Cap1 & CCA return

[Mike220359]

Hi Smoothy

 

The regulations apply to the form and content of the agreement. The card issuer normally notifies you of your initial credit limit when they send the card.

 

Regards, Pam

 

That's not good enough if the form you sign is actually an agreement which in alot of cases it isn't.

 

Mike

[InKogneeToh]

Hi all

 

I would not like to think that any members here get the impression that I am siding with the lenders by posting up arguments against your collective thoughts.

 

I am 100% WITH YOU but would hate to see anyone incur large costs/distress/retaliation by starting a fight with these institutions that is not grounded in fact and law.

 

I have a worry that the available copy of the 1983 regs (i.e. the amended 2004 version) is being relied upon in the argument that credit limit/apr etc. must be shown on one document. This is now shown in the 'Key Financial Information' box.

 

Prior to the publishing of the 2004 regs (with amendments) I searched in vain on the internet for the original 1983 regs.

 

I just have a horrible feeling that in the original regs. (which would govern all agreements entered into before new regs. came in to force) there was no requirement for all the terms to be on one single doc.

 

Has anyone got a copy of the original regs?

 

I would like nothing better than to have a bomb-proof case against my creditors but having already been through a three-hearing battle with a creditor over improperly executed agreements (won in the end!) I know that you have to be absolutely certain of your facts.

 

Regards, Pam

[Mike220359]

we will use CRAs to help consider your application.

 

 

Mike: Do's that not breach the Data Protection Act for starters for example your permission.

 

spot on

 

Mike

[Mike220359]

OMG..I have had another look at our credit agreement with A & L/MBNA and guess what it doesn't have?

 

It is headed

 

Please ensure you return both pages so that we may complete your agreement

1, no signature by the bank, where it says for and on behalf of Alliance & leicester with no date completed.

 

2. No credit limit

 

3. no rate of interest

 

4. no terms an conditions

 

5. photocopy of faxed photocopy

 

6. barely legible

 

I am will to scan it for anyone to read if you want to see it.

 

Mike I think you have provided me with a bit more ammunition for next Thursdays teleconference.

 

Tam, what do you think appropro our discussions regarding A & L and their Agreements and practices

 

There you go mate, very simple isn't it.

 

Mike

[Mike220359]

Hi all

 

I would not like to think that any members here get the impression that I am siding with the lenders by posting up arguments against your collective thoughts.

 

I am 100% WITH YOU but would hate to see anyone incur large costs/distress/retaliation by starting a fight with these institutions that is not grounded in fact and law.

 

I have a worry that the available copy of the 1983 regs (i.e. the amended 2004 version) is being relied upon in the argument that credit limit/apr etc. must be shown on one document. This is now shown in the 'Key Financial Information' box.

 

Prior to the publishing of the 2004 regs (with amendments) I searched in vain on the internet for the original 1983 regs.

 

I just have a horrible feeling that in the original regs. (which would govern all agreements entered into before new regs. came in to force) there was no requirement for all the terms to be on one single doc.

 

Has anyone got a copy of the original regs?

 

I would like nothing better than to have a bomb-proof case against my creditors but having already been through a three-hearing battle with a creditor over improperly executed agreements (won in the end!) I know that you have to be absolutely certain of your facts.

 

Regards, Pam

 

I totally agree Pam, you have to sure of your facts and this is why (in my case(s)) I have had no reservation in going down this road. The CCA 1974 and the following legislation(s) are there to protect the consumr. If they have not abided by the regulations then so be it.

 

The MIB have probably consulted with their legal team (or probably not) when they compile the paperwork of all loan applications. But high academic standing does not equate with common sense or intellectual ability, and they can make arogant mistakes. Lord knows I should know in my job.!

 

Trust your instincts, the law is very black & white and not in the slightest bit emotive, unlike us!

 

Be strong, they're wrong.

 

Mike

[rippedoffagain]

Well got there in the end, a lot to take in!

 

It looks to me like the cc companies have tried to speed up and automate the process.

