Wildly unfair Transport Investigations Ltd prosecution

[Rajan246]

Hello CAG.

 

I am being prosecuted for having an failing to produce a vaild railcard for the ticket I was carrying on a journey between Glasgow and Darlington in September 2011. I accept my ticket was invalid but my defence is that no reasonable person would have reason to suspect this as it stems from human error of the ticket vendor. More worringly, the last letter I received from them threatens to charge me with ‘intent to avoid paying a fare’ which would require a plea to be entered and possible proceedings hundreds of miles from my home.

 

In short, I was sold a senior citizens’ ticket as if I had a senior citizens’ railcard. I am 35 years old and bought my tickets in person. I have to buy them in person as I was taking my bicycle and bikes must be booked on in advance and the only way to do this is face-to-face.

 

My defence is I had no reason to suspect that one of my six tickets (for bikes generate two tickets for each journey and I was coming back from York) was an invalid ticket. Why would I? All that the offending ticket says is SNR as opposed to STD (which could stand for anything, Scottish Network Rail, for example). I have told Transport Investigations Ltd that I am a very diligent customer and checked my tickets thoroughly but was checking for dates, times, seat numbers not something as ludicrous as this!

No-one checked my tickets on the day (0640 departure), not at the barrier and not to get my bicycle on board (as is the norm). The best of this ‘intent to avoid a fare’ bit is I was the one who actually offered my tickets to the approaching ticket inspector as I was passing him to go to the bathroom and he was filling the gangway. Naturally I laughed when he asked if I had a senior citizens’ railcard.

 

In short, he was very nice and assured me this was a mistake of the booking system and that it happens quite a bit. I filled out a little slip of paper with brief personal details and he kindly arranged for to get both myself and my bicycle through the barrier once at Darlington. I wasn’t asked to pay a fine or pay the difference or anything like that and could have paid it (being as it was the start of a five day holiday).

 

Further, I bought my tickets with card and can pinpoint the exact moment I walked into the ticket centre at Glasgow Central. CCTV footage would show me buy my tickets on my own and clearly looking some thirty years from retirement age (the date, time and place would ti in precisely with the booking system and the detail on the now submitted ticket). How could I ever have been sold such a ticket unless by human error? I have told TIL all this and rather than being more understanding and reasonable, they just seem to harden in their attitude i.e. tagging on this threat of ‘intent to avoid a fare’. There is no way I can allow myself to plead guilty to this second charge. How can I?

 

We have both sent three letters to each other, all very civil and pacific but does anyone have any advice as to what to do or what to expect?

 

I am 35, only work part-time and am trying to enter the legal profession presently (with no success looking likely, alas).

I am physically ill with the anxiety that their lack of interest in being reasonable is producing.

 

I have made my piece with the injustice of the matter (accepting I did unwittingly board with this useless ticket), but I really just want it wound up. Should I call TIL directly and ask for their fine to be issued? What fine should I expect?

 

Yours in solidarity,

Andy

[sailor sam]

Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

Are you saying that the person who sold you the ticket was at fault? Did you have some other form of discounted card which you presented and he/she issued the wrong one? What ticket did you ask for?

 

As far as I see it, if it is the case where the vendor has sold you the wrong ticket through no fault of your own, then I would write to TIL informing of this indicating that you intend to defend the matter rigorously and will be claiming any expences which you incurr in doing so. You would be entitled to suggest or request that that CCTV footage showing you purchasing the tickets can be used in evidence.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

[Rajan246]

Thank you for your reply Sailor Sam, what a cheering stance! This episode has really given me the blues.

 

In answer to your question, I was not using any railcards whatsoever when I bought my tickets and booked my bike, hence my bamboozlement.

 

I have explained this to TIL in a letter and in fine detail but to no avail. Even attached a picture to show my relative youthfulness! I feel I should contact another body (MP, MSP, Watchdog, someone!) before any fine/summons is issued (when it will be harder to withdraw). I just asked for a single to Darlington from Glasgow and for a single back from York five days later and for my bike to be booked onto both (hence the necessity to book with a real person). Bikes cannot be booked onto a train online nor can the availability of spaces for them be checked online. It can only done though another human being.

 

The only other angle I thought might be put to me by TIL was that this trip could've have been a club trip of some sort, an old timer in this club dropped out and I took their ticket, BUT such trips take a lot of advance planing and discussion and I naturally have I dozens of e-mails between my pals to prove it.

 

Also,as the system that issued my useless ticket at Glasgow Central put it through as having been bought with a senior citizens' railcard, would the ticket itself not bear the unique railcard holder's membership number on it somewhere (I have had a young persons' card at points but cannot recall)? If anyone has bought a ticket with a railcard for a journey not yet taken could you do me a great favour and check this detail for me please?

