Gaining a possession order without a tenancy agreement

[TimeConsuming]

Hi,

 

This is a question about the correct process for me to apply for a Possession Order given the complex circumstances of the property's occupation.

 

I am the new –since May- leasholder of a flat. It was only affordable for me because it comes with a complex occupier problem.

 

Five years ago, when the property was inherited, the ‘tenant’ claimed to be regulated. From her figures, she was 12 when she took over the tenancy (she is currently 52.) That person does not live in the UK. I have a land registry document showing she owns a house in the USA. She is employed in a school in the USA and her name appears on their staff list. She has a Linked in profile stating that her work for the last 10 years has been in America. I have a screen shot of a facebook page where she says she is trying to earn extra money “to afford a trip to the UK in the summer as flights are really expensive.” She has not been on the electoral roll at the UK property for years –if at all.

 

The property appears – according the current electoral roll –to be occupied by her nephew and his girlfriend. All information from facebook! The nephew registered a business at the property in August last year – as listed by Companies House.

 

I went round to the flat and knocked on the door but got no answer. I popped a letter addressed to ‘the current occupiers’ introducing myself and explaining that I had no paperwork for a tenant in the property so could they contact me, by email or using the SAE, and let me know basic information about themselves – identities etc. their rent and any proposed leaving date etc. (it was a 1 page form with mainly tick boxes).

 

I heard nothing so sent a recorded delivery letter to the registered company with a duplicate and new letter saying if I didn’t hear from them I would begin proceedings to gain possession of the property.

 

I am not sure what notice to serve or possession order to apply for!

 

As there is no Assured short hold tenancy it seems the Section 21 notice is invalid. As they did not forcibly gain entry they are not trespassers. The original tenant had no legal right to allow them a tenancy or license to stay – as she is not resident in the country.

 

What is the correct process for evicting the occupiers?

 

Can I apply for an Interim Possession Order for trespassers even though I knew someone was probably in the flat when it became mine – over 28 days ago? Are there any other grounds on which I can apply?

 

Any help would be very much appreciated.

[45002]

Hi,

 

This is a question about the correct process for me to apply for a Possession Order given the complex circumstances of the property's occupation.

 

I am the new –since May- leaseholder of a flat. It was only affordable for me because it comes with a complex occupier problem.

 

Five years ago, when the property was inherited, the ‘tenant’ claimed to be regulated. From her figures, she was 12 when she took over the tenancy (she is currently 52.) That person does not live in the UK. I have a land registry document showing she owns a house in the USA. She is employed in a school in the USA and her name appears on their staff list. She has a Linked in profile stating that her work for the last 10 years has been in America. I have a screen shot of a facebook page where she says she is trying to earn extra money “to afford a trip to the UK in the summer as flights are really expensive.” She has not been on the electoral roll at the UK property for years –if at all.

 

The property appears – according the current electoral roll –to be occupied by her nephew and his girlfriend. All information from facebook! The nephew registered a business at the property in August last year – as listed by Companies House.

 

I went round to the flat and knocked on the door but got no answer. I popped a letter addressed to ‘the current occupiers’ introducing myself and explaining that I had no paperwork for a tenant in the property so could they contact me, by email or using the SAE, and let me know basic information about themselves – identities etc. their rent and any proposed leaving date etc. (it was a 1 page form with mainly tick boxes).

 

I heard nothing so sent a recorded delivery letter to the registered company with a duplicate and new letter saying if I didn’t hear from them I would begin proceedings to gain possession of the property.

 

I am not sure what notice to serve or possession order to apply for!

 

As there is no Assured short hold tenancy it seems the Section 21 notice is invalid. As they did not forcibly gain entry they are not trespassers. The original tenant had no legal right to allow them a tenancy or license to stay – as she is not resident in the country.

 

What is the correct process for evicting the occupiers?

 

Can I apply for an Interim Possession Order for trespassers even though I knew someone was probably in the flat when it became mine – over 28 days ago? Are there any other grounds on which I can apply?

 

Any help would be very much appreciated.

 

1st question is

 

What legal checks did you make before you became the leaseholder and new LL,What did the solicitor advise you,what documents did you see,who was paying the rent and who to and so on.

 

Who inherited the property 5 years ago ? from who ?

 

If she moved in before 15th January 1989,she would indeed be Regulated Tenant under 1977 rent act,if that is the case forget any Possession order.

 

If she age 52 now,born 1959 and she would have been age 29 in 1989,the tenancy could have started in 1978 when she was 18 !

