Cap1 & CCA return

[ladybird17]

try Home Page - Public

[Rhia]

IF they produce it and it is just an application form with debtor's signature and a few sample T&Cs but not the actual credit limit etc does this mean the banks/DCA is out of the default.

[Peterbard]

But doesn't S127 only apply to an improperly executed agreement under S65(1) and S61(1)?

 

 

HI

Section 127(1) provides that the court must dismiss an application for an

enforcement order if (but only if) it considers it just to do so, having regard to:

 

• prejudice caused to any person by the contravention in question, and the

degree of culpability for it; and

• the powers conferred on the court by sections 127(2), 135 and 136.

 

 

 

 

Section 127(3) precludes the court from making an enforcement order if section

61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with, unless a document

containing all the prescribed terms was signed by the debtor or hirer. Section

127(4) precludes the making of an enforcement order if certain provisions

relating to cancellation were not complied with.

[Peterbard]

IF they produce it and it is just an application form with debtor's signature and a few sample T&Cs but not the actual credit limit etc does this mean the banks/DCA is out of the default.

 

Hi It means it is not a correctly executed agreement and is therefore unenforceable

Peter

[nuttybutty]

default under 77, 78 & 85 exists after 14 days, after a further month they commit an offence even if the bank produces the documentation they have to go to court to enforce the original agreement

Hi

Again where does it say that a bank needs an has to go to court to be able to enforce the doc when it is produced late.In the 77 it just says the agreement cannot be persued whilst the account is in default once it is presented there is no default.

 

Peter

 

 

Don't mean to sound daft (although it doesn't take much these days) but is this post related to my question? It's just with the section 77 and/or 78 mentioned it seems slightly appropriate.

[nuttybutty]

Nutty / Zubo

 

If this is a loan, shouldn't the request be under s77 and not s78? Section 77 is for loans and 78 is revolving credit agreements (i.e. credit / store cards?)

 

 

Yes it is a loan...and just out of interest is it possible to claim back charges in this situation?

[Peterbard]

The debtor does not have to be the last to sign -many agreements are signed by the debtor first. This is why s62 was included - so that a debtor is always given a copy of the unexecuted agreement before it is signed by the creditor. This is to ensure the debtor holds a copy of the actual agreement he signed.

 

Enough already

 

The p0int is that the agreement is not properly executed unless the debtor has sight of the completer agrement after any alterations are made usually this is because he is the last to sign but if it is not then when he signs it is not considered to be executed untill he gets the agree ment back.

So on a credit card an agreement signed by the debtor remotely is not an executed agreement it would need to be returned to him together with the concideration /cancellation period..

[Guest Battleaxe]

As anyone got a link to the Consumer Credit Act Regulations 1983.

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/D536ECCA-DBD6-4184-A0F3-5793D32797A4/0/CreditagreementFAQs.pdf

[Peterbard]

This is not correct. The HL did not overturn the COA judgement. It dealt with the HRA issue and decided this in Wilson's favour

 

The coa queried a point of law that persuade the house of lords to chance it's mind,any thing else is mere semantics.

Peter

[Guest Battleaxe]

Looks like my copy of our agreement, sent under SAR is a photocopy of a faxed copy, sans banks signature. Hmm wonder how MBNA will react with this. have sent CCA request for the agreement under Section 77-78 and still nothing produced.

[Peterbard]

Nutty / Zubo

 

If this is a loan, shouldn't the request be under s77 and not s78? Section 77 is for loans and 78 is revolving credit agreements (i.e. credit / store cards?)

 

Coprrect Fixed sum credit section 77Thats why i always put 77=78 just to make sure i don't get it wrong

 

Peter

[Peterbard]

many agreements are signed by the debtor first.?

 

Yes i have had those a blank piese of paper with a sig box at the bottom with a note attached saying just sign we wil fil the rest in later.

 

Peter

[andrew1]

hi

The agreement is enforceable albeit with a court order with only the debtors signature and the prescribed term. Section 127(3)

 

 

So, if the face of the agreement has been sent, no t & c's or statement of account by the dca who bought the debt and sent it 6 months late from expiry of cca request, what do I have to do now? and how does the court order kick in?

[un1boy]

[duplicate post]

[un1boy]

I have been told by a DCA that my agreements are relevant under sec 3 of the cca.....I can't find sec 3......they also say in another paragrah that one of the accounts are exempt under the CCA.....

 

Any thoughts? they are in criminal default of providing me with my credit agreement for a credit card.....

 

For a current account they reckon "runnung account creidt is exempt under the CCA" but then say that i am liable under sec 3 of the CCA (something dated 1980 something!)

 

Waht are they talking about?

[Peterbard]

have signed agreements on trade premises in the past where the agreement was not pre-signed by the creditor. It was then sent to the credit provider for approval who signed it after me. This is when those agreements became 'executed' which is similar to the credit card application process.

