Rossendales CTax Demand

[outlawla]

This website hasn't been updated for some time, but I hope this doesn't ruin your day to much to learn that your council at the time was spending an average of £374,831 per month of council taxpayer's money on incompetent Liberata.

[outlawla]

This statement is in reply to question 5 in my FOI request:

 

5. Provide Contract and guidance information provided to North Somerset's

contractors, namely Rossendales.

 

There is no contract between North Somerset Council and Rossendales. The contract

is between Liberata and Rossendales. The Freedom of Information Act does not apply

as Liberata are not a public body (see legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/36/

schedule/1?view=plain )

 

 

See if your council has something similar to this in any of its contracts/agreements:

 

Rossendales' Service Level Agreement

 

 

 

Item 3.58

 

"3.58 Rossendales understands and acknowledges the Council is subject to the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and agrees to assist and co-operate with the Council to enable it to comply fully with its disclosure obligations including supplying requested information within 48 hours of being asked to do so by the council."

Edited June 27, 2012 by outlawla

[hallowitch]

why don't you SAR the council you just never know what might turn up

 

I would certainly be looking to see if there was any activity on your account prior to payments not being accepted

 

I would also be looking to see if all letters they should have sent you before and after the liability order are included

 

did you receive a letter telling you to pay within 14 days before it went to rossers

 

some councils charge for this some don't

[BananaRepublic]

See if your council has something similar to this in any of its contracts/agreements:

 

Rossendales' Service Level Agreement

 

 

 

Item 3.58

 

Hi outlawla and caggas, sorry for the delay in replies, I have been over run with work, however I have this week off and have responded to their last letter and delivered by hand today. Whilst there, I enquired if our account was up to date which it was, I asked why Rossendales are still on our case. She, who I thought was a CTAX LA worker turned out to be a Liberata employee working on the front desk. I demanded I see a member of NSC staff. I had to make an appointment which is for this coming Thursday. The Local MP's office is meant to be on the case but they got flustered when I mentioned Liberata's track record and current reputation in North Somerset. The MPs office wants an update on Thursday and informed me the next step is the LGO.

 

The council absolutely deny any responsibility for CTax and are quite proud that their contractors are solely responsible for CT. The response from the front desk staff was a disgrace, I ask for a receipt for the hand delivered letter and the 'Lady' snivelled that we don't give receipts. I protested and she shoved a compliment slip with a received stamp on it. What these LA's fail to grasp is we are customers and they are public servants and should treat us a little more civil. I took a photo of a poster in the reception stating they have a zero tolerance on threads, intimidation and violence.

 

 

I reminded I don't take to threats and intimidation either and feel that they are demanding money with menaces by allowing Rossendales to continue their threat campaign.

 

Here's the text from my latest letter to the Assistant Director of Corporate Services:

 

Dear Mr.CTax Man

 

Thank you for your letter dated XX XXXX 2012. Despite the failings of your contractors, Liberata, online payment system, our account is fully up to date. Still, your department has vindictively applied for a second Liability Order for the full costs of this year. We will not be staying here for a full year that’s for sure! We have also been threatened by Rossendales for full payment and threats of Criminal Charges and a £500 fine should I not return an Income and Expenditure form to them. Since when has Rossendales had the legal right to prosecute for non return of an I&E form? This is pure fraud and demanding money with menaces. I am currently seeking criminal offences of fraudulently demanding money by acting ultra vires, vis claiming to be able to pursue criminal prosecution for failing to fill in their I & E form and have taken legal advice on this matter.

 

I have also found interesting information about Liberata, your primary contractor with regards to collections. It seems their track record is something to be desired and their constant failings of providing sufficient IT support is a legacy that even central Government fired them for. I’d be interested as to find out why NSC has a cosy relationship with this totally incompetent outfit and how NSC think they have no responsibility for Liberata’s actions. Is NSC seriously telling me there is no Framework Agreement between you and Liberata? Are you letting a Private Corporate Company deal with the public purse haphazardly? Considering Rossendales track record, in light of the recent ITV ‘Exposure’ programme, it seems NSC has employed the most unprofessional and cheapest outfits they could muster. I will be placing an advert in next week’s This Is Somerset appealing to those with similar experiences of NSC’s and Liberators objectionable practices with regards to Council Tax.