 

She could have sub let with the permission of the previous landlord

 

but

 

There may be ground for Possession under ground 6 of 1977 rent act

the tenant has assigned or sublet the whole

of the property without the landlord’s consent

even then it's only discretionary grounds,you have to prove the case in court.

 

The fact she not on the electoral roll is meaningless

 

Are you sure it's the same person living/working in the USA ?

 

You need to consult a solicitor specialising in housing to gain a Possession order,because as you said it's complex circumstances and any possession order must be enforced by Bailiffs...

 

or you could end up with a Huge legal bill and nothing to show at the end.

Edited June 20, 2012 by 45002

[TimeConsuming]

Thank you. That's very helpful.

 

The original 'tenant' was paying £429pcm to the previous leaseholder. It is the same woman as living in USA as the photograph on her passport is the same as on her facebook and linked in pages and her nephew and his girlfriend have her in their facebook friends lists.

 

The previous leaseholder inherited the flat when her husband died. It had been his and his mother's before that and was managed by an estate agent who began this tenancy in the same of the woman's sister when the USA resident was 12. They are most probably friends of the family of the estate agent and when the genuine regulated tenant died, the new agreement was set up as a favour but as it was so long ago. When the previous landlord began to manage the properties for herself, she discovered that of the four regulated tenants she had, this one was anomalous. As a result, five years ago the current USA resident was asked to provide information to substantiate the tenancy and that she lived there. She said she would send a driving licence but only ever sent her passport. She write a letter saying she did not have to tell anyone who was living in the property and a solicitor wrote back saying that, if she was a regulated tenant, she did have to. The previous leaseholder has carried out some maintenance in the property and has never met the USA resident - always being let in by someone else. Neighbours in the street who have known people coming and going from the flat, have never seen her and are willing to sign statements to that effect.

 

I have also found that they nephew has registered a company with Companies House at the address.

The previous landlord will provide a statement to confirm that she was not notified of any other tenants or a business - even though the previous landlord arranged the buildings insurance.

 

How can a person substantiate a claim to a regulated tenancy without a rent book or tenancy agreement?

 

If the person is living abroad and has done so for several years and owns a property abroad, doesn't that breech the terms of a regulated tenancy?

 

Thanks again.

[45002]

Thank you. That's very helpful.

 

The original 'tenant' was paying £429pcm to the previous leaseholder. It is the same woman as living in USA as the photograph on her passport is the same as on her facebook and linked in pages and her nephew and his girlfriend have her in their facebook friends lists.

 

The previous leaseholder inherited the flat when her husband died. It had been his and his mother's before that and was managed by an estate agent who began this tenancy in the same of the woman's sister when the USA resident was 12. They are most probably friends of the family of the estate agent and when the genuine regulated tenant died, the new agreement was set up as a favour but as it was so long ago. When the previous landlord began to manage the properties for herself, she discovered that of the four regulated tenants she had, this one was anomalous. As a result, five years ago the current USA resident was asked to provide information to substantiate the tenancy and that she lived there. She said she would send a driving licence but only ever sent her passport. She write a letter saying she did not have to tell anyone who was living in the property and a solicitor wrote back saying that, if she was a regulated tenant, she did have to. The previous leaseholder has carried out some maintenance in the property and has never met the USA resident - always being let in by someone else. Neighbours in the street who have known people coming and going from the flat, have never seen her and are willing to sign statements to that effect.

 

I have also found that they nephew has registered a company with Companies House at the address.

The previous landlord will provide a statement to confirm that she was not notified of any other tenants or a business - even though the previous landlord arranged the buildings insurance.

 

How can a person substantiate a claim to a regulated tenancy without a rent book or tenancy agreement?

 

If the person is living abroad and has done so for several years and owns a property abroad, doesn't that breech the terms of a regulated tenancy?

 

Thanks again.

 

Still a bit confuseing,but

 

If it is Succession rights then under 1977 rent act,when a Regulated tenant dies,there are allowed succession twice...

 

Regulated tenant to Assured tenant to Assured tenant..

 

you could even have sub letting with Assured tenant with permission from previous landlord who ever that was ?

 

The only way you going to sort out this

 

Complex set of Circumstances

 

Is by seeing a solicitor specialising in housing law and ask if it worth going to court to gain a possession order and if granted ? any possession order must be enforced by bailiffs.

 

This is going to cost you a lot of money and even more money if you get it wrong !

