I let the bailiff in :(

[Norman_A]

Hi there.

I'm in a bit of trouble and I'm really hoping that I can get some advice as to where I stand.

 

Firstly, I know I've been stupid, ignoring debts and letting them build up to a point where I've got no hope of settling them. I've never been very good with money. I know that's no excuse.

 

Ok, here goes...

I'm in arrears with my council tax to the tune of £4436.78

I've got five seperate accounts that break down as follows-

 

1) £1252.65

2) £670.20

3) £707.47

4) £526.87

5) £1279.59

 

A couple of months ago, I recieved a notice from the council that I had 14 days to pay the total amount, or they would start court proceedings to have the bailiffs recover the money. I've no way at all of getting that kind of money together and, stupidly, I carried on with the same old, tried and failed, ignore it and it'll go away policy. Needless to say, it didn't and a few weeks later, Jacobs bailiffs put a letter through the door, or I should say five letters stuffed into one envelope, demanding either payment in full within seven days or that I would need to let the bailiff into my house to work out a payment schedule.

 

The letter made it very clear that there was no way they would enter into an agreement unless I Let the bailiff in and paid him £50 on the spot. I didn't have fifty pounds to pay him, so I ignored the letter.

 

A week or so later, the bailiff turned up again and, feeling worn down and pretty bloody embarrased, I let him in. I know I shouldn't have let him in and If I could go back, after reading this forum, I'd have opened the letter box and told him to go away, But I didn't.

 

Anyway, Once he was in the house, he was fairly polite but wouldn't budge on his insisted installments of £60 per week. I explained my personal circumstances to him, explained that I would struggle to pay that kind of money each week, but he just shrugged and said he'd have to take my stuff if I didn't accept his terms.

 

I agreed to the payments and he asked me what valuables I own. He said he didn't like searching people's houses for stuff, so I gave him a list of things. Thing is, the house is rented fully furnished, so I don't own any furniture. My TV is rented also. So basically, he made a list that contained an ancient plasma screen TV ( one of the first ones out, no digital reciever or HD or anything like that) that's worth probably no more than £50 on a good day at an auction, an ancient dvd player that's probably worth a fiver at best, a battered old laptop that might be worth £30, a cheap ipod dock that was only £20 new and my car. The car is a 9 year old Mondeo with 165k on the clock and a load of mechanical issues. I'd be amazed if it fetched more than three or four hundred pounds at auction (webuyanycar offered me £500 for it...).

 

I knew I wouldn't be able to afford the payments, and sure enough, a month after signing the agreement, I missed a payment.

 

I've had five new letters this morning, all demanding payment in full within four days or they would come to take my stuff. I phoned the number on the letter, to be greeted by a fairly sour sounding woman who had no interest whatsoever. She told me, basically, that if I don't pay the smallest account (£526.87) by Saturday, they'd come at some point next week to take the stuff. I explained to her that, in total, my belongings would fetch a few hundred pounds at best, but she just said "there's a car on the list sir". Yes, I said, but it's a battered old thing that's not worth anything. Needless to say, she wasn't bothered in the slightest.

 

Now, the reason that these arrears started to build, is that when the whole credit crunch thing hit, my wages took a huge nosedive. I was working two and three day weeks for at least a couple of years in a job that didn't pay that well for the full five days. My first child was born in 06, so money was tight enough anyway. Then in 2010, I was diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis in my hands, legs and back, which made it almost impossible to carry on working. I tried to claim benefits, but was awarded £6 a week, which was stopped after six weeks because my girlfriend's working tax credits took our income over the "poverty threshold" and £18 a week DLA.

Anyway, even though I knew I couldn't afford to do it, I kind of budgeted to use the tax credit money to pay the bailiff. Then, two weeks ago, they stopped paying working tax credit and we lost out on £70 a week. That's basically why I couldn't cover the £60 payments to Jacobs. They don't care about that though.

 

So, basically, I'm at the point where I have a girlfriend working 16 hours a week on just above minimum wage, a five year old and a two year old eating me out of house and home, an illness that's not showing any signs of getting better any time soon, a huge reduction in income and a bailiff threatening to come and take my car if I don't give them five hundred pounds by the end of the week.

 

Add to that the fact that if they take the car, my girlfriend won't be able to work as she needs to be able to get to places like Blackburn, Bolton, etc during the day as part of her job, so we'll be in even more trouble money wise, and, the car itself would probably only cover the cost of the fees for taking and selling it in the first place, leaving me with the same amount of debt, but even less chance of being able to pay it!

