Cap1 & CCA return

[Peterbard]

HI

 

I yse the spreadsheet which i took from the oft guice oft 144 it,s on the web site i think.

The problem with the web calculators is that they rarley make accomodation for irregular payments like an option to puchase fee stuck on the last one or a charge at the begining of the repayment period,all of which can of course drastically effect the APR

 

Peter

[Peterbard]

Not doubting the formula mate. I very much doubt the banks and their ability to be correct .

 

 

Yes and it is worth double checking that the iterest rate quoted on their APRis correct does the calculation give you a higher or lower figure?

 

Peter

[phatram]

Yes and it is worth double checking that the iterest rate quoted on their APRis correct does the calculation give you a higher or lower figure?

 

Peter

A lower figure. I'm going to post them up for people to have a look.

[phatram]

No 1.

 

[Peterbard]

HI

 

7.94% APR I get.

I think i may have made an error in order to use the formuala i gave you you have to write monthly your percentage as a decimal ie 1% = .01 and then stick a 1 in front so it woud be 1.01 we call it standard form.

 

Sorry you forget when you do it all day.

 

Peter

Edited April 15, 2009 by Dodgeball
having a really bad day

[phatram]

No 2

 

[Peterbard]

can you make it a bit bigger as th actress said to the bishop.

 

Cant read it

[Having_A_Knightmare]

can you make it a bit bigger as th actress said to the bishop.

 

Cant read it

Great Ricky Gervais saying....

[Peterbard]

To us old beggars

it was Frankie Howard. ooh missus.

 

Peter:)

[Peterbard]

Hi magda:)

 

yes I agree. I deleted out the original questions I asked the prof, basically it was why he said sig should be on same page thats all in the 2002 edition of his book. Weird thing is he mentions 2004 agreement regs and yet when he wrote the 2002 edition the 1983 regulations were in force. So odd he says that!!!

 

Anyway,peter explained all of it after that and that the sig box could be anywhere In the letter it says 'appears to' - basically his interpretation of the agreement regs not concrete if you get my drift.

 

I do believe that importnat terms should not be on the reverse but thats me okay, as they are it seems in many agreements on the reverse in other docs bought to court by solicitors swearing on oath that they formed part of the original agreement, there does not seem to be much to sway that and judges seem to accept all this from the creditors.

 

I still am going to ask the prof some other questions.

 

millY XX

 

HI

 

This is a copy of the OFT guidlides from a pamphlet produced in 2001 it may be of help all of thesse terms nust be included within the signature document.

 

What the agreement must contain

 

 

 

1 A heading in one of the following forms of words shown prominently on the first page:

Hire-Purchase Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974

or

Conditional Sale Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974

or

 

, in any other case,

Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

 

Where the document embodies an agreement, of which at least one part is a credit agreement not regulated by the Act, the word ‘partly’ must be inserted before ‘regulated’ in the heading – unless the regulated and unregulated parts of the agreement can be clearly seen to be separate.

 

 

 

 

2 The name and a postal address of both trader and customer.

 

 

 

3 A description (in enough detail to identify it) of any security to be provided by the customer and a description of its subject matter. The description must be in the main agreement but the full terms can be in a separate document referred to in the main agreement.

 

 

4 Details of any default charges which the customer or a relative of his is required to pay if he breaches the agreement.

 

 

5 Certain financial and related particulars (see below).

 

6 Statements of certain forms of protection and remedies provided for the customer

 

7 A signature box

 

Point to note

In the case of regulated agreements (principal agreements) which contain the option of credit protection insurance or other contracts relating to a guarantee of goods (subsidiary agreements) the heading, statement of protection and remedies available to debtors under the Act, and

signature box applicable to the principal agreement may be used where these are different from those which would be applicable to the subsidiary agreement.

 

 

Financial and related particulars

 

The following information must be shown together as a whole and not interspersed with any other nformation, apart from cross-references to terms of the agreement and subtotals of the total amounts.

 

1 In the case of agreements for fixed-sum credit where the money must be spent on specified goods, land or services, a list or description of the items, together with their cash price. Where there is more than one list or description of the items to be bought with the credit, the cash price of each must be shown, together with the total cash price. For instance: ‘mahogany dining room suite, six chairs and one table, £1,500; colour TV £298; total cash price £1,798’. Where there is more than one list or description, the cash prices and descriptions can be shown in a schedule to the agreement, provided that the agreement itself refers to the schedule and states the total cash price.

 

Points to note

The cash price is the price at which the seller would be prepared to sell to a buyer for cash.

It excludes any credit charges and is net of any discount offered to the customer.

‘Specified goods’ etc means goods agreed upon before the agreement is made. Thus these

are specified goods for a hire-purchase agreement but not, for example, for a trading check.

 

 

2 The amount and nature of any advance payment. This includes a deposit, any amount allowed in part exchange, and any other payment the customer has to make before being provided with credit or before entering into the agreement.