Edited June 20, 2012 by 45002

[mariner51]

I assume OP purchased, rather than 'acquired' property from previous owner as Leasehold.

What property/tenancy checks were conducted by conveyancing solics? Info supplied?

Did OP serve Notice of change of owner/LL on presumed Ts at time of purchase?

IMO any Court repo action would have to brought against both current Ts and last recorded Regulated T (if alive)

AFAIK succession rules are stringent and can rarely be 'assigned' by a living Reg T.

Electoral roll entries are important as they provide a source of info for credit reg agencies.

 

OP needs to engage services of solic specialising in L&T property Law to provide clarification.

[45002]

Hello

 

TimeConsuming

Can I ask you one more question

.

and when the genuine regulated tenant died, the new agreement was set up as a favour but as it was so long ago.

 

When the Regulated tenant died,do you know what year the RT died,was anyone was living with the RT at the time of there death and how long where they living with the RT....

Edited June 20, 2012 by 45002

[TimeConsuming]

Hi,

 

It is assumption that the original regulated tenant died at some point in the 70s. The property was being managed by an agent and the owner was not aware of what was happening...she has now died as has her son.

 

The current USA tenant claimed that she automatically took over her sister's tenancy and must continue at a regulated rater. Her sister is still alive as are her parents. At that point, by my understanding, the tenancy should have reverted to an AST even if the USA tenant wanted to stay.

 

What information can I use to show she does not reside at the property? Apparently under data protection, location companies cannot tell who is on any utility bills. I believe that she has no current paperwork connecting her to the property.

 

As far as I am aware, the previous LL did not notify anyone of changes to ownership - as the freehold ownership has not changed and she sought legal advice on that point. I have written to the current occupants introducing myself but have not had a response.

 

What information would the USA tenant need to show that she had any legitimate claim to regulated status? Surely living and working abroad nullifies any rights?

 

You're all being wonderful, many thanks.

[TimeConsuming]

And a last point, if anyone can recommend a great solicitor for me to get advice from so I know what action to take, when, that would also be great.

 

Thanks again,

alex

[45002]

Hi,

 

It is assumption that the original regulated tenant died at some point in the 70s. The property was being managed by an agent and the owner was not aware of what was happening...she has now died as has her son.

 

The current USA tenant claimed that she automatically took over her sister's tenancy and must continue at a regulated rater. Her sister is still alive as are her parents. At that point, by my understanding, the tenancy should have reverted to an AST even if the USA tenant wanted to stay.

 

What information can I use to show she does not reside at the property? Apparently under data protection, location companies cannot tell who is on any utility bills. I believe that she has no current paperwork connecting her to the property.

 

As far as I am aware, the previous LL did not notify anyone of changes to ownership - as the freehold ownership has not changed and she sought legal advice on that point. I have written to the current occupants introducing myself but have not had a response.

 

What information would the USA tenant need to show that she had any legitimate claim to regulated status? Surely living and working abroad nullifies any rights?

 

You're all being wonderful, many thanks.

 

The Rent act came into force in 1977,back then she could have automatically had Succession rights before 1977 act !

 

Or the 2 sister's could have had a Joint Tenancy as Regulated tenants after 1977 act,one left and the RT carried on with 1 sister ?

 

"AST" Assured short hold Tenancy did not come into force until 1988 housing act.

 

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/renting_and_leasehold/private_tenancies/regulated_tenancies

 

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/renting_and_leasehold/private_tenancies/assured_tenancies

 

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/renting_and_leasehold/private_tenancies/assured_shorthold_tenancies

 

 

You say she lives and works in USA,I dont really think that matter at all to be honest.

 

She could have sub let with the permission of the previous landlord,it's up to you and a Solicitor to prove she did not have permission to sub let in court.

 

Just to add you need to sever notice under Landlord and Tenant Act 1985

 

Who you are,your name and address and proof you are the new landlord so you can legal claim rent from the Tenant who ever that may be ?

 

As long as the rent is kept up to date,there not much else i think you can do.....

 

Finding a specialist Solicitor in housing,contact The law Society

 

http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/choosingandusing/specialise.law

Edited June 20, 2012 by 45002

[TimeConsuming]

Thank you again.

 

The current usa person does not have her name on any register and as the sister's name was associated when the usa sister was 12, so her name could not have been on any lease, there is no way they could both have been regulated. Also, as the parents were never regulated, or registered at the property, they can not have passed it on to their children.

 

I can get confirmation, written and sworn, from the previous landlord that no permission to sublet was ever given and no evidence she was a legitimate regulated tenant was ever found.