 

I'm going to go to the CAB tomorrow morning and see what they say, but after spending the afternoon/evening reading this forum, I thought I'd see if anybody could offer any advice here.

 

Is there any chance at all of getting them to leave my car alone and accept a drastically reduced installment plan? Or have I left it too late to do anything about it?

 

Feels like I'm going a bit mad at the minute:|

 

 

Thanks in advance for any help offered and I'm sorry the post is a long one. Hopefully nobody falls asleep reading it...

[wonkeydonkey]

Vulnerable Situations



Enforcement agents/agencies and creditors must recognise

that they each have a role in ensuring that the vulnerable

 

and socially excluded are protected and that the recovery

 

process includes procedures agreed between the

 

agent/agency and creditor about how such situations

 

should be dealt with. The appropriate use of discretion is

 

essential in every case and no amount of guidance could

 

cover every situation, therefore the agent has a duty to

 

contact the creditor and report the circumstances in

 

situations where there is potential cause for concern. If

 

necessary, the enforcement agent will advise the creditor if

 

further action is appropriate. The exercise of appropriate

 

discretion is needed, not only to protect the debtor, but also

 

the enforcement agent who should avoid taking action

 

which could lead to accusations of inappropriate behaviour.



Enforcement agents must withdraw without making

enquiries if the only persons present are children who

 

appear to be under the age of 12.



Wherever possible, enforcement agents should have

arrangements in place for rapidly accessing translation

 

services when these are needed, and provide on request

 

information in large print or in Braille for debtors with

 

impaired sight.



Those who might be potentially vulnerable include:

the elderly;

 

people with a disability;

 

the seriously ill;

 

the recently bereaved;

 

single parent families;

 

pregnant women;

 

unemployed people; and,

 

those who have obvious difficulty in understanding,

 

speaking or reading English.

[Norman_A]

Thanks, Wonkeydonkey.

Would you suggest that I contact Jacobs and point out the info above? Or go back to the council?

I've already asked the council to take back the debt and let me pay at an affordable level, but they weren't interested.

[wonkeydonkey]

You must advise the Council as a priority, enquire if they have a welfare officer if yes make an urgent appointment to see them, if not ask to make an appointment with the revenues department, take with you all evidence to benefits and if you are under a consultant at a hospital take evidence to that also or a letter from your GP, you will need to complete and income and expenditure sheet so any wage slips belonging to your partner will be needed.

 

I have sent pm to another cagger who is well up on the vulnerable status, if she is well enough I am sure she will br along to help you.

 

WD

 

 

WD

[brassnecked]

It is arguable that there are sufficient goods on the levy to pay all fees, and a portion of the debt, on a deb t of £4,000 the bailiff needs to levy £40,000 of goods as it is reckoned, seized goods realise around 10% of their value. You do come into the vulnerable category, imho, and it may be argued that there are insufficient goods, and that the bailiff should have returned the account to the council Nullo Bono, insufficient goods, it may be argued that the bailiff levied soleley to make a financial gain for himself and his company. Could you list the goods levied exactly as written on the levy? Also send copies of evidence of vulnerability, such as medical conditions, letters from DWP regarding DLA to the council. Hopefully as WD alludes to kelcou may look in later, and she is expert on vulnerability.

[jmc5571]

Would it be a good idea to park the car elsewhere for the time being? Just a thought. It might help for a short while whilst you negotiate. sorry, I'm no expert ... except at racking up debt

[wonkeydonkey]

Hi BN yes I have sent PM to Rae, hope she is well enough to pop by and lend her expertise.

 

WD

[ploddertom]

I bet the Bailiff is busy counting on this to be able to pay for his cruise round the Caribbean. I imagine seeing he has multiple LO's he can see multiple fees and I would urge you send off for a breakdown of fees ASAP.

[RaeUK]

Hi BN yes I have sent PM to Rae, hope she is well enough to pop by and lend her expertise.

 

WD

 

I'll post what I can, but you'll have to bear with me a few minutes. I need to re-read the thread ...

[RaeUK]

Whilst I toddle off and ponder, Norman_A you might be around. Can you confirm the following please?

Are you fully unemployed? (Sorry, I think you might be but it doesn't seem to say so in so many words). If so, are you in receipt of income based Job Seekers Allowance or contribution based JSA? Are you, instead, in receipt of or applying for Employment and Support Allowance? Does your girlfriend reside with you? And are the little ones hale and hearty? Thank-you ...

[RaeUK]

And whilst we're at it, could you tell me a little more about your psoriatic arthritis? From what I've just read it doesn't seem a bundle of fun. How would you class it at present? Mild or severe? Are you receiving any ongoing or long term treatment etc? Feel free to PM me this type of info if you feel it is too personal for a public forum...