 

3 The amount of credit to be provided under a fixed-sum agreement (for example, a cash loan) or particulars of the credit limit under a running-account agreement (for example, a credit card).

 

The credit limit can be expressed as:

a a sum of money,

or

b a statement that the trader will, under the agreement, periodically determine

the credit limit and notify the customer,

or

c a sum of money together with a statement that the trader may, under the agreement, periodically vary the credit limit and notify the customer,

or

d if (a) (b) or © above are not appropriate eithera tatement indicating how the credit limit will be determined and notified to the customer

or a statement that there is no credit limit.

 

 

Point to note

Under a fixed-sum agreement where the credit must be spent on specified goods, land or services, the amount of credit will be the total cash price less any advance payments. If there are no advance payments, nor any charges for credit under such an agreement, the amount of credit (which will be the same as the total cash price) need not be shown.

 

4 The total charge for credit and the total amount payable by the customer in the case of most fixed-sum agreements. The exceptions are given in the ‘points to note’ below. Charges payable by the customer that form part of the total charge for credit are explained in the booklet Credit charges and APR

The total amount payable is the sum of the amount of credit provided under the agreement,the total charge for credit and any advance payments. If either the total charge for credit or the total amount payable cannot be precisely calculated, an estimate can be shown – provided that this and any assumptions made in the estimate are stated.

 

Points to note

Point 4 does not apply to fixed-sum agreements where:

The credit must be spent on specified goods or services, and the total amount payable is not more than the total cash price (that is, there are nocredit charges). Nor does it apply to fixed-sum agreements under which the timing and/or amounts of repayments of credit are not specified, or the total amount payable can vary according to any formula specified in the agreement (including the level of any index, for example the house price index), or the amount or rate of any credit charge can vary (whether in accordance with the level of an index, for example, bank base rate or otherwise). In these cases, the details of interest and other charges to be shown are the same as those required for running-account agreements, as explained below.

 

 

 

5 In the case of all running-account agreements and of any fixed-sum agreements of the sort mentioned immediately above, the rate of interest and the total amount of other credit charges (for example a commitment fee).

 

 

 

Point to note

 

 

If the amount of any credit charge other than interest cannot be stated, its rate or how it is to be calculated must be shown. If interest or any other credit charge is shown on an estimated basis, this and any assumptions made in the estimate must be stated.

 

 

6 The timing and amount of repayments of credit and credit charges. Timing can be shown by one or more of the following methods:

 

the dates on which each repayment is to be made,

 

 

or

 

 

the frequency and number of repayments together with the first repayment date, or how this is to be calculated,

 

 

or

 

 

a statement showing how the dates of repayment are to be determined.

 

 

 

The amount of each repayment can be shown as a sum of money, or as a proportion of an outstanding balance, or as a proportion of a specified amount (or by any combination of these factors). If it is not possible to use any of these methods, there must be a statement of how the repayments will be calculated.

 

 

7 The APR which must be denoted as ‘annual percentage rate of the total charge for credit’, ‘APR’ or ‘annual percentage rate’. The only case in which the APR need not be shown is in a fixed-sum agreement for credit to be spent on specified goods or services where the total amount payable is the same as the total cash price (that is, there are no credit charges). In that case there must be a statement indicating this.

 

Points to note

 

 

Under an agreement where any part of the total charge for credit will or can vary, there must be – linked with the disclosure of the APR – a statement that this has not been taken into account in calculating the APR and indicating how, and where possible when, any variation may occur.

 

 

If the APR takes account of life assurance premiums paid to an insurance company net of income tax, this must be stated.

 

 

Some tolerances are permitted in calculating the rate of APR and the disclosure of it. These are similar to those for the APR disclosed in credit advertisements and quotations (see the booklet Credit charges and APR).

 

 

The APR must also be as prominently displayed as any other piece of financial information (including any statement of a rate of interest).

 

Statements of customer’s protection and remedies

 

 

Statements about the main rights of customers provided by the Act must be included in the agreement in the form set out in Appendix 1.

 

The statements about termination and repossession of goods, in the case of hire-purchase or conditional sale agreements, must be shown together as a whole with the financial and related particulars described on pages 9–12 and not interspersed with any other information. (See tatement 4 in Appendix 1.) Alternatively these statements can be shown elsewhere (for example, on the reverse of the agreement) as long as a reference to them is included with the financial and related particulars. All statements in Appendix 1 must reproduce the specified wording. Where words are shown in capital letters they must be made more prominent (by using capital letters, underlining, large or bold print, or in any other way) than any other lettering in the form and no less prominent than any other information in the agreement, apart from the heading, the APR, trade names, names of parties to the agreement, or handwriting.

The statements draw the customer’s attention to the following:

 

1 His cancellation rights in all cases. The most common form will be statement 2 in Appendix 1. Statements 1 and 3 are designed for the special cases described in the Appendix. As indicated in the Appendix, the words must be inside a ‘box’. This box must be placed immediately above, below or beside the signature box.

