Again another failure to Notify Fine

[poor-boy]

Hi All,

 

I have for many years lay in the background of this very informative forum when ever I needed any info.

 

And now as others I have recevied two (yep two) fines for failure to notify disposal of vehicle - for two different cars sold three days apart and the V5's (part where you sell to a motor trader) sent off using the same post box on the same day (a Sunday) as the V5's had to be given to the motor trader.

 

I have called DVLA and informed them that I followed the correct procedures as stated on the V5 and posted the documents by 1st class post and the dates they were posted.

 

DVLA spokesperson has stated that they have not recivieved them and the fine stands (I am over due on the one by two days as I have been abroad for three weeks). I asked them for a breakdown of the losses they have incurred from these "alleged" offences and have been advised "Nil".

 

I have now been reading through as many posts as possible on here but can not find a letter template to reply with or something to state my grounds.

 

But on the 5th May I sold a car to a private individual and sent the V5 to DVLA and they reciveived it and confirmed it in writing.

 

The above cars were just me being greedy and I wanted them all till the wife said NO!!

 

I thank you all in advance for your help

[poor-boy]

No body??

[2ltr16valve]

There is plenty of information on here already, a case very recently won and one just before that. Fight it all the way, all you have too do is post the document. That is it ! nothing more, nothing less.

[dw190]

ACTS INTERPRETATION ACT 1901 - SECT 29

 

Meaning of service by post

(1) Where an Act authorizes or requires any document to be served by post, whether the expression "serve" or the expression "give" or "send" or any other expression is used, then the service shall be deemed to be effected by properly addressing, prepaying and posting the document as a letter and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

 

(2) This section does not affect the operation of section 160 of the Evidence Act 1995 .

[poor-boy]

The two documents attached is what I have received from the DVLA today. The wife has lost the plot and states I should have paid them as getting a crminal record would ensure I lose my job although the V5's (trader parts) were sent to DVLA.

Edited June 13, 2012 by poor-boy

[crem]

The wife has lost the plot and states I should have paid them as getting a crminal record would ensure I lose my job although the V5's (trader parts) were sent to DVLA.

 

 

Sounds like the type of thing my wife would say too having not even bothered to read any of the mail in the first place!!

[poor-boy]

Sounds like the type of thing my wife would say too having not even bothered to read any of the mail in the first place!!

 

 

Well, the thing is all paperwork was read and replied to but the fine still stands according to the DVLA as in the "opinion" of the centre manager an "alleged offence" has taken place. I now have to prove to the Judge that I posted them although they were sent first class.

[Tony P]

Two important threads to read -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?345228-Failure-to-notify.-Another-case!

 

and the Paul Kennedy case referred to therein -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?319264-DVLA-Failure-to-notify-Advice-required

 

These have all the legal principles and show the (low) tactics our public servants at DVLA will descend to in trying to obtain money to support their overspending and inefficiency.

 

There are other recent threads where DVLA have backed down or been beaten in Court, such as here -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?351828-DVLA-failure-to-notify-week-till-court-date

 

Read them carefully to understand Law and the arguments and come back here with questions - and to tell us how you WON !

 

Take no 5н1т from them !!

[poor-boy]

Thanks Tony P, I will of course keep the forum updated.

[crem]

I now have to prove to the Judge that I posted them although they were sent first class.

 

No you don't, they have to prove you DIDN'T send them.

 

The interpretation Act clearly states that the documents are deemed to have been delivered 2 days after posting unless the contrary can be proved (by them).

[Conniff]

I want to repeat what crem has said to make sure you understand :

 

You don't have to prove you posted them, they have to prove they didnt receive them.

[Tony P]

I want to repeat what crem has said to make sure you understand :

 

You don't have to prove you posted them, they have to prove they didnt receive them.

 

I am not so sure Crem said that.

 

He said "they have to prove you DIDN'T send them" NOT "they have to prove they didn't receive them".

Not the same thing.

 

The Interpretations Act defence is about 'sending' being sufficient legal obligation to deem 'delivery' took place.

 

The 'receiving' is deemed to be the automatic follow-on from the 'sending', whether or not the physical 'receiving' actually happened.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Tony P

[paul kennedy]

Hi Poor boy. I know what it feels like to be under attack by the DVLA and I am sorry it is happening to you as well. Please do read the details of my case and there are several others like mine though mine is the only one that has got as faras the Crown Court to date that I know. I have a lot of time and respect for the British Legal system and it is simply being abused by the DVLA. No doubt there are some people who do not bother to complete the relevant paperwork but it up to the Dvla to devise a better system to counteract this. Unfortunately the present one is just too lucrative for then with most law abiding citizens terrified with the idea of being taken to court simply coffing up.