 

 

 

 

(Forgot to say thank-you, WD ...)

Edited April 24, 2012 by RaeUK
Thank-you, WD, by the way ... x

[Norman_A]

Thank you very much to everybody who's commented. I wasn't expecting to get this many responses so quickly.

 

 

 

I'm not sure of the exact wording on the levy. I've got it, but my partner has gone up to bed and I don't know where she's put it. I will find out in the morning.

 

Yes, I am fully unemployed. I claimed for ESA and DLA when I first had to stop working. I had my ATOS medical and was accepted as eligable for ESA, but because of a gap in my NI contributions (my own fault, again), I was only eligable for income based. I recieved £6.33 per week for six weeks before they stopped it. The DLA assessors decided I was eligable for lowest rate care element, as I struggle with holding pans and stuff sometimes. My partner lives with me and we do get housing and council tax benefit and The arrears are from before I had to stop working.

 

Kids are fine, so it's not all bad

 

Right now, I'd say the arthritis is moderate. It comes and goes though. It can be ok in the morning and agony by the afternoon, or it can be painfull all day. Sometimes I can get away with mowing the lawn before the pain kicks in and other times it's hard to get up the stairs.

I'm under a rheumatologist and have been taking methotrexate tablets and a cocktail of injections and painkillers.

Stress usually sets it off, so I'm expecting to be hobbling about tomorrow.

 

Thanks.

[RaeUK]

Crikey, Norman, you PASSED an ATOSH medical? You know how rare that is?

 

If I understand things correctly, you now get neither income related ESA or JSA. That's a nuisance as they're both benefits you can have CT arrears deducted from at a small rate, usually about £3.50pw. I'm assuming this is due to your girlfriends income. I am no benefits expert so please check out the benefits forum on CAG. You can find it here.

 

My advice is fairly standard and probably includes much of what others have said. But do take the advice of other posters as well as I'm only interested in the vulnerable aspects and ignore most other things. (For example, the levy sounds like it is vexatious.The bailiff only looking to cover their own fees as the items levied will not cover sufficient in value for the council. That is for others to advise and you to shout about).

 

Here are four links that will be of interest to you:

 

The National Standards for Enforcement Agents 2012

 

DWP a to z of medical conditions

 

Civil Enforcement Association

 

Them bailiffs!

 

 

Do read the info in the links. I give you them because, even though I think you fit into the vulnerable category, it isn't in the bailiffs interest to agree. So, these are your weapons and quote liberally from them. The National Standards. They are there for a reason. They're only a guide the enemy will cry. But every council and every court has agreed to abide by them. The majority of bailiff firms have either agreed to abide by them or belong to an association that insists it's members abide by them.

The DWP link is the one DWP Decision Makers (should) use to assess how illnesses affect people. I know the link takes you to a different arthritis but I followed the psoriatic arthritis link. Obviously similar to the DWP. Quote from it or supply the link.

Jacobs belongs to the Civil Enforcement Association. The link takes you to the link for the CEA Code of Practice. (About the same as the National Standards). They cannot deny they know what they should be doing - ie returning the case back to the council.

The link to Jacobs. Always look at the bailiffs website. Especially if you need to make a Formal Complaint to the council. Jacobs have won oh so many industry awards, they must be professional, they must know what they're doing. So they clearly must understand the National Standards and their own Civil Enforcement Associations code of practice. See? It's so simple to use their own info against them...

 

That's a big enough post. I'll be back in a mo with the usual list of what to do next ...

Edited April 25, 2012 by RaeUK

[RaeUK]

You need to...

Write to the council Head of Revenue outlining why you are vulnerable. Include appropriate links, info, details of benefits and medical info. Email that in the first instance. Then follow up with a hard copy and include copies of any medical certificates, relevant medical info, copy of prescription can be useful, proof of benefits etc.

Copy the lot, including email, to the bailiff company.

Send all hardcopies signed for.

Have a cup of tea and wait for them to moan, complain, find obstacles to put in your path. Or, if the stars are aligned correctly, actually agree with you. Or make an offer. The only offer, however, you are looking for is that the council take the debt back, no bailiff action, and a sensible repayment amount that is both sustainable and affordable.

If they come back negatively, write a Formal Complaint to the Council CEO. I'll be happy to give a few tips there if needs be.

Hope all this a) makes sense and b) is remotely usefull.

Best wishes

Rae

[RaeUK]

... Kids are fine, so it's not all bad ...

 

But bad for me. I was looking for more ammo. ... glad they're ok though ...

[seanamarts]

Watching with interest.