 

I will be claiming compensation from North Somerset Council (NSC) with regards to the stress this has put my family under. NSC’s vexatious actions are purely to harass and cause physiological stress and my doctor has been informed as I have suffered depression for a number of years. I was lucky that Mr John Penrose was campaigning in my area at the weekend and I have explained this scenario to him. His office is organizing an appointment for me to attend and as an interim measure, I will be making this a Police matter as the response from you and you FOI department is flaky to say the least. NSC do not recognize the ‘Duty of Care’ you are obliged to use when dealing with Tax Payers and the public as a whole and shunning the responsibility of code of conducts between NSC, Contractors and Sub Contractors is Illegal. Both the ‘The Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) Order 1996’ and the ‘Local Government Finance Act 1992’ apply to NSC and I have been studying this thoroughly.

 

I feel I have expired all avenues with North Somerset Council and after seeking advice will be reporting this matter to the Police and the LGO. I will also be appealing this last Liability Order through the High Court.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Banana Man

From the Banana Republic of Britain

 

 

Edited July 4, 2012 by BananaRepublic

[BananaRepublic]

why don't you SAR the council you just never know what might turn up

 

I would certainly be looking to see if there was any activity on your account prior to payments not being accepted

 

I would also be looking to see if all letters they should have sent you before and after the liability order are included

 

did you receive a letter telling you to pay within 14 days before it went to rossers

 

some councils charge for this some don't

 

Hi Hallowitch,

 

I have SAR'd them today by post, it would be interesting to see what they have. We received nothing from NSC prior to the Rossers 14 day letter which expires Friday. Looking forward to the knuckle head visit. Got CCTV and video camera finely tuned. Can't wait for the threats of prison.

[outlawla]

...I took a photo of a poster in the reception stating they have a zero tolerance on threads, intimidation and violence. I reminded I don't take to threats and intimidation either and feel that they are demanding money with menaces by allowing Rossendales to continue their threat campaign...

 

 

What function do these councils think they serve...public servants or dictators...? Increasingly it seems they're fulfilling the role of dictator.

 

Ironically North East Lincolnshire council puts this notice, including a Fraud Hotline telephone number, on their council tax bills:

 

FRAUD If you have any reasonable suspicion of fraud, corruption or malpractice, please telephone the Fraud Hotline on (01472) 323334. You do not have to give your name if you don't want to.

 

 

However, when it is called to report the Council and their bailiffs for FRAUD, the operator states it does not mean that kind of fraud, i.e. the fraud which is legal.

 

A couple of interesting reads:

 

• Crimes against the state
  

"..

His case is strong enough on its own merits. In this country, we are not free. We buy an annual license in order to stay out of jail. The Man calls it Council Tax, but it is our "freedom tax". Refuse to pay and you go to jail – automatically, without anything resembling a trial, and without remission

..."

 

• Roger Hayes Arrested, Tried In Secret Court, Imprisoned
  

"...

Denied the right to argue his case, denied the right to a Jury, denied the right for the public to see justice being done, Roger was imprisoned in the secretive gulag system that Britain has become in 2012..

.."

[BananaRepublic]

It seems the rules are just made up and are particular to each individual LA. The LGO's report on CTax recovery is quite an eye opener http://www.lgo.org.uk/GetAsset.aspx?id=fAAxADQANgA5AHwAfABUAHIAdQBlAHwAfAAwAHwA0, it seems the LGO is just another toothless Quango. It's fine when they investigate what happens to our rubbish and helping council's decide what colour bins to have, but when it looks at LA's draconian methods in ctax collections, it doesn't even touch the tip of the iceberg.

