Thank you Caggers

[fuzzymutt]

Hi all. I have only just joined the forum this evening but I wanted to say a huge thank you to you guys and girls. I reckon there are most likely hundreds of people like me who research their issues by trawling through your forums, without posting about their particular problem. Obviously there is a mixed bag of good and not so good outcomes but I just wanted to say thank you for putting together this resource that allows people like me to take strength from other peoples experiences so willingly shared.

 

I have a long long way to go with my current issue, but you guys have given me the guidance and inspiration to at least have the courage to take a stand and fight back.

[BankFodder]

That's what we're here for. Thank you.

 

You can repay everyone by sharing your own experiences and helping others when you can

[fuzzymutt]

Hi Bankfodder, I have read about your exploits with interest!!

 

My case is one that has been covered so well by others already but will happily share...

 

Basically I work for a large public body. I have been lucky in a way because I was one of the last of the "good old days", people head hunted at decent salary rates before things started to go downhill with the global recession etc. I was (I suppose I still am...) head of department for a very fast moving element of local government (oxymoron perhaps?)

 

Anyway to cut a long story short, I could very easily be replaced by someone willing to do the job for a lot less money. It's a position I feel lucky to be in, but to a great extent its been the crux of my problems. With everyone keen to be seen to be saving money it was inevitable that people would be looking at me in a critical way. A lot of positions in my department were cut last year with responsibilities shared amongst us lucky enough to survive the cuts, but it meant that everyone was working beyond capacity and everyone was feeling the strain. The additional workload took its toll with me ending up under the care of my GP since last July for work related stress. Further positions were then cut with me then being told that I needed to take up the responsibilities of my deputy. This obviously meant that I wouldn't have the time to manage the department, but I was told that that responsibility would be shared out amongst other managers from other disciplines, i.e.: finance would take over managing the department budget rather than me. In short I was demoted into a lower position with three times the workload we had a couple of years ago with my management responsibilities taken off me.

 

Just before Christmas my GP signed me off work, she thinks I have had a complete nervous breakdown and is obviously concerned. I am on high doss antidepressants amongst other drugs for associated problems. Work have been absolutely awful about it though.

 

I put in a grievance stating that I felt that I was being managed out of my position, the grievance was basically closed down and not progressed. I was told in no uncertain terms that my position was obviously too stressful for me and I should think of leaving whilst I still had a good reputation. Since then, despite being entitled to sick pay, I have been told that paying me is something of a discretionary decision based on how much contact I have with work and how compliant I am. My GP has specifically stated that I shouldn't have contact with work for the foreseeable future, or at least until I feel up to dealing with them, but that does nothing to stop the constant phone calls and date setting i.e.: we will call you again in a couple of days time to discuss how you are doing and when you will return to work. It was close to driving me over the edge.

 

Anyway, thats the bad news. The good news is that your site has provided a few useful pointers for dealing with work. Firstly it could be argued that I have a disability as described in the Equalities Act. Although I haven't point this out to my boss I have dropped hints about whether there would be an option of a phased return to work, or perhaps being deployed into a different department with less stress, or working from home for a while. This has all been emphatically refused.

 

Anyhoo my position now is that they want me to attend a meeting to discuss my future. Again my GP is quite clear that she doesn't want me to attend any meeting at all at the moment. Having read and researched I feel quite confident in politely declining their invitation, as it does seem to go entirely against the advice of my GP and is believed to be something that would make me more ill. It would be remiss of me to do something that my GP feels will make me more ill so on that level I am confident in telling them to crack on without me. The meeting is to discuss whether or not the continue to pay me sick pay, despite me being entitled to it, so the outcome will be interesting.

 

My employers are stupid enough to not know the law and arrogant to believe they are the law, so I think things will get interesting over the next few months however I feel confident enough to deal with them, however ongoing advice and support will always be welcome.

 

More than happy to share my hours/ days worth of research and personal experiences with anyone who may benefit from it of course...

[Gbarbm]

Hi fuzzymutt

Sorry to hear of your problems. I too work for a large government department so I know exactly where you are coming from.

There is sufficient case law out there which proves the causal link between workplace stress and psychiatric injury. I can't think of them all off the top of my head but I can certainly post links to them here over the next day or so.

I agree with you about the caggers, they have helped me loads of times so I post here from time to time to give a bit back.

Just remember you're not on your own there are plenty of knowledgeable people on here who can point you in the right direction.