 

I think what should happen is:

 

1) You apply for a card, filling in and signing an application form.

 

2) The cc company run the checks etc, if approved, set a limit.

 

3) The cc company send an agreement stating all the relevant information.

 

4) You sign and return agreement (keeping a copy)

 

5) The cc company send you a second copy of the agreement, complete with their signiture.

 

6) The cc company send you your card.

A very cumbersome process. I guess some bright spark came up with an Idea to speed up the process by combineing the application with the agreement. However it now appears that the cc company might not have paid enough attention to 1974 CCA.

 

Lets face it, the banks have used the Act to bludgeon us with for decades. I suppose they have felt complacent, they can do what they want, we plebs obviously wouldn't understand anyway.

 

As tamadus has said the figures involved are quite staggering. Another thought is that the Courts are becoming log jammed by the actions of maybe only a few thousand :idea: actions, if it turned into a few hundred thousand actions, who knows.

 

How would the banks themselves deal with a few hundred thousand CCA requests hitting them? They don't have the staff to cope, hundreds of thousands of criminal acts simply because they cannot process the claims.

 

I would think that this ought to be investigated by the Serious Crime Unit, it is far bigger than "cash for honours"

 

Excellent work, and I wish all involved success.

[tamadus]

OMG..I have had another look at our credit agreement with A & L/MBNA and guess what it doesn't have?

 

It is headed

 

Please ensure you return both pages so that we may complete your agreement

1, no signature by the bank, where it says for and on behalf of Alliance & leicester with no date completed.

 

2. No credit limit

 

3. no rate of interest

 

4. no terms an conditions

 

5. photocopy of faxed photocopy

 

6. barely legible

 

I am will to scan it for anyone to read if you want to see it.

 

Mike I think you have provided me with a bit more ammunition for next Thursdays teleconference.

 

Tam, what do you think appropro our discussions regarding A & L and their Agreements and practices

 

How does teh application that Barclaycard are trying to convince me is a credit agreement sound?

 

1. No mention of the Consumer Credit Act whatsoever.

 

2. None of the above fiddly bits like T&C

 

3. It uses a rubber stamp as the signed on behalf of bit right in the middle of the page.

 

4. Did I mention the words Consumer Credit Act 1974 and regulated by don't appear anywhere on it ?

 

I actually had a reply to my last letter today and they still claim this is the executed agreement and conforms to sec 78 of the Act. They are also looking into the issuing of a default notice in December and reporting back. What about the second one in January?

 

They are also looking into me only getting 5 1/2 years of data for my SAR, whats the betting I might get another 6 months worth, when I asked for MY ENTIRE HISTORY.

 

MIB for Barclaycard please make a note and report this back. I want my entire history because thats how long I intend claiming for because you do not and never have had a properly executed and regulated agreeement under the CCA.

[tamadus]

Well got there in the end, a lot to take in!

 

It looks to me like the cc companies have tried to speed up and automate the process.

 

I think what should happen is:

 

1) You apply for a card, filling in and signing an application form.

 

2) The cc company run the checks etc, if approved, set a limit.

 

3) The cc company send an agreement stating all the relevant information.

 

4) You sign and return agreement (keeping a copy)

 

5) The cc company send you a second copy of the agreement, complete with their signiture.

 

6) The cc company send you your card.

 

A very cumbersome process. I guess some bright spark came up with an Idea to speed up the process by combineing the application with the agreement. However it now appears that the cc company might not have paid enough attention to 1974 CCA.

 

Lets face it, the banks have used the Act to bludgeon us with for decades. I suppose they have felt complacent, they can do what they want, we plebs obviously wouldn't understand anyway.

 

As tamadus has said the figures involved are quite staggering. Another thought is that the Courts are becoming log jammed by the actions of maybe only a few thousand :idea: actions, if it turned into a few hundred thousand actions, who knows.

 

How would the banks themselves deal with a few hundred thousand CCA requests hitting them? They don't have the staff to cope, hundreds of thousands of criminal acts simply because they cannot process the claims.