 

It's quite clear outlawla from my experience so far that the Council is operating like it's just something out of Assad's regime. We have the cheek (as a country) to dictate to countries like Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran etc etc to be civilised when in fact, this country has become worse and resembles something out of the Stasi regime. This whole experience has made me wish I am / was witholding CTax wilfully, I now detest handing over £130 per month to this totally incompetent, corrupt organisation and their cosy costly relationships with Liberata / Capita et al.

 

The Roger Hayes case is quite interesting, I think his case is more to do with him wanting a new bank system and his views on both Local and central Government rather than holding back pay council tax. The establishment want to silence people like him. Isn't this the reason we bombed Libya and Iraq? In fact, we are just as bad, if not worse when it comes to silencing people. The Government are pooping themselves hoping a civil uprising won't occur as we all find out how these, politicians, corporations and banks are milking us all dry, it only takes a few Roger Hayes to create a melting pot of anger / rage. God help them!

[outlawla]

Re; http://www.lgo.org.uk/GetAsset.aspx?...lAHwAfAAwAHwA0

 

There is clearly a need for a revised complaints procedure involving two Local Government Ombudsmen;

 

One which exists in the current form, but renamed "LGO (Government)" which remains biased in the favour of councils. The other could be called "LGO (Complainant)" which represents, fairly, the grievances of the party bringing the complaint.

 

An adjudicator could then consider the two cases put forward and make independent judgment.

[brassnecked]

Re; http://www.lgo.org.uk/GetAsset.aspx?...lAHwAfAAwAHwA0

 

There is clearly a need for a revised complaints procedure involving two Local Government Ombudsmen;

 

One which exists in the current form, but renamed "LGO (Government)" which remains biased in the favour of councils. The other could be called "LGO (Complainant)" which represents, fairly, the grievances of the party bringing the complaint.

 

An adjudicator could then consider the two cases put forward and make independent judgment.

Well Ok so long as the adjudicator isn't "Got At", as in Jury intimidation.

[outlawla]

Well Ok so long as the adjudicator isn't "Got At", as in Jury intimidation.

 

Then the procedure would require independent witnesses, perhaps members of the public forced to do this duty, in a similar way to jury service.

[brassnecked]

Then the procedure would require independent witnesses, perhaps members of the public forced to do this duty, in a similar way to jury service.

This goes soo deep and treatens the cosy enforcement cartel, that sinister men with dark glasses and flak jackets will be seen hanging around the "jurors" homes

[BananaRepublic]

A small victory, NSC, well, Liberata have agreed the payments go back to the Council on account I pay both £90 Liability costs in the next two months installments, however, I am not stopping there:

 

• I want to know how both Liability orders we're rubber stamped by the court in the morning when the cases we're not due to be heard until after lunch indicating the orders we're issued before any hearing takes place.
   
  
• I am still waiting to hear from the Magistrates court questioning the above fact and asking if the Judge, not a District judge swore in his position (Oath) that day. I have two letters from the courts saying they are consulting their legal team with regards to my questions but six weeks later still no reply.
   
  
• I am also still questioning the answers to my FOI and letter to the Corporate Director whereby NSC state they have no framework or agreement with Liberata and / or Rossendales.
  

 

My appointment with the council was this morning and guess what, when questioned, it turns out the lady interviewing me was Liberata, not an NSC employee. She said NSC won't deal with clients direct! In all fairness, this time she was a polite person who did seem to do all she can to help (So full credit to her) At least she wasn't thumping the desk like the last 'Lady' I spoke to.

 

I find it absolutely disgraceful that NSC have no customer facing people AT ALL and hide upstairs using a phone to consult. Totally inappropriate, totally draconian and typical of the Authoritarian attitude we are all walking into.

 

I haven't finished yet as I am now trying to get a high court hearing as I have all the evidence I need to prove the Magistrate courts is nothing more than an administrational Kangaroo Court.