Kind regards

Gbarbm

[stu007]

Hi fuzzymutt

 

Please also have a look at the ACAS Website lots of very useful information and you can also contact them for advice.

 

Heres the link www.acas.org.uk

[fuzzymutt]

Many thanks people, I am absolutely awestruck by the amount of support and knowledge you guys freely share. Any case law etc you can throw my way would be appreciated and likewise anything of use I stumble across will also be posted.

 

Is it just me, or do others get the feeling that as soon as you tell an employer you are struggling to cope they see you as fair game?

 

Just been reading up on this little gem, bleeding flip!!! Even if employers don't take this seriously it seems that (some) tribunals see it differently... (just had to remove the link because I have less than 10 posts but, if you google Doctor wins £4.5m, you should find the case I have been reading) OK, so I am not pregnant but there does seem to be a line drawn in the sand for discrimination cases and stress caused by employers! Personally I would be happy with an apology and the support needed to get back to work but I think I have more chance of getting a trip to the moon.

 

Has anyone on here had a psychological assessment done privately? I ask because I am being referred to OH and I am not sure how impartial they might be. I get the feeling that my boss thinks I am making this illness up, stress is seen as a good thing at work, not an illness so I am wondering whether its worth getting an impartial assessment? Has anyone any views on either the impartiality of OH or the usefulness of an psychological assessment? I have googled some through the BPS and there seems to be some that have specialised in "malingering" and also have appeared at tribunals.

 

Regards

FuzzyMutt

[stu007]

Hi fuzzy

 

Ask them to provide you with a copy of the companies sickness policy/procedure as this is most likely what they are using.

[Gbarbm]

Hi fuzzymutt

Walker v Northumberland county council was the first case in legal history where an employee was awarded damages for psychiatric injury suffered as a result of work related stress. Worthwhile having a read of it.... Sorry couldn't post a link to it, laptop crashed and can't seem to do it from the iPod :-/

An employer owes a duty of care to the employee, if they breach that duty and psychiatric injury is suffered then that's your causal link right there!

Also might be worth having a word with your union rep if you're a union member

[Blueboy666]

I agree with all that has been said so far, it would also pay to get a copy of the company policy on harassment and bullying if they have one, it could well come in usefull in time.

 

The effects of harassment and bullying are widespread and have a downward spirralling effect on an individual, leading to many noteable illnesses. Stress being one of the main ones.

 

I havent got a direct link but Professor Carie Cooper from Manchester University is a recognised expert in this field and his work has helped many with claims in ET.

 

Google his site and bookmark his page, full of up to date infot on harrassment and bullying and its effects on individuals.

 

I will keep myself posted on your progress and assist as when i can.

 

Good luck.

[Blueboy666]

Please also find attached some links that may be of some help. xxxx

BIBLIOGRAPHY AND REFERENCES

 

 

1. LEGISLATION (STATUTES & STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS)

Employers Liability (Compulsory Insurance) Act 1969

Health & Safety at Work Act 1974

Sex Discrimination Act 1975

Race Relations Act 1976

Employment Protection (Consolidation) Act 1978

Management of Health & Safety at Work Regulations 1992

Disability Discrimination Act 1995

Employment Rights Act 1996

National Minimum Wage Act 1998

Working Time Regulations 1998

2. COMMON LAW (CASES)

 

Benson v Wirral Metropolitan Borough Council

Health & Safety Executive v Firth Furnishings Ltd

Firman v British Telecom plc

Ingram v Hereford and Worcester County Council

Johnstone v Bloomsbury Health Authority

Lancaster v Birmingham City Council

Lochgelly Iron & Coal Company v McMullan

McCleod v Test Valley Borough Council

Petch v HM Customs & Excise Commissioners

Polkey v A E Dayton Services Ltd

Walker v Northumberland County Council

Ward v Signs by Morrell Ltd

Western Excavating v Sharp

Whitbread plc v Gulleyes

Wilsons & Clyde Coal Company Ltd v English

3. BOOKS & PAMPHLETS

 

Earnshaw, J and Cooper, C (1996), Stress and Employer Liability. Institute of Personnel and Development. (ISBN 0 85292 615 4).

Napier, M and Wheat, K (1995), Recovering Damages for Psychiatric Injury. Blackstone. (ISBN 1 85431 352 5).

Health & Safety Executive (1995), Stress at Work: a Guide for Employers. HSE. (ISBN 0 7176 0733 X).