 

I would think that this ought to be investigated by the Serious Crime Unit, it is far bigger than "cash for honours"

 

Excellent work, and I wish all involved success.

 

I totally agree they have tried to speed up and automate the process to the point they messed it up totally.

[Mike220359]

I would think that this ought to be investigated by the Serious Crime Unit, it is far bigger than "cash for honours"

 

Excellent work, and I wish all involved success.

I would agree unfortunatly this is civil and contract law with a fringe of criminal

Mike

[mcuth]

THERE WAS A LINK at

 

http://www.john.antell.name/CCA1974.htm

 

john.antell.name/CCA1974.htm

but this has disappeared in the last month !!!!!

 

now IAM SURE IT HAS NOT DISAPPEARED "BY CO-INCIDENCE" !!!

 

No need to get excited, they're still in the same place they always were - no collusion, no intimidation, no conspiracy theory, no underhand dealings, no cartels, etc.. etc.. etc... (and no such domain as john.antell.name )

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Cheers

 

Michael

[zubo]

Nutty / Zubo

 

If this is a loan, shouldn't the request be under s77 and not s78? Section 77 is for loans and 78 is revolving credit agreements (i.e. credit / store cards?)

 

Coprrect Fixed sum credit section 77Thats why i always put 77=78 just to make sure i don't get it wrong

 

Peter

 

thanks guys... it was too late in the night - I just needed nutty to know that the Regs did apply to his case and gives him remedies......

[paulwlton]

Well Barclaycard know my stance, now the ball is truly in their court. Criminal default, an improper executed agreement, appling interest and unlawful charges whilst in default.

Bring it on.

[nuttybutty]

Nutty

 

Its kinda in the right thread for now I'm sure a moderator will move it so that you can start your own thread.

 

You will find umpteen examples where people are in exact same situation. First step is to send them IF a recorded letter stating that you are requesting a copy of your executed agreement as specified in Section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. They have 12 days to respond then they are in default, cannot charge interest - do nothing really.

Its late otherwise I would find a good example - look through this thread. Begin to understand what you expect. Insist also that all communications need to be in writing. oh - you need to send £1.

 

Next research other threads so that you can also submit a request for a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) - a request under the Data Protection Act which for £10 entitles you to check for unlawful charges.

 

Get yourself organized, look at the FAQ and follow exactly the procedures layed down. Do not rush, research nobody can do anything whilst you are following due process.

 

gotta go, keep reading....

 

 

Cheers Zubo,

 

I'm going to sort out asking for a copy of my executed agreement over the weekend and take it from there.

 

Must admit it's hard to understand some of the jargon used on here and with so many related threads and posts you lose track sometimes, but as it looks like I do have a claim against IF/HBOS - or that's my understanding anyway - I'll begin the process.

 

Nuttybutty

[tamadus]

Well Barclaycard know my stance, now the ball is truly in their court. Criminal default, an improper executed agreement, appling interest and unlawful charges whilst in default.

Bring it on.

 

Likewise Paul, The email I sent last night makes it abundantly clear what situation they are in and why I want the entire history in my SAR. It's also good that we are both, it seems, now through to their regulatory and compliance department, which to my mind means somebody has finally realised the lower departments like customer service can no longer deal with the issues raised.

[maybelline]

standard reply I have received states that

 

'your reliance on OFT guidance is in relation to credit card, bank overdraft, store card and mortgge default charges and NOT those of regualted HP agreements'

 

I dont have a HP agreement and if I do how do you apply mortgage indemnity guarantee to it??

 

also 'MIF' (not MIG)?

 

no repayment

 

this sounds like nonsense to me

[maybelline]

WF 'Mortgage Indemnity Fee was included in the total advance so in the event of us enforcing our security Welcome would not pursue you should thre be insuffiecient funds to cover the loan'

 

what does this mean? insufficient funds from where, from a property with equity of over £100K on a 5K loan?????

