Because they owned the vehicle. But DVLA also say we should have sorned the vehicle or tax it as it was our responsibility until the acknowledgement was received.

This is actually my wifes car/ excar so its actually all her paperwork etc. But am I right in saying we are correct to fight the fine witha chance of being successful. £40 half price, £80 even would bankrupt us, but I'm not in the habbit of paying fines for things I haven't done..... Or in this case subsidising improvement to a poor DVLA system. MY wife requested another complaint letter today, which is quoted on the back of the letter from the enforcement letter as being processed within1 day of request. But the person on the phone quotes we'll get it in 7-10 working days. Further more evidance that These departments rules/ guidelines/ regulations/ procedures are all a bit willy nilly to say the least and don't tie together.

Should I/ we dispute this again with the letter I've seen on another post from May 2012 "failure to notify?

[janeyhaha]

Bucketfloozy, I sympathise and don't know how to advise you; myself and partner are in the middle of appealing (although no official appeal system I note) and fighting a string of fines currently. This all down to partner being ill for past year and only getting penalty notification from 2011 sent THIS month ! (March 2013) as DVLA kept sending notifications to SORN his bike to our OLD address (moved to new since 2007!) and bike locked up in the back of our house ever since, never ridden. Apart from his illness, my appeal to them is that he thought once he had sent first SORN 'that was that' for the lifetime of the bike being off the road, would make sense to me and most I guess, although (sigh) we know ignorance of the law is no excuse so they say. But I bet it only says you have to do it yearly in the very small print! Plus DVLA don't go out of their way to contact you, yet the Collection company also seem to find you, don't they? There IS such a thing as a local electoral list! These penalties to me seem to be a particularly unjust tax on the forgetful and the ill especially and almost designed for entrapment! DVLA are also maintaining they will NOT take a change of address unless it's on original LOG, how convenient ! My partner had a) passed his test at our new address and b) SORNed his vehicle for the first time from our new address - therefore they had the information right in front of them, albeit not the official form, but just chose not to use it ! I wonder if a legal case can be made of that as it's so pedantic. I will be writing to my MP and suggest you do the same. Good luck !

Edited March 28, 2013 by janeyhaha
Create paragraphs

[havinastella]

Nobody will read these posts unless you edit them with paragraphs.

[janeyhaha]

Nobody will read these posts unless you edit them with paragraphs.

 

Ok thanks, I tried to edit afterwards and it didn't work. thanks agin for advice though, I guess I was just carried away on the keyboard!

[sgtbush]

all i know about the DVLA system is you have to notify them of change of ownership, which you did, that is required in law

what is not required is to follow up after 20 days if u dont get anything back from them.

 

the dates on the cert u sent them should tell them that u no longer owned the car and you informed them, which is all you have to do.

i would dispute the debt and get a proper timeline of what you have done and send it to them recorded delivery

[Kiki1]

Nobody will read these posts unless you edit them with paragraphs.

 

Only those without the basic intellignece to understand current SORN legislation is fundamentally flawed and a danger to road safety unless completely revised in statute.

[9000up]

The DVLA are a massive Government body who believe they are infallible, believe me they are not, far from it, however the enforcement centre I'm told do not have a telephone number where you can discuss anything, that tells me firstly that most of the fines they send out they don't understand, secondly they are not qualified to explain or discuss, that tells me that many of the fines are unjustified, they have standard letters they can't even bother to sign, (just in case you can find a name I guess) and again it's a clear example of we are big and powerful, never wrong so pay up when we tell you to. The letter I am currently answering I will keep going for as long as I can or until some faceless DVLA employee is prepared to talk to me.

[Tony P]

The letter I am currently answering I will keep going for as long as I can or until some faceless DVLA employee is prepared to talk to me.

 

I would seek the opportunity to 'talk' to them through a Magistrates' or County Court.

That will give a reasonable (but not certain) chance of an informed, impartial referee who rules and both parties must accept.

[ronmaxtye]

4 years ago DVLA tried to fine me for non notification, it was taken to Walthamstow magistrates court, under the section used once you have sent the v5 to DVLA i.e you post it, your obligation under the regulations are finished.