 

All through this I have refused to deal with those legalised thugs at Rossendales and am determined to act on their threatening letter in which I am threatened with Court Action and a £500 fine should I not return the I&E form they sent, they have no right to demand this and poor administration from NSC is responsible for their threats. I must also point out that my local MP's office lied to me saying they we're going to call NSC with regards to my case, I had it confirmed they have not and couldn't give a monkies. Therefore, my conservative vote will definitely be going elsewhere in November, I will be thanking Mr Penrose for the rhetoric he gave but lack of promised action.

 

One thing is for sure, today's Britain is akin to East Germany back in the 70s and 80s, there is no one in officialdom to help you out. Thank god for strong spirited people that frequent forums such as this. Thanks to those Caggers who offered both moral and sound support!!

 

This has proved that people power is strongest, don't rely on officialdom for nothing.

 

This whole saga has opened up a can of worms for me, now my eyes are opened to how we are treated and milked, I am determined to see this right through to the end. Like I say, I will get more than my monies worth in terms of Council Tax paid and I loath paying NSC a penny.

[outlawla]

If you decide to involve a representative, this councillor may be worth contacting. I'm sure given his track record, he, over anyone else, would be likely to lend a sympathetic ear.

 

What about the £90 liability order application costs...? Are they classed as summons or liability order costs? Or, a combination of both split between the two and imposed in separate stages?

 

Can't find any reference to them for NSC.

[BananaRepublic]

Thanks outlawla, that's a gem.

 

Carl Francis-Pester, the Easton-in-Gordano representative on the unitary authority, was handed a liability order by magistrates at North Somerset Courthouse on September 8 last year.

The order related to non-payment of council tax for his home in Ashgrove, Clevedon, for which he was required to pay a total of £1,288.31 for the 2011/12 financial year.

Cllr Francis-Pester, who is also a Clevedon town councillor, had paid £383.63 but was given an order for the balance of £904.69. He was also ordered to pay £85 in court costs.

When contacted by the Times this week, Cllr Francis-Pester confirmed he has since paid the outstanding balance.

 

I'll certainly be asking if he got the same threats from Rossendales.

 

The costs, Liability 1 £90 and Liability 2 £90. They (NSC) automatically went for the second liability in order to charge me for the rest of the year. Why would it be £85 for him and £90 for me, special privaledges? or are they just making these up as they go along. His and my Liability orders we're from the same court.

[outlawla]

....Why would it be £85 for him and £90 for me, special privaledges? or are they just making these up as they go along. His and my Liability orders we're from the same court.

 

Ironically, the fact that the costs awarded are different, points, to the process operating more like it should, albeit in a very small way. The point I'm making is the costs awarded to the council by the Magistrates should be determined at the liability order hearing, not pre-determined like they normally are. However, I'd guess this is an administration error rather than the Magistrate using his discretion in awarding appropriate costs.

 

It still doesn't alter the fact that £85 or £90 are not reasonable cost incurred by the council in connection with obtaining the order and a breach of R34 of the council tax regulations which will further be breached if costs for both the summons and obtaining the liability order have been imposed at the summons stage. I'm guessing this is what NSC do.

 

Another thread here probes into this.

[BananaRepublic]

Wow, I admire your scrutinising outlawla!!Fascinating and enlightening reading for sure. My problem is, my council are gutless and have stone walled any questions. Replies I have had have come off the standard reply scripts these people or indoctrinated with.

 

I'm particularly interested in that letter from the council to the courts dictating the new costs, is the council above the law, perhaps they ARE the Law? I'm going to try getting this info out of NSC and check the similarities, if any.

[outlawla]

....I'm particularly interested in that letter from the council to the courts dictating the new costs, is the council above the law, perhaps they ARE the Law? I'm going to try getting this info out of NSC and check the similarities, if any.

 

Unusual for a council to hand stuff like this out on a plate. Must have taken their eye off the ball for a moment.

 

It's a bit of an eye-opener if you click the links in post #5 of this thread.

