Is this benefit fraud?

[mary1]

Hi, I am worried sick about my housing and council tax benefit.

 

I had to pop into the council to tell them I had started a new job and provide evidence of that and my tax credits.

 

While I was there I saw that the council had my partners wages as being £40 a week down from what they are.

 

We took in her wages slips when she started and told them that she worked 20 hours but the wage slip did not reflect this as it was a first one.

 

They assessed our housing benefit based on the smaller amount and never asked for any other pay slips. We thought they knew the correct amount, we have always taken in the tax credit forms and assumed they knew our correct income.

 

They have asked us to provide new payslips which is fine but it is going to show that she earns more and I am afraid they will think we have been fraudulently claiming extra.

 

I have calculated that they think she has earned 4700 less than she has over the two years.

 

I am terrified at how much we will have to pay back and if they will prosecute us. Do you think we will owe more than £2000, I have been looking and this seems to be the amount over which they prosecute.

 

Why did they not ask for more payslips? I feel so angry at myself that I did not take any in anyway. I am so worried about this. Please can anyone offer any advice.

[antone]

I'm not a fraud expert, but there are two different issues in these sorts of cases. There's the benefit overpayment - this is a civil matter and separate from any issue of fraud, which is a criminal matter. In other words, it's possible to have been overpaid benefit without any fraud being involved.

 

At first glance you would seem to have been overpaid, so the council will probably look to recover that from future HB payments. Now as to whether they'll treat this as fraud, well, we can't say for sure. It doesn't look like fraud to me, since you genuinely believed they had the correct information and showed no intent to deceive. But as I said, I'm no expert. Perhaps a word with the local CAB might be helpful.

[id6052]

hmmm.... you are in a tricky situation

 

when you provide your payslips, they may just update the earnings from then, or they might start asking questions about how long she has been receiving the higher earnings

 

if you point out the error in her earnings yourself, you will definitely get hit with the full overpayment, but it is highly unlikely they would have a fraud case against you, as you pointed out the mistake and made an admission before being cautioned

 

if you do not point out the error, they may not go back with the higher income and therefore you have chance of avoiding the overpayment - however if they do go back with the higher income, you run risk of a fraud case

 

my advice is to be honest with them and point out the mistake, though the choice is down to you

[mary1]

Hi thank you for the advice so far.

They are asking for her p60s and wage slips.

 

Do you think this will be fraud?

I will go in next week and point out the overpayment. Its actually 4200 extra shes earned, do you think the overpayment will be over £2000?

 

We both want to work in the social care industry and a conviction would completely ruin our chances of that.

So if we say first it will be okay? We are terrified.

 

We are actually no longer entitled to housing benefit as far as I know as from the beginning of September, thats why I went to the office. To be honest after this I don't want to even try and see if we are.

What should I say to them?

 

We really didnt know they thought we were on less.

[id6052]

if they are asking for P60s, it sounds like they might already have an idea that there is something wrong with her income

 

if so, the issue will depend upon upon what information you supplied on the claim form and what information could be gleened from the payslips originally provided

 

normally fraud would only apply if you made some form of false statement/declaration, or failed to declare a change - if neither apply, you should be okay from fraud perspective (although this could be complicated if you have previous benefit fraus sanctions against you)

[mary1]

When she got the job we told them she worked 20 hours, but the wage slip did not reflect that as it was an early one.

They have never asked for an another wage slip but we have told them when the tax credits have changed.

Is it failure to declare a change? We thought they knew she earned 140 not 100. We have never made a false statement.

They want bank statements as well. I don't want to go in and say we think we have been overpaid and have them think we are just saying it because we are worried we are going to get caught. We honestly did not know they didn't know. We are so worried.

I can't find out how much we have been overpaid, I can only guess but I am worried it is over £2000.

Do they prosecute people for things like this? If they genuinely did not see they had the wrong information.

We have never been in trouble before, no fraud sanctions or anything.

What should we do? Please can someone suggest what to do. I will lose my career over this if they think we are lying.

