Used car, faulty braking system after 3 weeks. SOGA or repair?

[digots]

Hi,

 

We recently bought an 08 C4 picasso (just over 50k miles) from a local dealer. Paid £7500 (£1000 part ex, £6500 balance). Took no extra warranty (my bad).

 

We recently had a trip to scotland and while in a car park the braking system failed, warnings for braking system failure, handbraking system failure, ESP failure and depolution failure all at the same time. I had to contact a local garage as we were stuck. He said to leave it a while and try switching the engine off/on etc to see if it clears as he couldnt help at all. He advised we should get it to citroen.

 

We only had the car 3 weeks so I spoke to the car dealer we bought it from explaining the situation and he said I should get Citroen to look at it. I said he should take the financial hit for that and after some back and forth with the dealers mechanic they have agreed to get the codes read at their own garage.

 

Where exactly do I stand her regarding Sale of Goods and what should I expect from the dealer?

 

Any help is appreciated.

 

Dave

[rebel11]

Hi dig

 

Here's some information, flow chart on page 28:-

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/676408/oft1241.pdf

 

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/sale-of-goods/your-rights-buying-second-hand-cars/

[BankFodder]

I would say that you are in a position to reject the car - but very certainly you should expect to be reimmbursed the full cost of repair plus any expenses associated with the breakdown.

 

Mke sure that you keep all bills and do everything in writing - not on the phone unless you record the calls.

[digots]

Thanks for the help so far guys.

 

Where would we stand regarding the part ex value of our car. Would be expect a full refund of the sale. £7500?

 

Will see what the garage says today when they look at the car.

 

Thanks again

 

Dave

[Conniff]

Is there actually a brake failure, can you drive the car or is it just the indication ??

[digots]

The hand brake refuses to release when the warning is on. We cannot drive the car because of the handbrake failure so cannot say if the brakes are failing when the error is on. When the errors clear, the handbrake and brakes and the car drive normally. Seems intermittent.

 

Not happy about having braking failures regardless when I had 3 young kids in the back, especially on a car we had less than 3 weeks.

 

Hope that helps.

[digots]

Ok, back from garage.

 

Walked away happy that they dealt with it in a professional manner.

 

Codes are showing it is an ABS pump failure. Mechanic said maybe just a loose connection or wiring issue and will contact Citroen for advice. I asked them to cover all costs and they will ring me back with an more info on fault and whether they will accept repair costs.

 

Thanks guys for the help.

 

Will keep you updated.

[rebel11]

Good news so far, let us know when it's resolved.

[scaniaman]

Don't expect too much help from Citroen UK. They know jack all about cars and rely solely on their diagnostic computers.

If no fault shows up-----then no fault exists. ???????????????????????

[heliosuk]

How very true scania!!! Fortunately here Citroen do say a fault exists. What's interesting is that they say it could be this or that which sort of reinforces your argument and my opinion with them a few years ago. Essentially they don't have the knowledge to interpret what the failure codes mean.

 

To the OP, look up this failure mode on Gooffle. Citroen will want to replace the whole unit but I cannot see the supplying dealer buying into this as is big bucks. It is possible to get a perfectly reasonable re-con unit.

 

I would though question the fact that the park brake won't release. It still should even with a ABS pump failure as is a seperatebrake system in it's own right. It suggests to me that the diagnosis is potentially nearly correct but not fully confirmed.

 

What you need to remember though, and this is unfortunately inherrant on all cars these days and not fully explained is that provided you have servo assistance ( which is not usually electronically controlled) and there is no fluid leak you still have a safe and reliable braking system. You may not have ABS or ESP or DSC if fitted but then you go back to the good old days. I have always been of the opinion that if you need these systems you are not driving within your or the cars capabilities.

[digots]

Just a quick update.

 

The car was sent to Citroen for a full diagnostic and check. I sat 2.5hrs and was again told its the ABS pump. Dealer agreed to repair this. Dealer garage could only fit our car in this week for repair (10 Sep). They have fitted the ABS pump and the car is now with Citroen to be charged and tested overnight. Fingers crossed its fixed but I havent heard anything back yet so hope its ok.

 

If they cannot clear these faults what do you think is my best option? We really dont want to have ongoing issues with braking systems when we have 3 kids in the back let alone ourselves.

 

Will update if/when this is resolved.

 

Dave

[digots]

Another update.

 

Car was repaired (replaced ABS Pump) and after 2 weeks of use the faults have returned. I phoned the dealer and said we are rejecting the car and want a refund as we have given them the opportunity to repair the car and have failed. Salesman said he would need to discuss with the boss/owner on what could be arranged but he seems to want to offer a different car rather a refund because the car is in our name, wear and tear etc..

 

I have spoken to trading standards (Citizens Advice) and they said we should write to formally reject the car. Trading standards want to take action themselves as its classed as a dangerous fault but I told them to hold off until I resolve something with the dealer.

 

Does this seem the correct thing to do so far?

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[digots]

Ok, dealer took the car and said he would take it to Citroen to get sorted, got it back from Citroen fault code P0562 cleared and a new battery.

 

Got in the car tonight, Faulty Handbrake...

 

I think I have only one way to go here and that's a full refund???

[heliosuk]

I'd be very careful with the advice from trading standards. From an engineering/legal point of view the car will not be deemed to be dangerous as the braking system will still operate. ABS is a driver aid andnothing more.

Fault P0562 is a classic low voltage code which will stop the EPB from releasing. When dealers replace batteries they invariably just fit one from stock, they need charging for at least 24hrs prior to fitment.

This sounds like a classic miss diagnosis again.

 

To reject the car on a "dangerous" grounds case will be very risky. Persistent fault not rectified after three attempts would be the grounds to go on.

 

And of course you do realise that by rejecting the car you have to park it up and it can take over a year to resolve any legal action?

 

Personally I'dkeep on at the supplying dealer.He now has grounds to go afte rthe Citroen dealer and the fact that he has arranged for it to go says he's doing all he reasonably can.

[Conniff]

Agree with the above. A lot of cars now should never have the battery disconnected, they should be connected via jump leads to a bettery while their own is changed. dunno if you car is one of them but it is something that is becoming more and more a common.

[heliosuk]

It's not just that Conniff. They will charge a battery for a few hours and fit and everything looks OK. What thedealers don't realise and is not often documentated is that all they will see is a surface charge. They need a deep discharge such as all lights on and heated windows etc to get rid of it ..........only then will there be a true reflection of the "actual" voltage.

 

The control units are very sensitive to this.

 

I still insist this is perhaps an over reaction to a rectifiable problem and the car is not "dangerous". The dealer seems to be doing what he can, the owner seems to have a misconception of to what is a fault and what is not..........not uncommon on modern cars.

[digots]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

 

Misconception or not this car is not roadworthy, does not park safely and has left my other half with 3 kids stuck in the dark and myself stuck in the bloody petrol station for 15 minutes trying to get the hand brake off etc... We probably would not be insured should anything happen as it is an ongoing fault so I am just covering my arse.

 

Apart from that the dealer has agreed to a replacement but they don't have a suitable car so he said he would 'source' one from a motability list?? What if we dont like it, what if its not a car would would have gone out and bought to start with where do we stand.

 

I know its all sound petty and maybe we are over reacting but we just want a car that works and it seems we have to suffer without a car until this is sorted.