Employment Appeal Tribunal: How to establish points of Law grounds

[Sokoto]

How can one establish a point of law ground for Employment Cases?

[becky2585]

I don't really understand the question. If you win a case in the EAT, legal precedent is automatically established.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Nor I, what is it you wish to prove or disprove.?

[Sokoto]

In an interlocutory decision of the Tribunal, an adversed decision was reached against the Claimant. These include the refusal by the Tribunal Panel for disclosures of material which the Respondents have refused to disclose, refusal by the Tribunal to open up the names of the comparators, refusal of the Tribunal to order the disclosure of Organisation Chart etc. All requested information was refused by the Tribunal. The Claimant is of the view that the Tribunal may be biased and wanted help on how best to go about the case which has been adjourned to later the year.

[becky2585]

Is that a question or just a rant in the third person? I honestly dont mean to be rude, but I don't understand what you're getting at.

[Sokoto]

becky2585,

 

How can a Claimant establish a point of law ground to be able to file an appeal to the employment Appeal Tribunal. The information ss that only point of law can be accepted as proper grounds of appeal to the EAT. So how can that grounds be established from refusal of the ET to order disclosure of materials and facts being withheld by the Employer?

[becky2585]

Maybe a breach of Rule 14(2) - "So far as it appears appropriate to do so, the employment judge or tribunal shall seek to avoid formality in his or its proceedings and shall not be bound by any enactment or rule of law relating to the admissibility of evidence in proceedings before the courts".

 

Fine line though, as they could have been exercising their discretion, which isn't a point of law...

 

If you want to post more details of the case, happy to try to advise further.

[Sokoto]

Rule 14(2) is a good start, Thank you.

 

The problem is that once they are biaised then the Claimant can never get their discretion anymore which could be itself unfair, isnt it? So is it possible for the Claimant to request a new Tribunal Panel be reconstituted?

[becky2585]

Yes, but do you have a judgment/order which you're challenging?

 

The EAT can use Article 6 of the Human Rights Act to challenge bias, and an Employment Judge has to investigate if there's a possibility it's occurred. However, clearly any losing party will allege bias, so it's dangerous ground, firstly because it may irritate the ET and secondly because you could have costs awarded against you if you are unsuccessful. As I advise anyone on here - see a solicitor. EAT level is highly complex and is argued on law points only, which is very difficult for a lay person.

 

One relevant case is Porter v Magill [2002] 2 AC 357 for the test of whether there has been bias.

[Sokoto]

There is an Order. They gave some seven pages of reasons for their Grounds of Adjudications. Reading through those reasons one is convinced beyond peradventure that the Tribunal Panel is consciously or unconsciously biased. They appeared to be making arguments for the Employer and misdirected argument raised by the Claimant.

 

I can provide the whole documents here but would like the ability to be able to delete after you have read it. Is this possible?

[honeybee13]

I can provide the whole documents here but would like the ability to be able to delete after you have read it. Is this possible?

Hello there. Are you able to paint out personal details from the document? You don't want your name or anyone else's appearing on here.

 

I'll check with the site team to see if there's another solution for you.

 

My best, HB

 

[Sokoto]

Okay. I wait upon whomever is interested to provide me ideas on point of law grounds because this Tribunal demonstrated they cannot be trusted. They changed virtually most of the discusion to favour the Employer. This is really frustrating but very good that one can see their mindset before the ultimate decision is reached. Help on how to draft a letter for a reconstituted ET will be appreciated. Help also to draft appeal to the EAT will be very much apprecaited as well.

[honeybee13]

Okay. I wait upon whomever is interested to provide me ideas on point of law grounds because this Tribunal demonstrated they cannot be trusted. They changed virtually most of the discusion to favour the Employer. This is really frustrating but very good that one can see their mindset before the ultimate decision is reached. Help on how to draft a letter for a reconstituted ET will be appreciated. Help also to draft appeal to the EAT will be very much apprecaited as well.

 

Hello again. It's a specialised area of law, as has been said so I don't know how many caggers will be able to advise on this. You've been advised to speak to a lawyer, is this possible for you?

 

HB

[becky2585]

Yes, unfortunately I think reading a judgment and all the associated documents in the case, then drafting an appeal, may be a little more than you are going to get from a forum. A solicitor can help you, though.

[Sokoto]

A Solicitor gave a bill of £2,500. Where would that money come from? They appeared overwhelmed with the volume of the 8 archival files full of irrelevant information provided by the Employer. Interesting the Counsel for the Employer was using that as a weapon of the Claimant asking for it which was 100% wrong.

 

Please what are the steps to getting help here?

[honeybee13]

A Solicitor gave a bill of £2,500. Where would that money come from? They appeared overwhelmed with the volume of the 8 archival files full of irrelevant information provided by the Employer. Interesting the Counsel for the Employer was using that as a weapon of the Claimant asking for it which was 100% wrong.

 

Please what are the steps to getting help here?

 

Hello again.

 

Becky is better placed than me to answer, but I would say that the fee reflects the number of hours this person thinks it will take to go through the paperwork and give advice.

 

I'm not sure what you expect people here to do, could you elaborate a bit please?

 

HB

[becky2585]

HB is right. As a solicitor you are required to know every detail inside and out, and to thoroughly read each document, whether you believe them to be relevant or not.

 

One lever arch would usually take 2-3 hours to check. 8 files x 2 hours each x £200 per hour solicitors fee = £3,200. So that quote doesn't suprise me.

 

From experience with heavily documented cases, I can tell you the typical cost for a solicitor to run a case with that much evidence from beginning to end would be in the region of £30,000! They were probably overwhelmed because in employment law, it's very rare a bundle is any bigger than two lever arch files. The worst I saw was 9, and the bill was around 30k.

