Announcement: ESA claimants now have the option of having their WCA recorded

[hensteeth]

Well..........Err...........Never probably, and after Channel fours 'tricks of the dole' story tonight, the media will be once again focused on demonising benefit claimants.

 

Heh? What's that about then?

 

Why don't be done with it and call it the 'Scroungers Charter'?

 

Everybody now believes that benefit claimants are nothing more than devious, sly, underhanded grabbing bas****s! So why not tell the world how they manage it!

 

Working the JSA system is one thing, but sinking to the level of pretending to be ill has got to be the pits!

[hensteeth]

Just as a point of interest, does anyone know of a good reason why when someone is found to have LCFW the payments only get backdated to week 14? The condition or disability was there at week one, the payments should be from week one.

 

It's called a 'waiting period'.

 

just what they are waiting for I don't know. But hey, miracles do happen so give it 3 months you never know.

[**Margaret**]

Crazy Diamond:

 

Tut, tut, tut, you're so unfair to the media. They're probably waiting for some guidance from Caxton House, like the rest of us.

 

Concerning this particular conundrum; I've had a freedom of info request into Work n Pensions since 20 July. Sent a copy of Mr Grayling's parliamentary written answer, dated 17 July, with a copy of the Atos statement and asked for clarification.

Thus far, their silence on the issue is deafening.

 

Atos are happy for work capability assessments to be recorded??

You could've fooled me.

 

Margaret.

[Crazy Diamond]

Crazy Diamond:

 

Tut, tut, tut, you're so unfair to the media. They're probably waiting for some guidance from Caxton House, like the rest of us.

 

 

 

photo upload

 

[Dilizjo]

Welcome back Simon hope you enjoyed your break away if you go to http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?353226-ESA-Reassessment/

and go from post 88 there are some interesting letters there from ATOS

 

Tried to PM you but your box is full

[Crazy Diamond]

I must say from first couple of pages I've read it's good to see that everyone now seems agreed that the best way forward is for us all to request our WCA is recorded, unless I've been reading it wrong.

 

There was never any disagreement about requesting it... The diverging views are about what to do if they say it can't be done and that the interview will carry on regardless. Sorry if you understood otherwise.

[osdset]

It's called a 'waiting period'.

 

just what they are waiting for I don't know. But hey, miracles do happen so give it 3 months you never know.

 

It's called the assessment period.

As for the rest of your post..........Just what exactly are you babbling on about?

[Crazy Diamond]

hosting images

[worried33]

I now have a written statement from the DWP saying they told ATOS not to postpone medicals, so somewhere within the DWP heirachy graylings statements are been mangled. This came via my MP.

 

I told my MP even tho I had a recorded medical I want this chased up with grayling still. I get the impression my MP's heart isnt in this tho.

 

I think given harrington's frustrations there is a rot I think within the DWP and a mindset that is hostile to fairness and compassion.

[wobbly]

So the DWP are ignoring Grayling or the reply to Frank Field was a lie!

[**Margaret**]

worried33:

 

Well done you for getting an answer out DWATO. :high5:

My comments on the answer?

Little wonder Grayling's sidekicks aren't replying to my freedom of info request.

 

Are there any limits to DWATO's apparent duplicity? Probably not.

 

Oh well, back to CIB/3117/2008. With the obvious problem of no pennies while appealing a failure to attend. ConDems don't do compassion.

 

Margaret. Back to my red circles.

[hensteeth]

So the DWP are ignoring Grayling or the reply to Frank Field was a lie!

 

It was an answer given to a confusing question which was raised by a confused MP. Consequently you get a confused situation!

 

To be honest, and I have read all 33 pages of this thread and I am still confused! Are claimant's entitled to a recorded ESA assessment? And if so, must ATOS provide that recording for the claimant? Who has the final say in all of this, ATOS or the DWP?

[worried33]

The DWP have the final say however generally the DWP seem to give ATOS a lot of trust, what I mean by that is if ATOS say eg. a non attendance was without good reason that would probably be seen as not good cause by a DM.