 

I was gutted when I went to the Magistrates court with my honest account of what happened and although receiving considerable sympathy from the magistrates lost ! This forum saved me , Thank you again Dragons Dennis , Ray Kay, Postggi etc. I now realise that losing at the magistrates who are just good citizens sorting out simple cases reasonably, Not legally trained was the best thing I could have done. I suggest you do the same . Take the simple truth to them and if the Dvla bully boys roll you over with their lies then embarass them again at the Crown Court where you really do get some considered legal attention and will most certainly win your case. Number 6 is in the process of doing this very thing on July 16. The Crown Court Judges will soon get fed up with their valuable time being taken up by the DVLA and the sharp rap across the knuckles they were given in my case will soon escalate to something more formal. Perhaps a notice to all the magistrates court defining the legal position or something more direct to the DVLA.

You will win have no doubt of that its just a matter of how brave you are and whether you have the time to take it to CC . I victory at the Magistrates court counts for little because it sets no legal precedent It was an excellent learning experience for me that reinforced my respect for the legal system and especially the Judges that I observed at the Crown Court because I was able to veiw several other cases whilst waiting for my own to be heard.

 

Best wishes Paul Kennedy

[poor-boy]

Thank you Paul K, I have been reading up on the forum till my eyes have gone blue lol.

 

I have today (23/08/2012) received a "Requistion" from DVLA to attend Magistrates court next month and answer to a charge where I failed to notify "Secretry of state" of change of keeper.

 

So Here I go to read up some more and wish me luck guys as I already have issues at work going on with jobs etc so deep in the dumps at the moment

[renegadeimp]

You posted them. Its up to the DVLA to prove they weren't posted. Lately we've seen more and more of these "failure to notify" fines, where it seems instead of the DVLA processing the details, they "lose" or " did not receive" them, so issue the fine as a money making scheme.

[Tony P]

I hope by Friday evening there will be more encouraging news on this topic.

 

An appeal is being heard and, unless the DVLA refuse to defend the appeal against conviction they prosecuted (as on an earlier occasion), the Judge's ruling on the arguments will becomes a legal precedent, binding on lower Courts - ie Magistrates Courts.

[paul kennedy]

Absolutely Number 6 ( Pete) Worcester Crown court 10am . We should all be there with him really it is that significant. Dvla have not given court notice that they are not going to oppose it as they did with me .

 

Can precedent still be set if it is unopposed tomorrow ? I would assume so but perhaps somebody knows the exact position on this.

 

I think you are stuffed on this one DVLA ! About time.

 

Thanks Pete you are doing everybody a massive favour Well Done Regards Paul

 

 

 

I hope by Friday evening there will be more encouraging news on this topic.

 

An appeal is being heard and, unless the DVLA refuse to defend the appeal against conviction they prosecuted (as on an earlier occasion), the Judge's ruling on the arguments will becomes a legal precedent, binding on lower Courts - ie Magistrates Courts.

[poor-boy]

I am only in Stourbridge and number 6 in Worcester (30 miles-ish) and if I did not have the kids at home I would attend.

 

Good luck to Number 6

[poor-boy]

Just found this too - http://www.rac.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?10714-DVLA-SORN-notification-system-is-a-shambles-legally-unenforceable-and-administ

[poor-boy]

Receieved a letter from the DVLA prosecution - the case against me has been dropped.

[renegadeimp]

Congrats!

[CHRIS44G]

Receieved a letter from the DVLA prosecution - the case against me has been dropped.

 

The DVLA have found your form then!

[renegadeimp]

The DVLA have found your form then!

 

 

Bingo!

[poor-boy]

I wish they had found it - Told them I will be pleading not guilty and referred them to their own "Once we posted it, it is as good as delivered" also a few bits on their legislations!! Case dropped with an appology.

[Tony P]

DVLA really are displaying they cannot now tell their arse from their elbow over the situation they have created, or allowed to evolve, through their policy.

 

Time for them to come clean, clarify and return all penalties/settlements received and seek cancellation of convictions scored on their wrong applicaion of the Law and its requirements.

 

They are now so confused thay are advocating people to do differently from their own printed instructions on V5Cs, that they now seek to disown!!

 

A clear case of misfeasance for which they should be prosecuted.