Health & Safety Executive (1996), Mental Health and Stress in the Workplace: a Guide for Employers. HSE. (ISBN 0 11 321893 1).

Health & Safety Executive (1998), Help On Work-Related Stress: a Short Guide. HSE.

Health & Safety Executive (1998), An Assessment of Employee Assistance and Workplace Counselling Programmes in British Organisations. HMSO. (ISBN 0-7176-1519-7).

Health & Safety Executive (1999), Managing Stress at Work. HSE. (Discussion Document DDE10)

Income Data Services (1995), Stress at Work. IDS Brief 554. (December 1995)

Income Data Services (1998), Stress and Depression. IDS Brief 621. (September 1998).

Trades Union Congress (1998), Trade Union Trends: Focus on Union Legal Services. TUC. (ISBN 850006 447 4).

[papasmurf1cx]

Beware of OH. They probably leak like a sieve and your right to confidentiality blown. That does not mean that they cannot be useful. If they do breach confidentiality, you can ask to be sent elsewhere, the department probably have a recipricol agreement with another depatrment.

 

There is nothing stopping you to get a private assessment done. Look up you local Priory and they should have loads of Doctors available. ask for a price before going and they will give it to you. However it may be better to get your GP to refer to the local Mental Health Team. However their reports can be very slow in coming so we went private ourselves to solve one problem.

 

Some stress can be good but there does come a time when it eats you up. I think you are being too coy about naming the illness as a disability and I would write to them stating that al the changes have amounted to a form of bullying and harassment. I think that you should also allege that the act of closing your grievance down is an act of victimisation. Raise a separate grievance alleging discrimination and anything else that you are unhappy about. You must realise though that by doing so is tantamount to saying you want out because that is generally how grievances end when you allege discimination. It could become more stressful before it gets better and you will lose every internal fight and won't win until you get to the ET.

 

Finally, as an opening bat you could ask for a reasonable adjustment to be enacted immedicately... that all phone calls cease and that communication be done by letter / email from this point on as the constant harrasment of the phone calls is detrimental to your recovery and making you even more ill. If they continue to do so after you asking add it to the grievance as an act of harassment and discrimination.

 

Have you enough service to retire? Are you up on the benefits available to you? have you a union to help you or have you legal protection insurance? Have you considered trying to register this as an industrial injury? (although this may be difficult unless you can identify 1 or 2 specific incidents).

[fuzzymutt]

Morning all, thanks for all the above posts and advice.

 

Unfortunately I don't have legal protection insurance but I am in a union. The union rep seems totally uninterested, mainly because I don't think he understands the legal implications with this. I get the feeling that he sees this as a case of someone being pathetic etc and he pulled a face when I mentioned disabilities and the Equality Act.

 

The main points I have so far is that I warned my HR months ago by email that I couldn't cope and that it was affecting my health, nothing changed in fact things only got worse. I see this is "putting them on notice" that an injury may occur. Am I right in a loose sense?

 

That being the case am I right in thinking that when I finally had my breakdown it was, too a degree, foreseeable, and that that goes towards proving negligence?

 

I have already put in a grievance, was called to a meeting and was just given a rollocking and told that this job was obviously too stressful for me. I have a copy of the policy regarding grievances and needless to say they haven't followed it at all.

 

I haven't been able to get a copy of the Sickness policy at all. I have a copy of the colleagues handbook, and also notes from when I induct new colleagues into the department, and it says very little of substance. It points out that colleagues may have to abide by rules and requests made from time to time in line with the Sickness & Absence Policy. I have requested this from HR but was told there isn't a list of rules at all. Not sure how I can possibly abide by rules that haven't been communicated to me, but I have been told I won't be paid unless I do.

 

Papasmurf, I think the point you make about the consequences of putting in further grievances is a salient one. Until now my primary intention has been to be supported back to work. Being realistic I don't think that will happen, I think this whole thing has been about making me so uncomfortable in work that I resign so they can restructure and hire in someone cheaper. I think they have no intention of supporting me back to work and are probably now very miffed that I haven't fitted in with their plan.

 

The main reason I haven't put in any further grievances is because I basically don't have any confidence in them to deal with the grievances correctly, and I don't want to give them a further excuse for constantly contacting me. Does it dilute the strength of any subsequent legal action if I don't put in grievances?