[BananaRepublic]

I have reported the fraudulent letter threat from Rossendales to NSC's Fraud Report Line and the Police 'Action Fraud' site:

 

 

Dear North Somerset Council,

 

I would like to bring to your attention an example of demanding money by menaces and making threats of legal action amounting to fraudulent behavior. Rossendales, a Bailiff contractor operating with Liberata and North Somerset Council have sent me a letter with a threat of a criminal prosecution and a £500 fine if I fail to complete an income and expenditure form. Rossendales, a renowned rogue bailiff outfit which featured on ITV’s exposure not so long ago seem to think they can issue threats and are legally in a position to carry these threats out.

 

I have kept the evidence of this fraudulent act and will also make this a Police matter. A copy of the letter is attached below. I am in particular, keen to find out where Rossendales think they can prosecute a criminal offence by not returning this form. Question, are you saying I have committed a criminal offence. I am sure the Police would like to know about this odious crime I have committed.

 

North Somerset Council is entirely responsible for the actions of your contractors and / or sub contractors and the framework you are obliged to manage between them. I have taken this letter as a very serious threat and wish to enquire as to who is responsible for contractors and tendering such work. If you fail to provide this information, I will be obliged to report this situation to the LGO for further auctioning. I also intend to gather information with regards to other constituents who have suffered the same illegal threats.

 

>

 

I trust you will assist in this matter.

 

Yours Sincerely,

Edited July 5, 2012 by BananaRepublic

[BananaRepublic]

Letter to MPs Office:

 

 

Thank you for your reply. Only part of my plight is resolved with North Somerset Council (NSC) I am particularly annoyed at the threatening letter from Rossendales, a sub contractor used by a principal contractor of NSC called Liberator. I am sure you have seen the letter, if not I have attached the report to this email. It is a Criminal Offence in this country to send out threatening letters, demanding money with menaces and to make threats of Criminal Prosecutions / Fines from a private body such as the rogue company, namely, Rossendales. This company is acting on behalf of NSC and after seeking legal advice, the letter surmounts to no more than an illegal threat of prosecution indicating I am committing a Criminal Act myself. No Bailiff company can act on behalf of or prosecute criminal cases without either Police involvement and / or council intervention.

 

The truth is, I have opened pandoras box, until this episode, I was ignorant to the fact that these practices even go on at all, I thought I lived in a civilized country. I thought our recent Governments have taken us to war to fight against counties that impose such draconian acts and threats to their people. I am disgusted that vulnerable families may be subject to these threats and who are not in a position or are simply scared to do anything. The CAB, a fine organization they may be are toothless and in general, tow the line with Council ‘policies’ due to the direct involvement they have with local authorities. This doesn’t leave the public with many choices. Some people may not be able to afford the criminal charges these companies hike on top of their bills, the council has even inflated court charges by well over 100% when in fact it costs no more than approx £3-£5 per liability order. As for the LGO, I have research them and they seem nothing more than a quango interested in their £15 Million pound finance to help decide environmental issues etc etc

 

I don’t expect John’s office to support my cause as I am now determined to expose this sheer profiteering on peoples misery. I’m lucky enough to be able to afford these criminal charges but I will fight and expose this illicit profiteering racquet which seems to apply to ALL local Authorities but I will use NSC as a shining example. This is something the Daily Telegraph warned about and I will help them expose this further.

 

I get the distinct impression this is something the Conservative representatives in this constituency will not want to get involved in. This isn’t a case of deciding what colour bins we should all be subjected to, this is defrauding the public. It costs NSC well over £345,000 a month for NSC staff to hide behind their telephones and they hope we get the impression they are totally unaccountable. I am happy that I have covertly recorded every encounter with NSC, it seems we are going back to the draconian dark ages where those in power hide behind thugs. The NSC customer service, and I use that term very, very loosely, is a disgrace. The Council should be a transparent organization answerable to the public they serve, instead, they have become an organization that hides away behind the private enterprises we fund.

