Announcement: ESA claimants now have the option of having their WCA recorded

[speedfreek]

I give up.

 

I'm joining you

 

Just because somebody in authority tells you something is fact! That doesn't make what they say truthful nor an abuse of their position. It's the basic premise of this whole CAG board and why all of us found our ways here!

 

Checkout some of the threads in the DVLA section for the on going long long battle with them and failure to notify fines. As it's a classic example of the above and the long hard road and fight they're engaged in to educate people as to what is really going on and legal!

[worried33]

I'm joining you

 

Just because somebody in authority tells you something is fact! That doesn't make what they say truthful nor an abuse of their position. It's the basic premise of this whole CAG board and why all of us found our ways here!

 

Checkout some of the threads in the DVLA section for the on going long long battle with them and failure to notify fines. As it's a classic example of the above and the long hard road and fight they're engaged in to educate people as to what is really going on and legal!

 

Earlier you stated the secretery of state was right, now you changing your view?

 

Or is it now to be assumed everything ATOS says is correct and lawful?

 

Incidently after I sent the same sort of letter starryeyes sent I got another reply today, an exact duplicate of the first letter I had.

 

I only asked crazy diamond if there was a letter stating the DWP considered it not good cause, one wasnt produced.

[speedfreek]

Sorry what?

 

If you're not careful I post up a youtube video of the Greatest darts player alive Ted Hankey throwing plastic bats at the crowd

 

Stuff it everybody I give you the 1 the only the COUNT TED HANKEEEEEEY

 

 

Leaves thread in style handing plastic bats to everyone . All though I am tempted to post up the Count from Sessame St singing the batty bat song 1 2 3 Batty batty bat batty batty bat. Both things make more sense to me than this thread now

[wobbly]

Graylings reply to Frank Fields question re provision of recording devices for all atos WCA assesments.

Based on the results of a trial during 2011, we have not implemented universal recording for claimants going through the work capability assessment (WCA). We have asked Atos Healthcare to accommodate requests for audio recording, where a claimant makes a request in advance of their assessment. This approach began in late 2011 and we will monitor take up during 2012 before making a decision on the requirement for recording assessments, taking into account factors such as value for money and the value it adds to the WCA process. As part of this process we are also reviewing Atos capacity to provide recordings for those claimants who currently request one.

So they should be accomodating requests for recordings.

[hensteeth]

I'm sure that will have them quaking in their boots.

 

Well done! That's guaranteed to get you over 15 points and a fair and impartial WCA.

 

ATOS could not give a flying feck who you bring with you because it sure as hell won't change the outcome, you'll probably be going down the appeal route just like the rest of us.

 

Yep ! I no doubt will. Like the last assessment, I itend to make as much a nuisance of myself as I can. Last time the assessor had to give up as he couldn't work out if I was winding him up on purpose or was just plain stupid. I did get the regulatory '0' points of course. Then I sent in some evidence that blew his report out of the water which led to being put in the Support Group for 3 years.

 

Personally I don't see the point in getting upset about or taking the assessment seriously, you know what the result is going to be before you go in, so you might as well have a bit of fun at their expense in the meantime.

Edited July 18, 2012 by honeybee13
Comment hidden pending review by the site team.

[hensteeth]

As I said it is down to the individual to decide if covertly recording something is right or wrong. At least we can agree on that.

 

As to whether it would be allowed as admissable at a tribunal, I guess it will be entirely at the discretion of the tribunal chairman at the time. So it could or could not be allowed, that is a balanced view on it I think.

 

Regarding claimants insisting on a recorded WCA is a different matter.

 

If we are going to get the system altered then we have to show it's faults and make life for the DWP and ATOS as difficult as possible. I hope everyone can agree with that?

 

If every person that has to attend a WCA requests a recorded one, it is going to inconvenience the system and cause problems for ATOS and the DWP as things currently stand. That is a positive move by claimants, on which I hope everyone can agree. We are making things awkward for them.

 

ATOS are driven by targets, 11000 WCA's to carry out each week, therefore if everyone asks for it to be recorded, it will cause them to fail to meet there targets because they do not have the equipment.

 

It will decrease the number of cases DWP can deal with through to completion, thus causing them to fail to meet their targets. As a former Civil Servant of 10 years working for the Benefits Agency, I know about DWP targets and how they are expected to achieve them. When it goes pear shaped and targets aren't met it cuases problems with the system and affects budgets etc.