 

This i did suspect for a while before I had written confirmation given that the DWP refused to overule ATOS and intervene. Also for ATOS to make all those written statements they would have had confidence on legal grounds that the DWP would back them up.

 

Lots of questions to be answered but the main one been why is grayling reading fairy tales out to the public.

[**Margaret**]

A sort of clarification:

 

'Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive'

(by Walter Scott).

 

From Margaret.

[hensteeth]

The DWP have the final say however generally the DWP seem to give ATOS a lot of trust, what I mean by that is if ATOS say eg. a non attendance was without good reason that would probably be seen as not good cause by a DM.

 

This i did suspect for a while before I had written confirmation given that the DWP refused to overule ATOS and intervene. Also for ATOS to make all those written statements they would have had confidence on legal grounds that the DWP would back them up.

 

Lots of questions to be answered but the main one been why is grayling reading fairy tales out to the public.

 

Thanks, but I still don't know if I have a right to a recorded assessment. If the DWP say I have does that over rule any decision made by ATOS that says I haven't?

 

Who is the monkey and who organ grinder?

[worried33]

That isnt a clear cut answer.

 

On the basis of grayling's statement I Would say yes, because he is in charge of the DWP and ATOS is contracted by the DWP. So as long as grayling says yes the right is there and that if no equipment a new appointment is offered then this should stay to be the case.

 

However on the other hand if you do things like refuse to attend a medical because it isnt recorded not only will a DM probably stop the benefit but I think a tribunal would probably agree with the DM based on the upper tribunal decision that was posted earlier in this thread.

 

So the 2 stories are. Atos appear to follow one or the other depending where you live, DWP seem to be favouring number 2, grayling himself number 1. It is possible now that ATOS are all number 1 now as I havent heard of any other reports since I had my assessment, its all quietend down.

 

1 - You have the right to a recorded assessment and if no equipment is available it will be postponed until it is available or you agree to a normal assessment.

2 - You have the right to a recorded assessment and if no equipment is available instead a normal assessment will be booked which you have to attend unless have good cause.

 

Ib both cases advance notice should be given.

Edited August 15, 2012 by worried33

[hensteeth]

That isnt a clear cut answer.

 

On the basis of grayling's statement I Would say yes, because he is in charge of the DWP and ATOS is contracted by the DWP. So as long as grayling says yes the right is there and that if no equipment a new appointment is offered then this should stay to be the case.

 

However on the other hand if you do things like refuse to attend a medical because it isnt recorded not only will a DM probably stop the benefit but I think a tribunal would probably agree with the DM based on the upper tribunal decision that was posted earlier in this thread.

 

So the 2 stories are. Atos appear to follow one or the other depending where you live, DWP seem to be favouring number 2, grayling himself number 1. It is possible now that ATOS are all number 1 now as I havent heard of any other reports since I had my assessment, its all quietend down.

 

1 - You have the right to a recorded assessment and if no equipment is available it will be postponed until it is available or you agree to a normal assessment.

2 - You have the right to a recorded assessment and if no equipment is available instead a normal assessment will be booked which you have to attend unless have good cause.

 

Ib both cases advance notice should be given.

 

Thanks - it's still as clear as mud!

 

So we have an organ grinder that grinds his organ whilst the monkey does a little dance, but next door it is quite possible to find that the monkey is now grinding the organ and the newly redundant organ grinder gives a little jig?

 

No wonder I am seeing my psychiatrist, I must be the only sane one around!

[Crazy Diamond]

... And in case you weren't confused enough, this is interesting, turns out the recording machines are actually owned.... by the DWP, as revealed in this latest FOI.

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/120956/response/300141/attach/html/3/3517%202624%20Response%20Mr%20Sutton.pdf.html

 

 

I think that to sum up the issues, it goes like this:

 

1 - Yes, you are entitled to ask for a recording, and should do so in writing.

2 - If no recording machine is available, your assessment should be postponed until a machine is available.