 

If it’s any merit, the Liberata lady I spoke to today (Because no one from NSC had the nerve to see me) was polite and tried all she can to help, she deserves a better job as she at least seemed human and didn’t get aggressive like the last ‘Lady’ I saw who started to bang the desk.

 

Thanks again for your reply, I trust though, as so typical in this country, this subject is far too taboo for MPs to want to get involved in, after all, it might expose more than we all bargain for.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Banana Man from the

Banana Republic of North Somerset

[hallowitch]

you say you new nothing about it until you got the 14 day letter from rosies do you mean the letter the council/Liberata should have sent you

The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) (Amendment) Regulations 1998

Information preliminary to distress

 

 

7.—(1) In regulation 45(1) (distress)(1), for the words from “the authority” to “may” there is substituted “the authority which applied for the order may, subject to regulation 45A,”.

 

(2) After regulation 45 there is inserted—

 

“Information preliminary to distress

 

 

45A.—(1) No distress shall be made under these regulations unless, no less than 14 days before a visit in connection with the distress is first made to the premises where it is to be levied, the authority have sent to the debtor written notice of the matters specified in paragraph (2) below.

 

(2) The matters are—

 

(a)the fact that a liability order has been made against the debtor;

 

(b)the amount in respect of which the liability order was made and, where this is a different amount, the amount which remains outstanding;

 

©a warning that unless the amount specified has been paid before the expiry of 14 days beginning on the date of the sending of the notice, distress may be levied;

 

(d)notice that if distress is levied further costs will be incurred by the debtor;

 

(e)the fees prescribed in Schedule 5 to these Regulations;

 

(f)the address and telephone number at which the debtor can communicate with the authority.”

 

(1)

 

Amended by S.I. 1993/773.

 

this ombudsman's report about Vertex Thurrock council and Mr North (good old Mr north a lot of happy people in thurrock that day) says it all contractors think they can get away with anything and it also points out the local authority are responsible for there contractors

 

this is the thread (there is a good post from tomtubby)

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?247699-Local-Government-Ombudsman-Press-report-local-authority-contractor-charges-illegal

 

this is the ombudsman's report

http://www.lgo.org.uk/GetAsset.aspx?id=fAAxADEANQAzAHwAfABGAGEAbABzAGUAfAB8ADAAfAA1

[BananaRepublic]

Thanks Hallowitch. The second LO that followed the last was for the year 2012. We knew nothing of the second LO until Rossendales Threat letter came through. There's a mine of info on that thread, thanks again, very useful, I'm reading though it now. It's disgraceful how these LAs act. The courts should be just as accountable as the LA's. The fact is they (Council Exec's and Judges) probably all socially mingle together and hatch plans how they can shaft us all without getting us to bend over. It gives a bit of faith that the LGO might have some sway now and then, but they have been awfully quiet in recent times. Are they under pressure to cover up? It seems, as Arthur Daily might say, 'a nice little earner' for the Councils of this land to extort money out of the unfortunate and then try to hide behind their buddies in the likes of Liberata, capita et al..

[BananaRepublic]

How do they investigate themself? This makes me laugh...."Give us a chance to stop these thieves" Believe me, they won't have to look far

 

[BananaRepublic]

Action Fraud have replied and want me to contact them, they have said:

 

From the information provided it would appear you have been a intended victim of an Advanced Fee Fraud.

 

here goes...

[outlawla]

How do they investigate themself? This makes me laugh...."Give us a chance to stop these thieves" Believe me, they won't have to look far

 

 

 

The irony! Are they completely mad or do they think we are?

 

 

Action Fraud have replied and want me to contact them, they have said:

 

From the information provided it would appear you have been a intended victim of an Advanced Fee Fraud.

 

here goes...

 

Keep us posted.

 

If they are going to investigate this, "Action Fraud", I should think will be inundated with similar complaints.

Edited July 6, 2012 by outlawla

[brassnecked]

Advanced fee fraud? surely now every bailiff who loads the fees before even visiting, and the jolly crew of chancers from Sherfarce will be quaking in their boots at the thought of being investigated?