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    • The case against the US-based ride-hailing giant is being brought on behalf of over 10,800 drivers.View the full article
    • I have just read the smaller print on their signs. It says that you can pay at the end of your parking session. given that you have ten minutes grace period the 35 seconds could easily have been taken up with walking back to your car, switching on the engine and then driving out. Even in my younger days when I used to regularly exceed speed limits, I doubt I could have done that in 35 seconds even when I  had a TR5.
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    • Thank you for posting up the results from the sar. The PCN is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4. Under Section 9 [2][a] they are supposed to specify the parking time. the photographs show your car in motion both entering and leaving the car park thus not parking. If you have to do a Witness Statement later should they finally take you to Court you will have to continue to state that even though you stayed there for several hours in a small car park and the difference between the ANPR times and the actual parking period may only be a matter of a few minutes  nevertheless the CEL have failed to comply with the Act by failing to specify the parking period. However it looks as if your appeal revealed you were the driver the deficient PCN will not help you as the driver. I suspect that it may have been an appeal from the pub that meant that CEL offered you partly a way out  by allowing you to claim you had made an error in registering your vehicle reg. number . This enabled them to reduce the charge to £20 despite them acknowledging that you hadn't registered at all. We have not seen the signs in the car park yet so we do not what is said on them and all the signs say the same thing. It would be unusual for a pub to have  a Permit Holders Only sign which may discourage casual motorists from stopping there. But if that is the sign then as it prohibits any one who doesn't have a permit, then it cannot form a contract with motorists though it may depend on how the signs are worded.
    • Defence and Counterclaim Claim number XXX Claimant Civil Enforcement Limited Defendant XXXXXXXXXXXXX   How much of the claim do you dispute? I dispute the full amount claimed as shown on the claim form.   Do you dispute this claim because you have already paid it? No, for other reasons.   Defence 1. The Defendant is the recorded keeper of XXXXXXX  2. It is denied that the Defendant entered into a contract with the Claimant. 3. As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance. The Claimant was simply contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. 4. In any case it is denied that the Defendant broke the terms of a contract with the Claimant. 5. The Claimant is attempting double recovery by adding an additional sum not included in the original offer. 6. In a further abuse of the legal process the Claimant is claiming £50 legal representative's costs, even though they have no legal representative. 7. The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all. Signed I am the Defendant - I believe that the facts stated in this form are true XXXXXXXXXXX 01/05/2024   Defendant's date of birth XXXXXXXXXX   Address to which notices about this claim can be sent to you  
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Hi Can anybody please help. Over 5 years ago, yes thats right over 5 years ago, I received a parking ticket from liverpool council. I clearly remember receiving it. It was coming up to christmas and the car park charged an hourly rate or a daily rate. As it was only £5 for the daily rate I paid this up front. (pay and display). Right, daily to me means 24hours or up to. well on return to my car which was at around 19.40pm there was a parking ticket. I remember ringing the council about this and they told me their day rate expires at 7pm. Whilst I did not know this at the time, the next time I visited the car park I read all the small print on the signs. Since receiving the parking fine I have heard absolutely nothing what so ever until last week when I got a letter from a bailiff. I have not yet been in contact with them as I wanted some help from here. What can I do about this if anything. Surely before a baliff is engaged a court order needs to be obtained which if it is was I have never received anything.

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Have you moved house in the meantime?

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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First thing to do would be to phone the council and ask them when the warrant was issued - they are only valid for 12 months. (However they can apply for another one after the first expires - but it is rare.)

 

The warrant is the bailiff's legal authorisation to chase the debt. If the warrant is out of date, they should not be chasing you so ask the council to call the bailiffs off or you will take matters further.

 

If the warrant is in date, then you can tell them that you did not receive any correspondence previously and ask them to drop the case, as it is pretty well established that you can't defend a 5-year-old PCN due to lack of recollection and evidence.

 

If they still won't budge, then you will have to file an Out of Time witness statement. I have just written out instructions on another thread next to yours - the one called "In over my head with parking fines..." - see post number 32 on there for how to proceed.

 

Try and be as polite as you can :) and hopefully they will see sense and drop the case.

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Ok, I rang council yestersay, the say I contacted them in Feb 2007 after I recieved what they called the Charging Order, they also said the have on file a bailiff tried to contact me in 2008. Well obviously do not recall any of this. Where do I stand here. Any help is appreciated. Thank you

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they also told me they are now passing all PCN from 2006 onwards to baliffs. God know how many they have. So anybody out there who has any with liverpool city council be on your guard

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I asked and the answer I got was the baliffs tried to collect in 2008 so I assume sometime between 07 & 08. I have got to call back today to speak to the team leader

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You need a definite answer. It's irrelevant when they tried to collect. They have to have a valid warrant now, and since a warrant is only valid for 12 months, it is likely they don't have one and are chancing it.

 

They know that without a valid warrant their bailiff should not be chasing this.

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I have just rang the council again and they told me the the bailiffs have been asked to collect outstanding debt where the warrant has expired. No new warrant has been issued. The original was issued on 26/09/07 and expired on 26/09/08. I was told the original debt of £95.00 is still outstanding and the only way the account will be brought back from the bailiffs is if I pay the £95.00. What is my next course of action please? I have told the council I have taken legal advise on this and to be honest and fair to the person I spoke to she was reading from an email that has been sent to all staff which is like a Q & A. Thank you for your help.