 

The more we can inconvenience the system the better, the more it starts to buckle, the higher up the chain the questions get asked!

 

At the moment the Secretary of State is sticking to his line of we are entitled to a recorded WCA. The system can't take the pressure so lets make it start to buckle and ask for a recorded WCA.

Can we all agree on that?

 

Oh yes I am all for creating as much confusion and inconvenience as I can!

[osdset]

Personally I don't see the point in getting upset about or taking the assessment seriously, you know what the result is going to be before you go in, so you might as well have a bit of fun at their expense in the meantime.

I am cynical by nature, and I don't suffer fools gladly so I feel well equipped to deal with ATOS and it's minions, but it has to be said that the WCA holds real terrors for many claimants, there are many vulnerable people out there who cannot face the ordeal.

[worried33]

By invitation only and only of trusted people. It does help people as the information eventually gets filtered out. After that it's up to people what they do with the information and look how welcome that has been on here! So much energy and time wasted shooting the messenger instead of using it to fight the common enemy! Sorry, but a few of the people on those sites are extremely sick and vulnerable and they don't want to have to deal with the same kind of crap on their site, that's their choice and their right.

 

just noticed this comment, are we not sick and vulnerable on here then?

 

I am seeing what is the creation of a 2 tier disabled society, the privledged get access to this information the rest get the scraps filtered out. This very action fragments everyone and you wonder why there is no proper fight.

[osdset]

I'm a member on a few forums that deal with social issues and the subject of information or more specifically where to get it, is a topic that's often posted about, TBH I haven't seen anything on here or other forums that I could not have discovered by trawling the internet, it's all out there, the problem is that some people just don't have the patience or the determination to look.

 

I have to admit I'm like a dog with a bone, if I want to find something out I will spend inordinate amounts of time and effort on the internet, it's the best library in the world as far as I am concerned, it's also full of rubbish so you have to be prepared to cross reference what you read.

 

Rightsnet is one of the best sites for concise info, but it's a subscription only site for welfare professionals so asking questions is not allowed unless you are a member, non members can freely read the discussion section though and that is full of useful info, especially with regard to current regulations, and tribunal cases.

[worried33]

and rightsnet charges for access to the tribunal database.

[Willowone]

Thank you, Margaret. I will be taking my Mum with me and she will do her best to take notes. I've warned her that it's am impossible task but she will do her best.

 

I was hoping for a last minute reprieve but it looks like my WCA will go ahead tomorrow. I'm taking a letter to put in my file about how I am there only because I have been *forced* to attend without a recording etc etc I'm not going down quietly!

 

All the best,

 

Willowone xx

[**Margaret**]

Willowone:

 

Sure your Mum'll do her best. Most Mums do.

 

'I'm not going down quietly!' Good for you. Easier said than done, but try not to let them put you off cos you may need whatever notes Mum can get for you.

 

Nowt left to say, for now, 'cept ,Margaret.

Edited July 19, 2012 by **Margaret**

[nolegion]

Just wanted this thread to have the second part of Grayling's answer to Frank Field's parliamentary question of 17 07 12:-

 

"As part ofthis process we are also reviewing Atos capacity to provide recordings forthose claimants who currently request one. Additional machines have beenordered. However a large scale purchase of machines in the absence of an evaluation of the process is not effective use of public money. Although therehave been increases in requests these still represent only a small percentage of overall work capability assessments.

 

In themeantime, while Atos will do all that they can to accommodate equipment on thedate/time of the WCA. requests for audio recording theremay be times when the service cannot be offered, for example where it has notbe possible to get access to recording. In these circumstances clients will be told in advance that their request cannot be accommodated and offered a later date."

 

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2012-07-17a.117849.h&s=%22recording%22+section%3Awrans+section%3Awms#g117849.q0

 

It seems to me that Grayling is clearly suggesting to Parliament that claimants who wish to have a recording may encounter delay, but not refusal of the right. He must also be aware, as e.g. the evidence of this thread shows, that that is not what Atos are saying to people.

 

There's a word for that kind of behaviour.

[Willowone]

Margaret - thank you for the kind words and the virtual hug

 

Nolegion - thank you for that fantastic new piece of information.