 

Of all the reading I have done about Regulated tenancies, not living in the property appeared to nullify all the rights. Owning another property also nullified as in that instance one is not considered in need of financial securities.

 

Which notice under the 1985 Act is the right one to serve?

 

I'll look for the solicitor too.

 

Many thanks gain.

[45002]

Electoral roll entries are important as they provide a source of info for credit reg agencies.

Erm yeah right

http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/focus-on-items/6-million-not-registered

 

The current usa person does not have her name on any register

 

If your talking about UK electoral role,it's estimated that up to Six million people are Not Registered to vote in the UK

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/dec/14/six-million-voters-unregistered

 

http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/145366/Great-Britains-electoral-registers-2011.pdf

 

Thank you again.

 

Of all the reading I have done about Regulated tenancies, not living in the property appeared to nullify all the rights. Owning another property also nullified as in that instance one is not considered in need of financial securities. .

 

May I ask where you get from, not living in the property appeared to nullify all the rights and owning another property nullify all the rights of a RT ?

 

Thank you again.

 

Which notice under the 1985 Act is the right one to serve?

 

 

 

You need to write a letter to the tenant ??? with your name and address,proof your the new landlord/lease holder and details of where to pay rent,by cheque,DD or standing order,so you can legal demand Rent...

Edited June 21, 2012 by 45002

[mariner51]

"Erm yeah right"

 

45002- lack of electoral role entry does not mean non-uk resident, but those 6 million people will find it harder to obtain credit, mobile phone etc contract and rented accom if checked by a CRA.

A Regulated T is likely to have a Fair Rent determination. Regional Rent Officer (VOA) may be able to assist. I believe the current Fair Rent Register can be searched from the VOA website.

The OP will have to do some detective work with historic records /solicitors if several persons in the know are now deceased.

Depending on the financial importance to OP, employing a qualified Will benefactor tracing agent or genealogist may be able to assist? Just a thought!

[45002]

"Erm yeah right"

 

45002- lack of electoral role entry does not mean non-uk resident, but those 6 million people will find it harder to obtain credit, mobile phone etc contract and rented accom if checked by a CRA.

A Regulated T is likely to have a Fair Rent determination. Regional Rent Officer (VOA) may be able to assist. I believe the current Fair Rent Register can be searched from the VOA website.

The OP will have to do some detective work with historic records /solicitors if several persons in the know are now deceased.

Depending on the financial importance to OP, employing a qualified Will benefactor tracing agent or genealogist may be able to assist? Just a thought!

 

"Really"

 

Perhaps for a start off mariner51 if you posted correctly using words and stopped using abbreviations all the time which is just been lazy,people would be able to understand your post's in the 1st place,Not everyone can understand your flipping abbreviations....

 

Yes I know those 6 million people will find it harder to obtain credit, mobile phone etc contract and rented accommodation if checked by a CRA

 

PAYG mobiles phones you know dont need credit checks for one.

 

The trend Not to register for a vote,start back in the 90's when the Poll Tax came in,remember that mariner 51 by a friend of yours I believe called "Maggie"

 

I'm one of those Regulated Tenant you have a dislike for so i do know a bit about RT and it's not compulsory to have a fair rent registered,but most do anyway !

 

Yes you can search the register https://ebusiness.voa.gov.uk/err/ your find me on it !

 

Details of rent register only back to 2003,before then it's a paper search given the few million of RT are in the UK, it would take some time search and All records are now held up north in one huge office.

Edited June 22, 2012 by 45002

[The Carpet Cleaners]

"Really"

 

Perhaps for a start off mariner51 if you posted correctly using words and stopped using abbreviations all the time which is just been lazy,people would be able to understand your post's in the 1st place,Not everyone can understand your flipping abbreviations....

The trend Not to register for a vote,start back in the 90's when the Poll Tax came in,remember that mariner 51 by a friend of yours I believe called "Maggie"

 

I thought the idea was to help posters with problems. 45002 this is the second regular poster and peoples champion that you have lambasted due to personal disagreements. I think it would be in everyone's intrest if you detached yourself emotionally and applied yourself practically to peoples issues on here.

[45002]

I thought the idea was

 

Don't worry about it Carpet Cleaner,reading mariner51 post since he joined CAG im sure he is big enough and bold enough and very capable of speaking for himself without any help from you or anyone else...

 

In the end it's only words on a screen....

Edited June 23, 2012 by 45002