 

Thank you.

 

Andy

[RPI]

It is the customers responibility to ensure they have a valid ticket but in this case it appears to have been a mistake but you are tchnically in breach of Byelaw 18(1) as your ticket wasn't valid for you, however, the guard should have really used his discretion and charged an excess fare, had you not paid the excess then that would be different. this may sound like an odd question but when you were reported were you still in Scotland?

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

Hi there are some experts who contribute to the forum Old-codJA, SRPO, and RPI why not wait for a short while and consider sending one of them an invite with a link to your thread

 

Andy

[Rajan246]

RPI: I appreciate that it is the customer's responsibility. The train was in England by the time the issue came to light. It doesn't help that I was travelling alone and have no-one to back me up save the inspector, but it does help that it was only with the inspector's help and that of his colleague upon disembarking at Darlington that I could get out and through the barrier with my bicycle. Talking about charging me with 'intent to avoid a fare' having acted like that?

 

As I said in my most recent letter to TIL, if i had not been led to believe that this was unproblematic by the guard I would have made a quick video with my phone to have the inspector repeat what he had told me, that no money had been asked for and to document his great helpfulness toward me (he really was nice and we joked about being older than we looked and all the rest of it).

 

Andy: thank you I shall invite them later on (tomorrow? next week? Once I've got a few more replies?)

 

Cheers chaps.

 

Andy

[honeybee13]

Hi there are some experts who contribute to the forum Old-codJA, SRPO, and RPI why not wait for a short while and consider sending one of them an invite with a link to your thread

 

Andy

 

They'll be pleased, Andy .

 

RPI has already replied, I think SRPO was around earlier, but not when this thread was started. As far as I can tell, the guys look in whenever they can and will answer when they can help. I don't think OC likes advising by PM from what he said recently.

 

My best, HB

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

Forum advice is not to seek advice by PM, one should send a message and include a link to the particular thread,

[honeybee13]

Hello Old Andrew.

 

Indeed, advice by PM is against the site rules, as you say.

 

Speaking only for myself, sending me a PM with a link to a thread is pointless. If I look in on the forum and see a thread I think I can help with, I will answer it. If I don't know the answer or I can't get to the forum for whatever reason, a PM isn't going to make any difference to what I do.

 

I'm sure SRPO and OC will be along when they can.

 

My best, HB

[SRPO]

You are going to have a hard time convincing TIL that the ticket was issued in error by a member of staff, the processes used for ticket issuance are not just to press option 1 , 2 , 3 etc, all ticket machines, whether they are self service or staff operated default to 'standard adult' for each transaction. The member of staff will have had to change the process to add a railcard & thus reduce the cost by 34%.

Im not saying staff are infallible, but to get the ticket you had by accident is simply not possible.

The ticket is encoded & the issuance can be traced exactly.

[Smurftastic]

Sorry but I'm going to disagree with you SRPO. On a Tribute or an AVB (if they use it maybe on STAR as well) tickets can be pre-set on quick issue as having a discount card. On a self service machine - yes it requires deliberate action from the passenger.

 

My question is did both tickets (ignoring the bikes) have a discount against them? If it was just one ticket, it would be very easy to work out exactly who issued the ticket (assuming you still have the original) and to then ask the booking office staff person if they have that ticket on their profile..

 

To the OP, there is no record of which SNR rail card was used

[SRPO]

I agree, presets can be set by an operator but this is usually only done for special events when the same ticket is going to be sold over & over again.

I still stand by my point that the chances of an operator error of this type is unheard of.

[Gooner_88]

Well for starters i believe that trying to request for CCTV of you purchasing a ticket may not actually be worth the hassle, after all no sound is recorded so it would not be clear as to what you actually asked for and you could have perhaps purchased a ticket on behalf of someone who does have a senior railcard.

 

I would advise maybe contacting the TOC to see if they can offer some incite to your situation, i've had no dealings with TIL so don't know how it all works so i cant actually offer any more advice

[RPI]

You may be "guilty" of 5.3(a) by default, ultimately you travelled with an in-valid ticket.

[Old-CodJA]

RPI is correct in the last posting although I think it unlikely that might be the final outcome

 

SRPO makes a very valid point, in my experience it is incredibly rare for a issuing error of this nature to occur. All machines default to adult single and a deliberate choice to change the setting has to be made by the traveller (self service) or the clerk and that would be in response to a request from the purchaser.

 

It is the ticket holder who is responsible for checking that s/he has paid the correct fare and that their ticket is valid for the journey they want to make.

 

As someone else said little can be achieved by CCTV as all it could show is whether or not a traveller went to a booking clerk or a machine in a particular time period. It would be much more use to get a note from the booking clerk concerned though I expect the TOC will be doing that.