 

GOOD NEWS. MY WCA HAS BEEN POSTPONED. (It was meant to be this afternoon). I am allowed to wait until they have recording equipment available.

 

It has only been postponed thanks to a very last minute intervention by my MP. You CAN get this changed through official channels. (Obviously it's wrong that it's this difficult).

 

If you have been refused a recording by Atos PLEASE get it in writing if you can. I made a formal complaint about the fact that they had refused me a recording and refused to postpone my appointment. They had to reply in writing as part of their complaint procedure. That is what generated the letter that quite a few people have received saying NO in very clear terms.

 

Let people know what is happening - they are listening. Stephen Timms, Tom Greatrex, Frank Field and John McDonnell are all interested (and actively asking questions about Atos in the House Of Commons, as Nolegion has shown). I would also contact The Guardian as they are interested as well.

 

DO NOT GIVE UP.

 

Best of luck to evreyone. Xx

[worried33]

Just wanted this thread to have the second part of Grayling's answer to Frank Field's parliamentary question of 17 07 12:-

 

"As part ofthis process we are also reviewing Atos capacity to provide recordings forthose claimants who currently request one. Additional machines have beenordered. However a large scale purchase of machines in the absence of an evaluation of the process is not effective use of public money. Although therehave been increases in requests these still represent only a small percentage of overall work capability assessments.

 

In themeantime, while Atos will do all that they can to accommodate equipment on thedate/time of the WCA. requests for audio recording theremay be times when the service cannot be offered, for example where it has notbe possible to get access to recording. In these circumstances clients will be told in advance that their request cannot be accommodated and offered a later date."

 

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2012-07-17a.117849.h&s=%22recording%22+section%3Awrans+section%3Awms#g117849.q0

 

It seems to me that Grayling is clearly suggesting to Parliament that claimants who wish to have a recording may encounter delay, but not refusal of the right. He must also be aware, as e.g. the evidence of this thread shows, that that is not what Atos are saying to people.

 

There's a word for that kind of behaviour.

 

Thank you that is a more detailed quote this time which makes what he is saying much clearer.

[wobbly]

Thanks nolegion for update on Graylings reply,I didnt see it when I checked the reply ,only saw what I quoted.So it appears ATOS was telling fibs about DWP saying do them anyway without recording.I think this is best news we have heard lately hope they stick to it.

[worried33]

ok my MP rang the DWP armed with graylings 17 july statement where he very clearly stated in the event of no audio equipment appointments would be rearranged. They refused to budge.

 

My MP has agreed to write to grayling directly concerning the difference between what the DWP are doing and what his public statements to the house are saying.

If the response isnt satisfactory she will ask in parliament but cant until after summer recess, so too late for my current situation but good for our cause.

 

However I was told if I decided to refuse the medical graylings reply could help my appeal, assuming he keeps the same line rather than saying the DWP have got it right.

[nolegion]

Many congratulations to both willow and worried for getting their MPs stuck in. That is truly refreshing and informative.

 

The fact that one part of DWATO has caved in but another is still making worried fight, is just a fantastically clear example of the utter mess and misery Grayling and Co have steered this issue into.

 

If Grayling escapes into 'school hols' unscathed by this, I guess he will be thinking 'saved by the bell'.

 

Best of luck to you, worried, whichever way you decide to go.

[Willowone]

Thank you Nolegion. I feel very lucky that I was able to get help.

 

Worried33 - I'm so sorry that this hasn't worked for you. Don't lose heart. I've pointed out your case to the person that helped me. Please go back to your MP and say that you know that I have had my WCA postponed TODAY. You can refer her to this comment (it may help). I only had three hours to go when I found out that it had been postponed, so please keep trying. I feel so sorry for you because I know how you are feeling but you DO have the right to a recording and they CAN postpone your WCA until equipment is available. Best of luck. Xx

[**Margaret**]

SPOT THE DIFFERENCE:

 

At risk of boring everyone beyond tears, here's second half of my letter from Work n Pensions;

 

IN FULL!!!

'The availability of audio recording was announced at a time when only small numbers were expected (got that wrong didn't they) and since that time the number of requests has increased significantly. (Can't think why) This has put pressure on the ability to provide sufficient capacity to meet all requests. The dual CD machines required for audio recording are a specialist item - there is only one manufacturer and machines are built on demand. As a consequence there is a lead in time of four to 10 weeks. Additional machines have been ordered. (Didn't say how many but 'machines' is plural. Maybe two?) However a large scale purchase of machines in the absence of an evaluation of the process is not effective use of public money. Although there have been increases in requests these still represent only a small percentage of overall WCAs - 242 (?) since March this year.