[Sokoto]

So how can I attach the reason so that after reading I can delete it.

 

I really need draft of how to present it to the Tribunal Panel prefereable sent to my inbox or private message so that the content may not be seen by the Tribunal Panel or Employer.

 

Also I need draft on the point of law to make the EAT immediately.

[ms_smith]

Erm, you take what was claimed, you put it next to what was decided by tribunal and you oppose referring to law?

[Emmzzi]

Sokoto, your requests from this forum are not reasonable. You need a lawyer!

[ms_smith]

In an interlocutory decision of the Tribunal, an adversed decision was reached against the Claimant. These include the refusal by the Tribunal Panel for disclosures of material which the Respondents have refused to disclose, refusal by the Tribunal to open up the names of the comparators, refusal of the Tribunal to order the disclosure of Organisation Chart etc. All requested information was refused by the Tribunal. The Claimant is of the view that the Tribunal may be biased and wanted help on how best to go about the case which has been adjourned to later the year.

 

Was this PHR before the whole panel lot?

You need to serve them application for a review to their decision. Simultaneously, issue appeal to EAT. Here's the form:

http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/forms/tribunals/emp-appeals/Form1NoticeOfAppeal.pdf

 

They may not neccesarily be biased. If other side has been pushing with proper brainwashing (especially if they are part of a big global brand), the panel may have well drifted away with them.

[Sokoto]

ms_smith,

The interlocutory decisions were made during the substantive hearing.

These were some of the comments. Could forumers reveiw and provide their understanding whether the Tribunal is biased or not biased.

 

The presentation of the case by the Claimant has not only been unorthodox but has involved the Tribunal in having to engage in a difficult process of mediation between itself and the Claimant. There has been considerable confusion in some of the Claimant's presentation and about these difficulties we will not at the moment say any more. Clearly, when we come to give our overall factual findings we will need to explain in some detail how the proceedings were conducted and why this has been a case that has substantially varied from the norm.

We have had firm evidence about Project A from {Respondents 1 and 2} which has not been challenged as a matter of fact and in respect of which there is no real possibility of any doubt. That evidence establishes that after {Project B} process there was a separate restructuring within the Respondent, that was called Project A, and which resulted in yet further redundancies and economies.

 

We do not make a final finding. We therefore make entirely clear that we have no final finding to make. However, we have heard a great deal of questioning and evidence about this and, to put matters neutrally, the Claimant's point is not sufficiently strong to even begin to tempt us to open up the names in the {Org Chart}. Therefore, for all the reasons which we have set out above, we are clear that his application must fail and we see no difficulty or objection to any of the points in opposition to the application that {Counsel} has urged upon us.

 

The Claimant's application at the outset, and repeated today, is that we should know all the {comparators}. The objection to this is principally on the ground that the Claimant will be able to trace through the papers certain pay data and other personal matters which should, if at all possible, be kept confidential. However, we have at no point felt obliged to ask for the names of the {comparators}, because we can perfectly understand the case without that information. We reject the Claimant's application.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Sokoto

[honeybee13]

Hello Sokoto.

 

I appreciate that you have questions that you would like answered, but I think it might be useful to bear in mind that this is meant to be a self help site, so members are unlikely to be able to do the work for you.

 

My best, HB

[Emmzzi]

The judgement reads to me like you didn't know what you were going in to do, were unclear in what you thought had gone wrong and the reparation you wanted, and they felt you were wasting their time with an incoherent and possibly rambling grudge. They have put this as politely as they can.

 

Don't go near this again ithout a lawyer to speak on your behalf.

[Sokoto]

It is most frustrating when people direct people to lawyers without a caveat. Lawyers are not free and free lawyers are not easy to get to take up a case of up to 25 days hearing. Most free lawyers are interested in cases lasting no more than 3 days. If you are willing to offer your service that would be a great help. If not it would be good to receive your kind contribution through my private message or through this open forum.

 

This is a case that the Judge stated during the first day of the hearing that nobody was permitted to record the hearing in any electronic media and that it was a criminal offence if the hearing was recorded. He said people are free to make written notes if they so wish. What is the judge afraid of? At the Courts every comments is recorded and people can request for transcript. Now only what the Judge has written count and even if the Claimant is the best orator nobody can tell. This is just simply unfair!

 

The Employment Judge was told to his face in the open Tribunal, after blatant persecution and oppression against the Claimant, that the EJ was biased by the Claimant. The Claimant then requested from the Judge permission to take the adverse decision to the EAT. The Judge told him he should make the application himself. Once again those reasons provided by the Judge came after the Claimant told him that the Tribunal was biased.

 

One thing I know of many English Judges, as I go to Court and Tribunal more frequently, is their command of using language to obfuscate the truth. Not surprising that the Judge had written comments that on the face of it looks like the Claimant was not making any sense. But when justice is not seen to be fair it created animosity within the civil society which many failed to understand.

 

My reading of those comments indicate to me that the Judge came with a predetermined mind. I cannot understand how a Judge can arrive at a “firm evidence” from one side alone (Respondents 1 and 2) to the case when the judge is also stating that he was not making a final finding?

 

This is the first case I have seen where a Judge refused names of comparators to be known because the Counsel said that to the Tribunal revealing the names would lead to the Claimant knowing pay data and personal matter in the disclosed bundle. It seemed that the Judge has not written the complete truth. Pay data, promotional history and training data including qualifications of the comparators were the requests made by the Claimant which were refused by the Judge as they were not initially disclosed by the Respondents. I think it was just a red herring by the judge as he knows most judges dont have the luxury of time to read 8 archival files!

Edited July 8, 2012 by Sokoto