 

The main thing that drew me to this forum was to try to understand whether HR should be ringing me asking me when I will be coming back to work. My GP has signed me off for 6wks however also immediately HR were on the phone asking me specifically what the doctor had said, what she had prescribed me etc and asking me whether I think I will be well enough to return to work before the 6wks is up. I found lots of info on Keeping in Touch days, and most other posts seem to confirm that HR should be able to maintain a degree of contact but my understanding was that this contact was to explore ways to support you back to work. In my case I feel like all contact has been used to pile further pressure on me.

[fuzzymutt]

Just realised how much I ramble in my posts - will go for editing versions from now!!

[papasmurf1cx]

Morning all, thanks for all the above posts and advice.

 

Unfortunately I don't have legal protection insurance but I am in a union. The union rep seems totally uninterested, mainly because I don't think he understands the legal implications with this.

You should go beyond the workplace rep and directly to branch. They have experts trained in employment law to help.... but beware they don't like confrontation.... it is all about getting back to work.

 

I get the feeling that he sees this as a case of someone being pathetic etc and he pulled a face when I mentioned disabilities and the Equality Act.

 

The main points I have so far is that I warned my HR months ago by email that I couldn't cope and that it was affecting my health, nothing changed in fact things only got worse. I hope you have been writing notes about what has gone on and when things happened.?? I see this is "putting them on notice" that an injury may occur. Am I right in a loose sense? Basically , yes. If you told them that it WAS affecting your health, that is a good date (unless one is identified earlier) to say that you became 'disabled'. The private doctor will want to see this email as they may take this as a start point when the employer KNEW you were ill.

 

That being the case am I right in thinking that when I finally had my breakdown it was, too a degree, foreseeable, and that that goes towards proving negligence? I see where you are going here. Trying to take an action for personal injury for psychiatric injury is almost impossible. The courts don't exclude it (laweyrs never do) but they definitely don't like it. The hurdles to jump are very very high, so I would say don't even go there as you will never persuade a solicitor to take it on. Stick to the ET route. Discrimination in the ET has unlimited compensation, in principle if not in reality, and you can tag on an element of Personal Injury.

I have already put in a grievance, was called to a meeting and was just given a rollocking and told that this job was obviously too stressful for me. I have a copy of the policy regarding grievances and needless to say they haven't followed it at all.

 

I haven't been able to get a copy of the Sickness policy at all. I have a copy of the colleagues handbook, and also notes from when I induct new colleagues into the department, and it says very little of substance. It points out that colleagues may have to abide by rules and requests made from time to time in line with the Sickness & Absence Policy. I have requested this from HR but was told there isn't a list of rules at all. Is this in writing to you? verbal communications can be lost and denied, so everything in writing. Not sure how I can possibly abide by rules that haven't been communicated to me, but I have been told I won't be paid unless I do. You can't it is unfair.

 

Papasmurf, I think the point you make about the consequences of putting in further grievances is a salient one. Until now my primary intention has been to be supported back to work. Being realistic I don't think that will happen, I think this whole thing has been about making me so uncomfortable in work that I resign so they can restructure and hire in someone cheaper. I think they have no intention of supporting me back to work and are probably now very miffed that I haven't fitted in with their plan. They will be they think they can run roughshod over everybody.

 

The main reason I haven't put in any further grievances is because I basically don't have any confidence in them to deal with the grievances correctly, and I don't want to give them a further excuse for constantly contacting me. Does it dilute the strength of any subsequent legal action if I don't put in grievances? Yes. It can be reduced by 25%. You MUST go through the process of Grievance to try and ameliorate the problem. You may want to explore your pension provisions, because if the process makes you even more sick the employer may want to pension you off. Can you tell us what gender you are, just wondering if there is an element of sex discrimination.

The main thing that drew me to this forum was to try to understand whether HR should be ringing me asking me when I will be coming back to work. My GP has signed me off for 6wks however also immediately HR were on the phone asking me specifically what the doctor had said, what she had prescribed me etc They have no right to ask this, this is priveliged communication. By asking they are intruding into your private life. All they need to know is that you have a certificate. I advised what to do above. and asking me whether I think I will be well enough to return to work before the 6wks is up. I found lots of info on Keeping in Touch days, and most other posts seem to confirm that HR should be able to maintain a degree of contact but my understanding was that this contact was to explore ways to support you back to work. In my case I feel like all contact has been used to pile further pressure on me.

If they are making you ill by this contact tell them so. They cannot act of they are ignorant of what they are causing.