In the meantime, whilst Atos will do all they can to accommodate requests for audio recording there may be times when the service cannot be offered, for example where it has not been possible to get access to recording equipment on the date/time of the WCA. In these circumstances clients (their word, not mine) will be told in advance that their request cannot be accommodated.

 

Compared to last paragraph of Mr Grayling's written parliamentary answer,

dated 17 July 12;

 

In these circumstances clients will be told in advance that their request cannot be accommodated and offered a later date. (For what? 'Tis far from clear unless I'm missing something. Or is it the usual fudge?)

 

 

DWATO has two faces?

Letter to me from Work n Pensions dated 13 July 12.

Parliamentary written answer dated 17 July 12.

Shall be joining :worried33's: Member of Parliament and sending copies of both to Caxton House for comment and further clarification. This fiasco's getting unfairer by the second.

 

Mad Margaret

[Willowone]

Margaret - I just tried to send you a PM (private message) but I can't because I haven't written 30 posts here.

 

I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding this (I have a very foggy brain) - are you still being made to go ahead with an unrecorded WCA? (For some reason I thought that you were ok...) What a horrible letter

 

If you are, can I suggest that you ask your MP to phone Atos (rather than DWP) on your behalf and point them towards the Grayling quotes asap. Tell them that you know that people have had their appointment postponed. If Atos refuse to postpone your WCA ask them to put it in writing.

 

(The assurance that Grayling gave on the 17th means that Atos will postpone your WCA until they have recording equipment available. That's what the "later date" refers to).

 

Willowone xx

Edited July 19, 2012 by Willowone
More info

[**Margaret**]

Willowone:

 

Having trouble keeping pace with the posts this afternoon. You were next on my list.

 

Congrats for today. We're both alright, for now, but I'm feeling for :worried33: and the others who aren't. S/he tried the same strategy as me but it didn't work.

 

Unfortunately my Member of Parliament's blue. She did invite me to discuss the situation with her but overlooked the fact that I cannot reliably get to her office!

 

The electronic mail was a kind thought, thank you, but I wouldn't have known how to reply. My computer literacy, like dealing with DWATO, is a work in progress.

 

Onward and upward, sincerely, Margaret.

Edited July 19, 2012 by **Margaret**

[osdset]

The dual CD machines required for audio recording are a specialist item - there is only one manufacturer and machines are built on demand. As a consequence there is a lead in time of four to 10 weeks. Additional machines have been ordered.

The company that makes the equipment is Neal/Canford Audio http://http://www.neal.co.uk/default.htm

I believe this would be the model http://www.neal.co.uk/products/9221P.html

I have e mailed the company to ask about ordering times, I will post their reply (if I get one)

 

Reply received from Neal/Canford

 

Hi Jxxx,

We manufacture these recorders here on a monthly basis, depending on how many orders are an our system at the time we normally quote 6 to 8 weeks from receipt of order

Hope this helps

Regards

Pxxxxxe

Edited July 20, 2012 by osdset

[Willowone]

Margaret - my MP is 'blue' as well. I'm really impressed that they intervened on my behalf. I haven't got any special contacts or anything like that. I had to begin at the beginning. They should still look after you. It's not a party political matter - at least not on the level that we are operating at. What made them act was the fact that Graying's Parliamentary answers are completely opposed to what we are being told. That can not be right and it certainly isn't fair.

 

My feeling/hope is that this will all be clarified soon but in the meantime I do not want anyone to be forced into an unrecorded WCA if it can be avoided.

 

(I'm sorry that I'm not posting the name of the MP that intervened on my behalf - it's simply because I'd rather not be identified as I'm scared of Atos given my experience so far! I AM keen to try and help others though).

 

Willowone xx

[**Margaret**]

worried33:

 

At a bit of a loss here cos no idea why written request worked for me but not for you. 'Tis a very unfair lottery. Whatever else happens tomorrow try to get someone to take notes if you're forced into an unrecorded assessment. Easier said than done but 'twill be worth it if you need them at tribunal.

 

Be thinking of you, sincerely, Margaret.