 

Nope shouldn't happen and it is not at all simillar to the credit card scenario section 62 says personally presented which the distance marketed application isn't,and ther are differen pre contractual arrangements i don't have time to look them up now. But they all ensure that the debtor has final say as to whether the agreement is executed.Common sence really.

Peter

 

peter

Peter

[Peterbard]

I have been told by a DCA that my agreements are relevant under sec 3 of the cca.....I can't find sec 3......they also say in another paragrah that one of the accounts are exempt under the CCA..

 

Hi Uni Chill

 

I think they are talking about section 3 of the 1983 SI which says that copy agreements don't have to be signed.

The answer i give to that is how can i verify it as a true copy if there is no signature ?

Most DCA dont know their A****f rom a hole in the ground just stick to yur timetable and threaten them with the OFT if they don't comply.

Peter

[Peterbard]

So, if the face of the agreement has been sent, no t & c's or statement of account by the dca who bought the debt and sent it 6 months late from expiry of cca request, what do I have to do now? and how does the court order kick in

No I think you are confusing the precontractual section127 with the post contractual request section77-79.

 

If they have not complied with all the terms of the request as stated in the 77 then the agreement is is unenforceable under section79 not 127

Peter

[IIIUMINATI]

PDF]

Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 as amended by the ...

 

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML

also amend the Consumer Credit (Settlement Information) Regulations 1983. ... The OFT has a duty under section 4 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (‘CCA’) ...

www.oft.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/D536ECCA-DBD6-4184-A0F3-5793D32797A4/0/CreditagreementFAQs.pdf - Similar pages

[paulwlton]

3. Credit limit.

From time to time we will work out your credit limit and tell you what it is.

 

This is all their is relating to the ammount of credit on the Barclaycard agreement, i need to find out the prescribed terms for running-account credit, as it may differ from fixed ammount credit.

[un1boy]

I have been told by a DCA that my agreements are relevant under sec 3 of the cca.....I can't find sec 3......they also say in another paragrah that one of the accounts are exempt under the CCA..

 

Hi Uni Chill

 

I think they are talking about section 3 of the 1983 SI which says that copy agreements don't have to be signed.

The answer i give to that is how can i verify it as a true copy if there is no signature ?

Most DCA dont know their A****f rom a hole in the ground just stick to yur timetable and threaten them with the OFT if they don't comply.

Peter

 

 

Ahh, right well I idon't have the letter yet so will double check it....they reckon that the bank's sols have looked at it..

 

The thing is, they have produced an agreement, but no t and c's so they in criminal defualt - I sguess I should just write back now telling them to get a judge to enforce the agreement?

 

I'm in the process of reporting them to TS - do I need to call OFT as well?

[Mike220359]

Again where does it say that a bank needs an has to go to court to be able to enforce the doc when it is produced late.In the 77 it just says the agreement cannot be persued whilst the account is in default once it is presented there is no default.

 

Peter

I'm afraid that it's not that simple for the banks.

 

If they have gone over the prescribed time limits, they have broken the law. End of. If they produce the documentation after the time limit they have still broken the law, it doesn't go away.

 

Turn section 77, 78 & 85 on its head it doesn't say that the agreement is enforceable if the bank produces the agreement after the time limit either does it. Only a court can determine whether an agreemnt is in existance once the contract has been breeched.

 

Mike

[Mike220359]

3. Credit limit.

From time to time we will work out your credit limit and tell you what it is.

 

This is all their is relating to the ammount of credit on the Barclaycard agreement, i need to find out the prescribed terms for running-account credit, as it may differ from fixed ammount credit.

 

Not good enough the amount of credit must be included as a prescribed term

 

Mike

[paulwlton]

Not good enough the amount of credit must be included as a prescribed term

 

Mike

 

 

My initial thought was that too Mike, but i can't help thinking the prescribed terms may differ for running- account credit.

 

Paul.

[Mike220359]

Ahh, right well I idon't have the letter yet so will double check it....they reckon that the bank's sols have looked at it..

 

The thing is, they have produced an agreement, but no t and c's so they in criminal defualt - I sguess I should just write back now telling them to get a judge to enforce the agreement?

 

I'm in the process of reporting them to TS - do I need to call OFT as well?

 

I have copied a number of my complaints regarding the Men In Black to the OFT, they don't actually take on personal cases, but the information that you give them, provided they accept it may be used when they take action against a body. You know that happens when the right back to you with apermission sheet asking whther they can use your case in any actions they rmay take against a body.

 

I don't mind stating proudly that they are using my case studies in potentail actions against Monument, Loyds TSB and Blair Oliver & Scott. Oh, I don't seem to be able to get my head through the door now:D

 

Mike