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No valid warrant, and the bailiff is in the doo doo imho, they cannot enforce diddly squat without a valid warrant. they can merely knock on the door as if they were debt collectors, and if they exaggerate their powers at that stage they act without lawful authority.

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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do I still have to pay the outstanding fine and if so can I ask the council for time to pay without having to pay the bailiffs. I dont want to be paying additional bailiffs fees

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do I still have to pay the outstanding fine and if so can I ask the council for time to pay without having to pay the bailiffs. I dont want to be paying additional bailiffs fees

 

The fine is so far back that all the data is possibly lost, councils are notorious for not giving up, if you can afford it I would pay them off, but insist as there is no warrant in force, that they accept the payment and close the matter. Unless there is a warrant, the bailiff is a debt collector only, and would be in trouble if they used threats etc. Others will know more

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Formal complaint to the council and the local government ombudsman. They are knowingly instructing a bailiff to act without a warrant. I would guess that the bailiff would not dare clamp you - as brassnecked says, they would only be acting as a debt collector.

 

You should definitely not pay any bailiff fees - if the council agree that you can settle at £95, that's your choice. I wouldn't. I would just complain instead.

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At the worst the council officials who instructed the bailiffs may be guilty of Misfeance in Public Office, if they knowingly instructed the bailiffs to enforce the debt "as if" there was a warrant in force, so Jamberson's advice to initiate Formal Complaints, is another option that should be used.

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If you know the PCN number then check with the TEC for the date of any/all warrants issued against the PCN. That is much better than trusting anything the council says over the phone. I am amazed that the council admitted there is no warrant in place. There is so much wrong with this that it is an absolute scandal. Besides the obvious aspect of using the Bailiff as a doorstep heavy to gouge money, think of the PCN aspects. it would have to be an 1991 RTA PCN. Does their system still have the dual processing needed ? Do they have sufficient records ? the CEOS notebook ? The CEO ? The relevant Traffic Order and all its applicable amendments ? There are a host of issues with this. Not least how does chasing a PCN for 2006/7/8 assist keeping traffic moving ? Or is the council using its powers under decriminalised parking as a revenue source. Parliament and the High Court do not allow that. Strong words but this sounds to me to be unlawful in many ways. Malfeasance, breach of Trust, Fraud, all spring to mind. Ring the TEC, to get confirmation of the warrant date(s). Get that backed from them in writing, an email from the TEC will do. Once confirmed that the bailiff are taking unwarranted action I would not be be bothered about a defence, I would be on the attack. You can bet that similar visits and letters are going on across the area and that the reaction of many will be as yours, pay rather than face escalating 'fees'. I have to stop writing now as this case is making me very angry indeed.

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This is dreadful and I fully intend to make a Freedom of Information request concerning this.

 

Would you mind posting details of which bailiff company this is?

 

There are VERY SERIOUS problems with enforcing RETURNED WARRANT cases. Firstly, a bailiff would have already spent ONE YEAR attempting to enforce the parking ticket and FAILED to execute the warrant. The most common reason for this is that there had been ERRORS in the ADDRESS.

 

There is apparently NO warrant and yet....where is the protection for the debtor to ensure that the bailiff does not add fees to the account?

 

Another VERY worrying aspect is the fact on the PCN/Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery will have the registration number of the vehicle that had been owned by the debtor on the date of the contravention and which very likely.....is no longer owned by the debtor. I hope that this council

 

Final thought.....it would seem from this case that the PCN has reverted back to the value of £95. I am intrigued as to how much the bailiff would earn in fees as clearly, he would not work for NOTHING.

 

VERY WORRYING INDEED!!!

 

PS: Which bailiff company?

 

.

.

.

 

PPS. Had not read the post from Lamma before posting my response. Excellent response and valid points.

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Thank you tomtubby, I feel honoured. There is a cornucopia of issues, I am sure we could come up with many more. In my view it is a direct result of a decision by the council that can be summed up as - ignore whatever the law may say go put get some cash. This is utterly appalling and should be broadcast locally to all and sundry in order to protect other victims.

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Thank you Lamma for responding so quickly.

 

There is of course ANOTHER issue !!

 

Lets assume that there were errors on the address field.

 

The bailiff company would have "data cleansed" the warrant and in doing so...correct the address?

 

Without a warrant they cannot apply to TEC under CPR 75.7(7) for permission to amend the address.

 

Instead, they can wait to see whether the debtor responds to the letter and in that way, can select that case for an application to REISSUE the warrant . To be fair...I do not know if there is a time limit for such applications.

 

This is justification if any is needed that the court should NOT allow the VRM (number plate) to appear on the warrant etc.

 

Milking this cash cow until it turns sour is just one comment that comes to mind !!!

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I dare say an issue can be found with just about every legal step - as the the law has been ignored wholesale. Form EX322 talks to reissue but as I read it it applies to what I call ";real warrant" i.e. those issued by a real court after a Court Judgement. As we all know there is no CCJ within the CPE regime - 'as if' if you will pardon my pun. As far as CPE goes I have only seen paper on reissue of an Order for Recovery, I am sure you will have seen this as well. For CPE "warrant" reissue to exist it would have to be explicit in CPR part 75 surely ? Doesn't 75.7(10) kill it ? I must admit that I have not trawled part 75 and the Practice Direction looking to resolve this to full effect.

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Lamma and tomtubby, I will refer you to post# 4 OP sold the car 3 years ago, so it just gets better. If Op could post the amounts the bailiff was asking for in the letter it may be helpful.

 

Whatever, justification the council spouts forth, there seems to be a serious bending of rules here to sat the least.

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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