[id6052]

a discrepancy in income of £40pw, would result in a hb opmt of £26pw and ctb opmt of £8pw

 

if the overpayment has been for 2 years, then it would be roughly £2700 for hb and £800 for ctb

 

some cases like this will be dealt with by simply reassessing your benefit entitlement and asking you to repay the overpayment

other cases may result in a fraud investigation

 

are any of the letters requesting information from the fraud dept or investigation dept (different councils call them by different names), if not, then it is probably just being dealt with as a reassessment and overpayment, this is probably the best time to admit that you have now noticed the discrepancy, less likely to get referred to fraud dept that way

 

if you do start to receive correspondence from fraud dept, for example inviting you for an interview, then you should seek legal advice

[id6052]

even if it does get referred to fraud, simply explain that: -

 

1. you provided the payslip they requested
   
2. you did not know they were using the wrong income
   
3. you did not know you were being overpaid
   
4. you now realise that there was an error in the income
   
5. if you had known sooner you would have told them
   
6. you now realise the importance of checking the figures on your benefiot notification letters
   

[mary1]

We have never had a letter, they don't know we have realised yet.

Everyone is telling me to ignore it now that I do not claim the benefits anymore but I don't know if that would make it worse. I'm sure it would if I wait for them to realise.

 

Its 700 extra money the first tax year, 3000 second and 500 since this april, will that make any difference to the overpayment figure?

 

I didn't think it would be that big. I'm sure we will get prosecuted now. How does it work, do they prosecute both or the main claimant?

 

Thank you so much for your help. We feel so stupid for not realising.

[id6052]

even if they do decide there is a fraud case, it does not necessarily mean that they will prosecute

 

the usual outcomes of any investigation are either

 

1. no overpayment
   
2. overpayment but no further action
   
3. overpayment dealt with by applying a Caution (an official warning not to do it again)
   
4. overpayment dealt with by Administrative Penalty (a 30% fine/surcharge on top of the overpayment)
   
5. overpayment dealt with by Prosecution
   

Prosecution is probably one of the least common results, so there is no point in getting yourself worried.

If a sanction (3,4,5) is applied, this will only be in respect of one person, which is almost always the main claimant.

 

To make a rough estimate of overpayment, it would be 65% for HB and 20% for CTB, so if discrepancy was; -

 

• £700 in first year, roughly £455 HB opmt and £140 for CTB opmt
  
• £3000 in second year, roughly £1950 HB opmt and £600 for CTB opmt
  
• £500 in this year, roughly £325 HB opmt and £100 for CTB opmt (plus for CTB any additional until end of tax year)
  

 

please note these are just rough figures, and could vary dependant upon actual entitlement each week

[mary1]

You are a great help, thank you.

 

I thought they always prosecuted over £2000.

 

Do you think they will see it is a genuine mistake?

[id6052]

each council will have their own prosecution policy and there are a number of different factors considered before deciding to prosecute, it is not simply the amount of the overpayment

 

most councils i have dealt with publish their policy, you may be able to view your local council's policy by looking on their website or googling it

 

if you have difficulty finding it, let me know the council name and i will try to find it for you - if you would rather not say name of council in this thread, send me a personal message

 

honestly, i do not know how they will view it, i believe you that it was an honest mistake

[id6052]

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/sanction-policy.pdf

Prosecution criteria used by DWP is as follows:

 

4.4.1 If there is sufficient evidence the Department will refer the case to the Department’s Prosecution Division for consideration of criminal prosecution where one or more of the following criteria are met:

♦The gross adjudicated overpayment (including Housing and Council Tax Benefit) is £2,000 or over

♦False identities or other personal details have been used

♦False or forged documents have been used

♦Official documents have been altered or falsified

♦The person concerned occupied a position of trust

♦The person concerned assisted or encouraged others to commit offences

♦There is evidence of premeditation or organised fraud

♦The customer had previously been convicted of benefit fraud

♦The amount of the overpayment is under £2,000 and the offer of an administrative penalty or caution is not accepted.

[mary1]

Thank you for the help and advice.

 

We are going to go into the council and take all the wage slips, bank statements and p60s over the whole two years and tell them we think there is a discrepancy.

 

How do you think we should word it? We don't know what to say. Do you think we should just say we are worried there has been an overpayment could you check please?

[jadeybags]

When I started reading yuour thread I thought it was mine dragged up from last year

This exact same thing happened to me.

They didn't prosecute & it ended up as 'no further action' but you do have to pay them back.

I had been on income support for 10 yrs then decided I wanted to work now my youngest was 11, so started working part time, got the months run on of full housing & council tax benefit, changed jobs after 5 weeks, they asked for a payslip, my first payslip was only a part payslip as I got paid after 3 weeks work. I also gave them my works contract, which showed I would be earning 100 a week. They didn't ask for anymore payslips, told me I would still get full housing benefit.

I even said are you sure, because at my back to work interview I was told I would have to pay 45 a week towards my rent.