 

There is no legal obligation for you to chase them to confirm they have received the v5

 

After some legal arguments the DVLA solicitor withdrew the charge and the court dismissed the charges.

 

Do not pay DVLA fines for non notification, check the law and let DVLA take it to court??

[Raykay]

under the section used once you have sent the v5 to DVLA i.e you post it, your obligation under the regulations are finished.

 

The DVLA have recently been claiming that as the act does not mention service by post, the Interpretation Act does not apply in their cases.

[ronmaxtye]

The DVLA have recently been claiming that as the act does not mention service by post, the Interpretation Act does not apply in their cases.

 

The regulations state that the v5 must be in your posestion once you do not have it any more the obligation is finished whether it is posted..email..or put in the dustbin!!

[ronmaxtye]

The regulations state that the v5 must be in your posestion once you do not have it any more the obligation is finished whether it is posted..email..or put in the dustbin!!

 

 

The regulation also states that you must inform the secretary of state!! Not the DVLA on behalf of the secretary of state so it could be argued that there is no need to inform DVLA at all!! This has not been tried in court yet

[KrashBandikoot]

4 years ago DVLA tried to fine me for non notification, it was taken to Walthamstow magistrates court, under the section used once you have sent the v5 to DVLA i.e you post it, your obligation under the regulations are finished.

 

I'm unsure why this went to a magistrates court as SORN's are civil matters

 

I had a similar problem a few years back with a SORN on a bike, DVLA sent several threatening letters to fine me, all of which I ignored.

 

The "debt" was passed to a recovery company who then threatened me with county court. I told them to go forth and multiply, (the short version made up of only two words ), and I've never heard another thing since.

 

My advice is in these cases would be to ignore it or use the terminology I used, never roll over and pay the fine(s) as those that do are allowing the DVLA to get away with robbery and extortion.

[Raykay]

I'm unsure why this went to a magistrates court as SORN's are civil matters

 

Ronmaxtye's case was failing to notify, which is a criminal matter and was dealt with in a Magistrates' Court.

 

It is the Late Licensing Penalty that is a civil matter.

[ronmaxtye]

I have again had a letter from DVLA again over a missing v5, they tried to fine me for it but after a couple of letters i refered them to my previous court case with their Sidcup office, i have just received a letter from them saying no further acton will be taken, show no weakness or fear of them and you can win, all the regs are on the internet so check them out?? with regard to the interpretation act, it does apply to them? check the back page of the v5, in the yellow section it states that you must tear off this section and SEND it to DVLA, ergo the interpretation act applies

[Raykay]

with regard to the interpretation act, it does apply to them? check the back page of the v5, in the yellow section it states that you must tear off this section and SEND it to DVLA, ergo the interpretation act applies

 

Their regular trotted out argument is that although their instructions are to send the document to them, the legislation - The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002 - requires the document to be delivered to the Secretary of State, and as there is no mention of authorisation or requirement for the document to be served by post in the regulations, the Interpretation Act does not apply.

[ronmaxtye]

If they use that argument in court..you have a readymade defence!! There is nothing in the regs that state DVLA on behalf of the secretary of state. Therefore the DVLA has no power to issue proceedings or give fines.. the DVLA is not mentioned anywhere in the regs so as far as the regs are concerned it does not exist

[Raykay]

If they use that argument in court..you have a readymade defence!! There is nothing in the regs that state DVLA on behalf of the secretary of state. Therefore the DVLA has no power to issue proceedings or give fines.. the DVLA is not mentioned anywhere in the regs so as far as the regs are concerned it does not exist

 

Unfortunately they have used that claim in a Crown Court appeal - and won! In court, the offence will be that you failed to deliver the document to the Secretary of State, contrary to the relevant section (21 - 25), The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002. DVLA take the action on behalf of the Secretary of State.

[Peter_Moxon]

Nobody will read these posts unless you edit them with paragraphs.

 

I have had trouble editing paragraphs today. What am I doing wrong?

[Tony P]

I have had trouble editing paragraphs today. What am I doing wrong?

 

Writing what you didn't exactly mean to say?

[unzippy]

Interestingly, this website:

 

xxx.gov.uk/notifying-dvla-if-you-sell-your-vehicle

 

A government run website tells to to Post if you sold a car to a trader, but Send if it is a private sale...