Bankruptcy officer wants my back-paid ESA benefitS

[semayden]

'Hi, I am on ESA and had a successful Tribunal appeal on the 22nd Jan of

this year. I also took myself to bankruptcy last March (due to be discharged

from BR on 29th March 2013, so this year).

 

My worry is that due to my successful appeal, the DWP have not only raised

my fortnightly benefits, but have paid backdated money of £1300 into my bank account as owed for the work related component of ESA (I was waiting for tribunal for nearly a year)!

 

I rang my examiner to update her on events and was told that I need to send her details of amounts and also a letter etc. explaining what I intend to

use the backdated monies for (she described it as a 'letter of argument')

which she will then present to someone in higher position for their

consideration. At this time, she herself cannot say whether or not I will be

able to keep some or all of this money.

 

Obviously I am quite upset and shocked by this turn of events: to think that

I had to go to tribunal (a harrowing experience) only to win BUT then to

learn that I have to fight for this relatively small amount of money.

 

The backstory is that I entered bankruptcy on benefits (ESA) with no assets

(no property, lands, cars, businesses, children etc) so I was a very

straightforward case. I had and have no other income whatsoever: just my

fortnightly benefits, and I also get housing benefit and council tax paid.

 

I would be very grateful for any advice as I try to prepare this letter of

'argument' to send to the bankruptcy officer/examiner concerned.'

 

--------------------------------

Edited February 11, 2013 by semayden

[Conniff]

You just need to make a better reason for you to spend that amount than pay off some of you past debt.

[semayden]

Well, when I was given this council flat eighteen months ago, I had nothing to furnish it with. I was on ESA benefits at basic rate then and had no other income. I was allowed to keep the money from a charity to start to furnish here - but still have bare tiled floors throughout, not fully curtained (I've used red bedsheets, lol, but they aren't very warm) no cooker or washing machine, and I virtually never put the heating on here as it is too expensive to run. Heavy jumpers and hot water bottles are my friends. There are other things needed house-wise, and I live on rice and beans for the most part! I also live alone (no transport) and it can get hard with the FM/ME muscle and joint pain and fatigue side of things. I'm telling you this so you can see whether I can make a good case for needing this money myself - and I'm not sure whether I can even bring the health side in? I've tried to do a basic outline, under different headings, for my argument - and can post that as an example tomorrow, hoping that someone can say 'yes, thats good' or 'no, that won't work', lol! Thanks for reading this.

[Conniff]

Don't skimp on the health side of things. Basic needs is a big point like toilet rolls and soap and the cost of laundry especially underwear. Even send them a picture or invite one for a cuppa so they can see for themselves.

 

How can you hope that a prospective employer will take you on if you can't attend to basic domestic needs like washing and having clean close.

 

Lay it on, there is enough truths in your circumstances that you won't be pulling the wool over their eyes.

[semayden]

Well, I told my bankruptcy examiner that I needed new clothes and underwear - and she sounded uncertain about that, so I just don't know what her boss is likely to want to read in my written argument. They'll want hard facts won't they - not a sob story! Its just hard getting that balance between the two. I want to try and get my letter done tomorrow night if I can - so all your thoughts are very welcome.

[Conniff]

Have moved your thread to the Formal Solutions: Bankruptcy, Administration Orders and IVAs section, you should get more help here.

[semayden]

Thank you Conniff. Ok, here is a rough outline of how I want to set out this 'letter of argument' (stupid term!): Please will people look it over and tell me what you think?

 

I will explain that I am on ESA, how long I have been on it and that I have FM, ME, and that I appear to have a problem with the formation of red blood cells in my bone marrow - and I'm due to undergo bone marrow biopsy. Tell briefly how this impacts on my day to day living and wellbeing, i.e. pain makes movement difficult, lack of movement means I can get very cold etc. (this links to what I will explain I need the £1,300 for further on). I suffer from chronic fatigue, also slowing me down and contributing to feeling cold. Say that I live alone in a large, one bedroom flat in a council run tower block, and have no other means of income.