 

Have to say that bailiff should have sent this back to the council as you are classed as vulnerable.

Have a word with your MP, sorry if it has been said already.

[Feebee_71]

Why are your partners tax credits stopping? If your ESA was stopped because her income took you over the limit for receiving any payment but she's now losing the tax credits that took your income over the allowed limit to receive payment them it's possible you will be eligible to receive some payment again

 

Feebee_71

[brassnecked]

Get thE CAB or a local welfare rights organisation to give you a benefit check, as there may be something hidden away a\that you could claim, check http://www.turn2us.com, for an online benefit self checker, but on the whole follow rae regarding the vulnerability, I am of the opinion that the bailiff has probably added multiple fees for one visit, and the levy itself may be dodgy, as they cannot charge multiple fees for liability orders served simultaneously. Ask for that fee breakdown if the levy doesn't specify in enough detail, you could use this template

 

"From:

My Name

My Address

 

To:

Acme bailiff Co

Bailiff House

 

Ref: Account No: 123456

 

Dear Sir

 

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

 

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

 

This is not a Subject access request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Ripped off customer"

 

I'm sure many fees can be challenged, and the end game is to get the council to take the debt back.

[tomtubby]

GREAT advice from everyone.

 

The CAB will very likely help you with a letter and it is important that they advise the bailiff company that the vehicle is nearly 10 years old, worth approx £400 if sold privately and considerably less at auction and furthermore, has 165,000 miles on the clock.

[Norman_A]

Wow! Thank you all so much!!

 

I'm going to take notes from the advice and links and take them to the CAB with me this morning. I will update later on when I get back.

 

I just typed out a post about why the tax credits stopped, etc. But then I pressed the Backspace button to correct a spelling mistake and the whole thing disappeared. Will have a crack at it again later

 

Thanks again.

[Norman_A]

Quick update:

 

Ploddertom, looks like you were pretty much spot on! I've just been through the paperwork that the bailiff filled out when he was here and I've been hit with £456 worth of charges so far. No doubt in my mind now that there's no way that selling everything on the levy wouldn't cover their fees, never mind pay a portion of the debt.

 

To answer brassnecked's earlier question, the items are written on th levy as follows...

 

ford mondeo Black "reg no"

Laptop ACER

ipod docking station Gear4

Sony flat screen tv silver

DVD player silver prism

 

Thanks.

[seanamarts]

What was the point of that levy, its totally useless, as you say it wont even cover the bailiff costs, let alone storage fee's and auction cost's. Or even touch the amount you owe to the council.

 

As I have said, this should have gone back to the council.

[brassnecked]

Quick update:

 

Ploddertom, looks like you were pretty much spot on! I've just been through the paperwork that the bailiff filled out when he was here and I've been hit with £456 worth of charges so far. No doubt in my mind now that there's no way that selling everything on the levy wouldn't cover their fees, never mind pay a portion of the debt.

 

To answer brassnecked's earlier question, the items are written on th levy as follows...

 

ford mondeo Black "reg no"

Laptop ACER

ipod docking station Gear4

Sony flat screen tv silver

DVD player silver prism

Thanks.

 

 

That levy is vexatious, there are insufficient goods to even cover the fees they will add, it should have gone back Nullo bono, insufficient goods

[RaeUK]

... the items are written on th levy as follows...

 

ford mondeo Black "reg no"

Laptop ACER

ipod docking station Gear4

Sony flat screen tv silver

DVD player silver prism

 

Thanks.

 

Car? Laptop? Flat screen tv? Good Lord, Sir! You never told me you were rich!

 

Hope you're feeling a little bit better about the situation you're in. It might still be a bit of a battle but you have a good family around you in CAG

 

Best wishes

Rae

[Norman_A]

Lol, Kelcou. Sony flat screen TV sounds good written down, until you actually look at the thing and realise that it's a good ten years old, with no remote, and it doesn't even show a picture unless you plug a digi box into it first. As for the laptop, give me a tenner and it's yours

 

I've been to the CAB and he managed to call the dogs off for three weeks while I get everything in order. He's also booked me an appointment with their debt management officer (or whatever his job title is) and another for a benefit check.

Hopefully that little bit of breathing space will allow me to get everything sorted out now.

 

I'm feeling a bit better now, thanks.

 

I've got a debt pack, with income/expenditure forms, etc to fill out now and then I'll have a look at requesting a breakdown of the charges, etc.

 

Could I ask another question?

Would it be best to write the letters/emails to the council and bailiffs, complaining about the charges and the levy now, or should I wait until I've seen the debt officer?

 

 

Thanks again.