Chap on the phone said ah, recently the government has decided that CSA payments aren't counted as income anymore, that'll be why.

Sounded fine to me as my CSA payments were £45 per week.

Fast forward 2 yrs & a benefit officer popped over to check I am claiming right, I had been over paid for 2 yrs! She could see the colour drain from my face she said.

Mine worked out at £1600 for housing & council tax benefit.

I had to go for an interview under caution, standard at our council for amounts over 500 apparently, I took my dad, he reckoned they wanted to make sure I hadn't known that their staff had messed up & let it carry on.

Waited 2 weeks for a decision, by which time I had almost walked under a bus. I went & got a top up on my bank loan & paid it all back & cancelled my housing benefit claim as I still thought they had worked it out wrong. Upped my hours at work & lived on £100 per week for 3 of us. They wanted £100 a month paid back, my loan was only an extra £35, so I had to go for that.

Did that for just over a year & when my rent went up, food etc I just couldn't do it anymore.

I started working self employed, quit the employed job & went back on housing benefit this april.

I don't sleep as well anymore & I have over estimated my self employed income, told them i'll be earning 100 a week but haven't earnt that yet! but would rather it that way! but one day it'll be nice to never have to claim anything.

Not reviewing your claim after a year, & not asking for a second payslip, is to a certain degree failing you in their duty of care. Just something my compliance officer told me, so make sure you mention that to them! We don't know how they work out benefits, we trust them to get it right.

And they still haven't made their award letters any easier to work out....

[mary1]

Thank you for your story jadeybags, it does sounds similar.

 

They've never reviewed or asked for any other wage slips.

 

What should I do? Should I go hand in all the info they want and wait for them to contact me or should I go in and say I think I have been overpaid?

 

I'm worried they'll think I'm just saying it because I might get caught now. Please can someone tell me what to do.

 

We don't want to get into any trouble but it seems inevitable we will be prosecuted, its such a huge amount of money.

I've been reading other stories on the internet and they are all prosecuted for this amount.

I'm sorry to keep repeating myself, just feels like the worst thing that has ever happened to me and I'm going to end up losing my job and my partner will. Both our jobs require crbs.

[jadeybags]

They probably have an idea already that they have over paid you by now anyway, so may be best to say you are now thinking it too. And it's one of those situations where they are also probably thinking oh blimey, ok, who admined this claim. And whoever it was is probably days away from a rollocking. The person that did mine was no longer there, at least that's what she insinuated anyway.

I wouldn't worry too much about what you think 'looks bad' either, everything that could look bad did for me, I didn't receive a letter to start with saying the compliance officer was coming, & only my teen son was in. So she came back when I rang her number from the card she left, I found the letter unopened a few weeks later (it came in the same envelope the benefit statements did & I never opened those either)

So that probably looked bad for a start. Like I was trying to avoid her.

But don't forget this isn't fraud, this is an official error. You did what they asked in the begining. They told you what you would be getting in benefit. To prosecute for benefit fraud, they need to be able to prove you knowingly committed fraud.

It's definitely not all about the amount when they decide to prosecute.

If they ever do call you in for an interview, which is likely by the way, you just make sure you point out that it was their mistake not yours. They would find it very hard to use that tape against you in court, & it wouldn't look good pointing out their incompitence would it.

It is petrifying though I know, I felt terrible, it seemed to go on forever even though it was only a matter of weeks.

Once the official side of it is out the way, you then have to pay it back (unless you appeal which is a good idea) that's the bit that kills me, the paying it back.

I took a bank loan for a car based on the full benefit they awarded me, I ended up angry because I would never have done that if they had worked my claim out right from the start! That mistake cost me dearly.

[mary1]

Well I took in all the info they asked for and told them I am worried we have been overpaid.

They were really nice, the man asked me did I do it on purpose and I said no and he said well I don't see how they can prosecute you then.

He thinks they will just send me a letter asking for the overpayment back. Lets hope thats right.

 

It is a lot of money but I am trying to just be positive, it is very hard. I have not been eating or sleeping just panicking 24/7.

 

Do they consider your character when deciding whether to prosecute?

I've just been accepted into university on a course that requires a crb and I do 2 volunteer jobs, surely they can see I would not do this on purpose. I would not work so hard to get into university if I was breaking the law knowing full well my university would kick me out straightaway.

[Nystagmite]

Do they consider your character when deciding whether to prosecute?

 

I would imagine so. If this is your first offence, it would look better than if you've done this a few times before.