 

Then I thought I should do an INCOME and OUTGOINGS table, to demonstrate that I was not in a position to buy any of the items (to be listed below) and that there was a shortfall of income - and that even on the new WRC ESA increase I will still not be able to buy these items as they will still be beyond my means. Here I will include monthly contact lense payments, prescription charges and the like.

 

Next, the 'SHORTFALL', where I list the items I need to spend the £1,300 on, and which I have lacked before and during this Bankruptcy period. These include:

 

Carpeting: needed throughout the flat, which is tiled and often freezing as a result. I have to use blankets and hot water bottles even when sitting in living room!

Curtains in living room, bedroom and kitchen. Again, these areas are very cold due to poorly covered windows.

Heaters: the Economy 7 system in these flats is inexpensive and ineffectual and I have gone without heating for the major part of the winter.

Washing machine: my old one (20 years old) has broken down months ago - and I have to rely on the goodwill of neighbours or use the launderette (a 15 minute walk away, difficult with the FM/ME issues).

Cooker: I have been using a microwave for the last year, and there is a limit to what you can cook in those!

Computer: mine stopped working 6 months ago and I have to walk to local library daily (we are rationed to 2 hours daily use) to use internet, give and receive email, look for jobs etc.

Vacum cleaner: these flats get a high level of dust etc., due to being very exposed to high winds.

 

I could put other things on the above list (talking to CAG now!) but those are the big ones! I actually know someone a couple of streets away who is having a flat clearance over the next couple of months prior to returning to Brazil, and is prepared to sell all the above and more but wants £1, 500 the lot. My son could probably supply the extra £200 needed. Should I mention this in my 'letter of argument'.

 

Um, what else? Am I missing something crucial here? Or have I written too much? Please tell me what you think, and thanks for reading it!

Edited February 12, 2013 by semayden

[semayden]

Ok, I've finished the 'letter of argument'. The main thing that bothers me is that my outgoings exceed my income by £6.75 per week. Should that stay in or will they see me as irresponsible?

 

Secondly, do I mention that there's a local lady selling up to go back to Brazil - who is prepared to sell her stuff to me?

[caledfwlch]

Surely the Insolvency Service cannot touch Benefits at all?

 

This is not a "bonus" you are receiving or a windfall, it is arrears of money that you should have been receiving since X date. Had you been receiving the extra money weekly, rather than suddenly in bulk, the IS wouldn't have been able to touch it, and I suspect they cannot touch it now.

 

This is not extra money.

[semayden]

caledfwich, this is what I and others are thinking. But if that is the case, why did the person who is entitled my 'examining officer' express doubts about my keeping all of it, much less some of it. Surely she wouldn't have asked me to present a letter of argument etc. for her to take to her superior to discuss the matter - unless she thought it possible that I might have it taken off me? Honestly, I don't know what to think. Anyway, I posted the letter this afternoon, and will ring her on Monday/Tuesday to check she's received it and is doing something about it asap! Thank you for replying to me.

 

In fact, I wish I had seen your post earlier and would have included your reasoning (but re-worded as my own thoughts, lol)!

[caledfwlch]

caledfwich, this is what I and others are thinking. But if that is the case, why did the person who is entitled my 'examining officer' express doubts about my keeping all of it, much less some of it. Surely she wouldn't have asked me to present a letter of argument etc. for her to take to her superior to discuss the matter - unless she thought it possible that I might have it taken off me? Honestly, I don't know what to think. Anyway, I posted the letter this afternoon, and will ring her on Monday/Tuesday to check she's received it and is doing something about it asap! Thank you for replying to me.

 

I would contact the DWP too on Monday. Can always threaten press as a last resort - IS stealing sick benefits.

 

Instead of a begging letter I would be demanding they prove they have a right to seize benefits money.

[semayden]

Yes, I 'll try the DWP as well. The letter wasn't that begging really - more icily factual and proving that outgoings exceed income, and how I need to use that back money for a number of basic household items that I have lacked since moving to current address 18 months back. Also emphasised the illness side of things, but remained cool and clipped - so, we'll see.