3 - If ATOS tells you that they don't have a recording machine available and tell you that the assessment must go ahead or you'll be counted as non-attending and lose your money, make sure you get that in writing and then record it yourself (without telling them). I would strongly suggest that everyone has a recording device with them in any case, just in case ATOS decide to play silly buggers on the day.

[reallymadwoman]

... And in case you weren't confused enough, this is interesting, turns out the recording machines are actually owned.... by the DWP, as revealed in this latest FOI.

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/120956/response/300141/attach/html/3/3517%202624%20Response%20Mr%20Sutton.pdf.html

 

 

I think that to sum up the issues, it goes like this:

 

1 - Yes, you are entitled to ask for a recording, and should do so in writing.

2 - If no recording machine is available, your assessment should be postponed until a machine is available.

3 - If ATOS tells you that they don't have a recording machine available and tell you that the assessment must go ahead or you'll be counted as non-attending and lose your money, make sure you get that in writing and then record it yourself (without telling them). I would strongly suggest that everyone has a recording device with them in any case, just in case ATOS decide to play silly buggers on the day.

 

To confuse matters even further, the FOI response refers to the machines purchased for the pilot study, which are not the same ones as being used to record assessments now.

[**Margaret**]

Clarification, or lack thereof:

 

The poetry was intended to be illustrative of DWATO's contradictory statements on the issue of audio recorded messicals. Personally, I don't think we'll get a definitive answer cos DWATO don't want to give us one.

 

CIB/3117/2008: The appellant's appeal against failure to submit to a non-recorded medical examination (yes, a medical examination, not a messical) was upheld. Many of us have good reasons for wanting our interviews recorded. Not least of which, is the sheer number of the Atossers' creative transcriptions that get overturned at tribunal.

 

Onward and upward. Compact discs are a lot cheaper than tribunals.:flame:Margaret.

[reallymadwoman]

 

Onward and upward. Compact discs are a lot cheaper than tribunals.:flame:Margaret.

 

But not everyone appeals and not all appeals succeed so it's still probably cheaper to 'fail' as many people as possible.

[Crazy Diamond]

To confuse matters even further, the FOI response refers to the machines purchased for the pilot study, which are not the same ones as being used to record assessments now.

 

Well spotted RMW, I hadn't noticed! So what happened to these machines? Shouldn't that be a total of 20, or 21 or 22 (I have lost track!) then?

 

Not the biggest question in the great scheme of things, but just more muddying of waters...

[worried33]

Clarification, or lack thereof:

 

The poetry was intended to be illustrative of DWATO's contradictory statements on the issue of audio recorded messicals. Personally, I don't think we'll get a definitive answer cos DWATO don't want to give us one.

 

CIB/3117/2008: The appellant's appeal against failure to submit to a non-recorded medical examination (yes, a medical examination, not a messical) was upheld. Many of us have good reasons for wanting our interviews recorded. Not least of which, is the sheer number of the Atossers' creative transcriptions that get overturned at tribunal.

 

Onward and upward. Compact discs are a lot cheaper than tribunals.:flame:Margaret.

 

CIB/3117/2008 was allowed because he turned up, agreed to be examined and didnt do anything that would stop the WCA process and a decision been made. It was ATOS that cancelled his medical.

 

The same judge noted someone refusing to have their WCA would not have got the same decision.

[**Margaret**]

Hi Worried33:

 

CIB/3117/2008: Can we agree to disagree?

Clearly we have a difference of interpretation concerning the reasons for the decision.

 

'Tis also clear that Mr Duncan Smith's ignoring the judge's directions that accompanied the decision;

 

'The Secretary of State shall ask Medical Services to arrange for the appellant to be provided with details, in writing, of the conditions under which an interview or examination may be tape-recorded.'

 

Anyone received said details in writing, pre or post 5 July 12, following a knockback from Atos, for an assessment to be recorded by Atos??????

 

:?:

 

Sincerely, Margaret.

Edited August 18, 2012 by **Margaret**

[worried33]

of course, I only have an opinion and my opniion could well be wrong