 

also - they want me to send to them a copy of my credit file???????in order to consider default query,

 

how absurd and what an abuse of regs.

 

p.s. how does one put Mortgage Indemnity Guarantee charges onto a Hire Purchase Agreement???????????????:(

[un1boy]

In terms of current accounts/OD's and the CCA- I have had a DCA send me a letter saying that my account is an example of running-account credit, which they reckon is not covered under the CCA...

 

I am sendning them a letter today explaining that running-account credit is covered.

 

I'll let you all know what happens!

[maybelline]

surely the regs are not so open to interpretation that the dca's and finance companie can just read what they like into them, obviously neither can we, but there are plenty of people discussing the regs who have legal training on here and have had advice from elsewhere also, hopefully the judges also understand the regs well enough:)

[Guest Battleaxe]

I have to send my credit file to ICO regarding one of my complaints for non-compliance. I am wondering if the firm involved has told the ICO that they will remove the default and the ICO wants proof and I am the onoly one who can get my credit file inder the DPA?

[Guest Battleaxe]

Maybelline, I think the companies do try to fob us off with their interpretation of the regs, hoping that we will swallow whatever they tell us. Only difference is now, we are better educated and are prepared to call them on these regs now, or to put in the parlance of me dear 94 year old dad, 'put up or shut up'. He taught us not to venture an opinion unless we were on very sure ground, because he was always prepared to shoot us down.

[Peterbard]

Hi JUst a thought but with all the talk about the information gers regarding distnce maketing contracts are we aware of this.

14.9 What requirements apply to distance contracts?

The Information Regulations do not apply to distance contracts, as defined. Consumer credit agreements which are distance contracts are subject instead to the Distance Marketing Regulations – see chapter 17. Consumer hire agreements are not a ‘financial service’ and so, if distance contracts, are subject to the Distance Selling Regulations – see Q17.2.

Peter

[elizabeth1]

Hi JUst a thought but with all the talk about the information gers regarding distnce maketing contracts are we aware of this.

14.9 What requirements apply to distance contracts?

The Information Regulations do not apply to distance contracts, as defined. Consumer credit agreements which are distance contracts are subject instead to the Distance Marketing Regulations – see chapter 17. Consumer hire agreements are not a ‘financial service’ and so, if distance contracts, are subject to the Distance Selling Regulations – see Q17.2.

Peter

 

 

PETER "BLARGH!!!" That's it - my head is frazzled now - everytime I begin to understand this stuff - some new worms appears!!!

 

Why can't they write this in simple Lizzy terms??

[Peterbard]

Hi

I know what you mean

 

But There is an upside to this which needs checking out so i shouldn't really say,but i will any way and risk getting jumped on.

If the above regs don't apply then section 3 won't apply whic is the one that says that sigs arn't nessecarry on copy agreements.

So creditors would have to supply coppies of signed distance marketed agreements as per sectio77.

Maybee.

I will keep you posted and seek help to verify.Are you listening Tam.

 

Regs Oops i mean regards

 

Peter

Peter

[InKogneeToh]

Hi

 

Overdrafts are covered by the CCA but are exempt from some of the requirements.

 

Regards, Pam

[Peterbard]

Hi

Yes as per

74 Exclusion of certain agreements from Part V

(1) This Part (except section 56) does not apply to—

(2) This Part (except sections 55 and 56) does not apply to a small debtor -creditor-supplier

agreement for restricted -use credit.

[(2A) In the case of an agreement to which the Consumer Protection (Cancellation of

Contracts Concluded away from Business Premises) Regulations 1987 apply the reference

in subsection (2) to a small agreement shall be construed as if in section 17(1)(a) and (b)

“£35” were substituted for “£50”.]

(a) a non-commercial agreement, or

(b) a debtor-creditor agreement enabling the debtor to overdraw on a current

account, or

© a debtor-creditor agreement to finance the making of such payments

 

 

Unfortunately part 5 covers the legislation on suplying copy agreements.

 

Peter