[semayden]

In fact, I am wondering if it would be a good idea to go into my bank tomorrow to remove the money from my account, before the bankruptcy people help themselves to it - and whilst I am debating the issue with them. Or would that be utterly foolish?

[stu007]

Hi

 

I would air caution on doing what you say about emptying your account so bankruptcy people dont get it you need to remember that your Official Reciever/Trustee in Bankruptcy is acting on behalf of the Courts with a valid court order.

[semayden]

Hi

 

I would air caution on doing what you say about emptying your account so bankruptcy people dont get it you need to remember that your Official Reciever/Trustee in Bankruptcy is acting on behalf of the Courts with a valid court order.

 

Ok, point taken! Thanks.

[stu007]

Hi

 

Although I air caution this does not stop you asking them questions as to under what legislation/regulation are they allowed to include your recent ESA Appeal money that is money that you should have been entitled to at the time by DWP.

[semayden]

Yes, caledfwlch said something similar and I shall ask those questions, don't worry!

[semayden]

Just updating:

 

I rang my examining offer (bankruptcy) today to see if she'd received my 'letter of argument' this morning, but no, not yet. I then asked her how it was possible that they could take benefit money which should have been fed steadily into my bank account over the last year - but just happens to have arrived in one overdue lump. She said she saw very clearly what I was saying but that she couldn't take the decision herself but would submit my letters etc. to her superior (!) when they finally arrived on her desk - which could be days as all letters have to be vetted in some way before reaching their intended destination. Sigh.

 

Next stop was to go down to my local jobcentre in person, where I spoke to someone sympathetic and also fairly senior. He also suspects that the insolvency lot won't have a leg to stand on when it comes to helping themselves to my back paid benefits - but said that the DWP themselves were powerless to assist me in holding onto them. He also suggested I ask the bankruptcy officer about the legislation involved in any attempt to keep my back pay.

 

Finally, I stopped off at the bank to ask them if it was possible/permissable for the bankruptcy lot to simply sweep in to my account and take the money asap. Another very sympathetic response from the bank clerk, who said that at the beginning of my bankruptcy, that may well have happened (it didn't, in my case, because I had nothing apart from benefits) but that it was unlikely at this stage as the matter is not yet resolved.

 

I hesitate to go to the CAB here in Leeds as it always seems to be hard to get in to see them! Do you really recommend this step? I have just googled CAB, Leeds, and see that they are open on Wed. so could go down in person if necessary to see someone or at least make an appointment.

[semayden]

Just to tell you that my letter to the examing offcer in charge of my bankruptcy was successful, and they have agreed that I need the back-payment of ESA benefits more than my creditors do - so a happy outcome. Thanks for all your help

Edited February 24, 2013 by semayden
put debtors, instead of creditors!

[stu007]

Hi

 

Thank you for updating us and that great news well done for sticking with it.

[semayden]

I apologise for cheekily using this thread again, but it is a related matter and it seems silly to start a specific thread on this particular question!

 

The judge declared me bankrupt on 29th March 2012 (at 10.45am!) and I was told by my examiner that I should assume automatic discharge on this day exactly one year later, so today on 29th March 2013. There have been no complications, and I have heard nothing from them since they told me (above) that I could keep the ESA back-pay. Am I correct in assuming that I am now a discharged bankrupt? I have emailed my examiner asking for a letter of confirmation (when she returns from Easter break) but would like to celebrate tonight if I am indeed correct!!!

[citizenB]

Sounds about right to me. I think you could probably go ahead and have a little celebration

[semayden]

Thank you for answering so quickly, citizenB. I appreciate it! Ok, starting with hot sweet tea, and we'll take it from there! I toast you and your fellow caggers. Thanks for being here on a number of occasions when I needed you.

[citizenB]

Thank you for answering so quickly, citizenB. I appreciate it! Ok, starting with hot sweet tea, and we'll take it from there! I toast you and your fellow caggers. Thanks for being here on a number of occasions when I needed you.

 

You are more than welcome - It is very encouraging to hear that people have "survived" what must be a horrid situation.