 

When you were checked were you asked to pay the fare due? There is a specific rule concerning the failure to show a railcard if a traveller uses a discounted ticket and that is that a single fare will be charged.

[Rajan246]

Hi everyone. In answer to the much appreciated points, I wasn't asked to pay anything at the time. Obviously I would have had I been asked to.

 

As I recall, the ticket vending lady at Glasgow Central made a bit of a fuss over the price of the tickets. I had said I found the initial price level fine but she was busy trying to find something cheaper. My times were not particularly flexible as I was meeting others coming up from London at a specific time to start a five day cycling holiday. The rest, as they say, is history.

 

I know it's the customer's responsibility to check tickets AND I DID but why oh why would I have been checking to see I had't been sold a ticket valid only with a senior citizens' railcard?

 

All these submissions about the 'impossibility' of this ticket mishap happening only have to look to this sordid state of circumstances to find evidence to the contrary. As I have said to TIL, at time I wish I had set out to defraud them because at least then I could stomach what is happening to me.

 

It makes me physically nauseous to think of it and its now at the stage of being willing to pay their fine just to bring the wretched affair to an end.

[Grotesque]

TIL....

 

[Old-CodJA]

Hi everyone. In answer to the much appreciated points, I wasn't asked to pay anything at the time. Obviously I would have had I been asked to.

 

There is a very clear rule that says if you travel with a railcard discounted ticket and cannot produce a valid railcard when checked you may dhave to pay the full single fare 'as if no ticket were held' or may be reported. Obviously if you don't have a railcard of any kind you should have paid the full fare anyway and so it seems you do owe the rail company money

 

You don't say which rail company you were travelling on and that will make a difference in some cases too

[Rajan246]

Hi. It was Virgin West Coast Old CodJA. I agree I owe them some money but what it's this 'possible summons to a magistrate' for 'intent to avoid a fare' that has furrowed my brow.

 

I have been advised to write to Virgin directly (by a friend who works for OfGen; irrelevant but for the fact they deal with many complaints of poor service) to alert them of the heavy-handedness that is being actioned in their name.

[Old-CodJA]

Having read back through this thread, there are two points that I have a query with as quoted above

 

 

I am being prosecuted for having an failing to produce a vaild railcard for the ticket I was carrying on a journey between Glasgow and Darlington in September 2011.

 

So far as the 'intent to avoid a fare' is concerned, I suppose that if the train staff asked for the full fare at the time and you failed to pay, or if you were given a notice that hasn't been paid that claim could be justified. There is reference in the railcard terms & conditions that cover that, but the prosecutor would also need to show that it was not an issuing error.

 

Your post starts by saying you 'are being prosecuted', but your comments suggest that isn't in fact the case. Have you received a summons yet and if so what is the charge?

 

 

The only other angle I thought might be put to me by TIL was that this trip could've have been a club trip of some sort, an old timer in this club dropped out and I took their ticket, BUT such trips take a lot of advance planing and discussion and I naturally have I dozens of e-mails between my pals to prove it.

 

Is this what happened? Did you take over someone elses' booking?

 

No, there is no 'unique railcard number' that is printed on a ticket, but there is clear printed indication that a Railcard discount has been claimed by the person buying the ticket.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[Rajan246]

Hi. No summons yet, thankfully and no, I did not take someone else's ticket! We had been planning the trip for several months (as our dozens of e-mails testify to). CCTV footage from the ticket centre will show me buying tickets at the exact same time as show on the offending and negligently issued ticket.

 

Have since written to Virgin to gently alert them to the bullish conduct of the company acting on their behalf.

 

Again, was never asked for any money in respect of any difference. Whilst I was in sock at the ticket's bizarre status I would obviously have paid it.

 

Thanks for giving this your consideration people.

ANdy

[Old-CodJA]

Just a couple of points that will help I'm sure

 

Firstly, CCTV cannot confirm any particular ticket was bought, only that someone was at a booking office window at a particular time. there is rarely any sound recording.

 

Secondly, how did you pay for your ticket?

[Rajan246]

I contacted Virgin directly and they sympathised greatly and gave me a cheque for my trouble. This back in February 2012, but I thought I'd wait awhile.

 

Virgin clearly had no idea that such profligate action was being taken in their name.

 

Result.

 

I remain a fan of their train service!

 

Andy

[Old-CodJA]

I contacted Virgin directly and they sympathised greatly and gave me a cheque for my trouble. This back in February 2012, but I thought I'd wait awhile.

 

Virgin clearly had no idea that such profligate action was being taken in their name.

 

Result.

 

I remain a fan of their train service!

 

Andy

 

 

I know that you have resurrected a very old thread, but one question still intrigues me on this one.

 

Were you travelling via Edinburgh where you changed, or on a direct train from Glasgow to Darlington please ?