 

2 His right to terminate a hire-purchase or conditional sale agreement before the agreement has expired, and his protection when a trader repossesses goods because the customer fails to keep up payments (statement 4 in Appendix 1). In these respects the position is the same as under the Hire-Purchase Acts.

 

3 The possibility of a rebate in some cases if a customer pays off his account early, and his protection under the Act generally. See statement 8. The right to a rebate will apply when a customer pays off his debt early on or after 19 May 1985. The agreement concerned can itself have been made before that date. Rebates on early settlement are explained in the booklet Matters arising during the lifetime of an agreement. Statement 6 is similar, but also points out that if a supplier of goods or services is in breach of contract, then – where they are different persons – both the supplier of the goods or services and the supplier of the credit can be sued in the case of agreements covered by section 75 of the Act (for example,credit provided for the supply of goods or services, or goods or services bought with a bank credit card). These agreements are explained in the booklet Equal liability 4 Under credit token agreements, for example, a bank credit card agreement, the customer can be made liable for any loss up to £50 arising from misuse of a credit token which has been lost or stolen. As well as complying with the form and content requirements such credit token agreements must show prominently the name, address and telephone number of the person or company to whom loss or theft should be reported. The agreement must reproduce statement 9 in Appendix 1.

 

 

Legibility

The agreement may be printed, typed, or handwritten, or a combination of these. There are no regulations governing the size of lettering as there were under the Hire-Purchase Acts.

In all cases, however, the main parts of the agreement – containing terms of the agreement or other required information – must be easily legible. The colour of the lettering (including figures and symbols) must be readily distinguishable from the colour of the paper. These requirements do not apply to signatures or to information not required by the Act or Regulations (for example, information for ‘office use only’).

 

Point to note

There is an additional requirement in the Act itself that when the agreement is presented or sent to the customer for signature, all its terms must be readily legible. This means that, for example, it must not be fastened together in such a way that the customer has difficulty reading the terms.

 

 

Signatures

All agreements are to be signed by both customer and trader, or their representatives, and the date of signature entered. The customer’s signature and its date must be inside a box. This box can be of any size and appear anywhere in the agreement, but the wording inside it must be easily legible and must follow that for the appropriate type of agreement as set out in Appendix 2. The signature of the trader and its date must be outside the customer’s signature box. Similarly the signature of any witness, and its date, must also be outside the customer’s signature box.

 

Point to note

In the case of regulated agreements (principal agreements) which contain the option of credit protection insurance or other contracts relating to a guarantee of goods (subsidiary agreements) the signature box which is applicable to the principal agreement only may be used where this is different from that which would be applicable to the subsidiary agreement.

 

 

Best regards

Peter

[pt2537]

HI Paul

 

total credit 15000 OK

 

repayments 298.65 OK

 

Total amopunt payable 25086.6 OK

 

APR 17.32% oh oh

 

What they have done is include the insurance premium costs in the total charge for credit and not factored it into the evaluation of the APR.

 

In other words if they would have done the calculation with the instalments at 241 84 they would have been coorect in that the APR would have been 9.45% but the the tap would have been wrong.

 

YOu have been scandelously misslead about the value of your loan IMO.

 

If they say we forgot to put the figure in the credit then that is admiting they have missrepresetned a priescribed terms and anyway if they did that the APR would work out at 6.5% so no go there either.

 

Good hunting

 

Peter

Exactley, and in fact id be so bold as to argue that the result of this is the repayments are incorrectly stated as well,

 

 

Game over though really peter isnt it

[Peterbard]

Exactley, and in fact id be so bold as to argue that the result of this is the repayments are incorrectly stated as well,

 

 

Game over though really peter isnt it

 

Hi

Yes i would say so

 

It looks to me like they intednde to put a figure in the optional box on the agreement but forgot.

This of course made the total credit incorrect and then they just adde it to the total amount paid.

 

It isnt listed within there stated figure for tcc but if it isnt in the credit where else can it be.

 

They could say it was a completely sepperate agreement and they just added the ammout in to the repayments but that wont wash of course the agreement must only contain what is relevant to a prticular bargain.

Besides you can't just go adding things into the tcc without showing its effect on the APR.

I think they are stuffed.

 

Peter

[millymollymoo]

Oh dear bad news concerning an illegible agreement and the judge accepting seperate docs sworn on oath.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2105708.html

 

Milly X

[pt2537]

Oh dear bad news concerning an illegible agreement and the judge accepting seperate docs sworn on oath.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2105708.html

 

Milly X

always going to be a problem if youre a litigant in person, thats the trouble, having counsel makes a huge difference

[millymollymoo]

always going to be a problem if youre a litigant in person, thats the trouble, having counsel makes a huge difference

 

 

yes I see that joan referred to that, she said it was very frightening and she felt like the baby fox and their barrister the huntsman:(

 

Milly X

[Peterbard]

Oh dear bad news concerning an illegible agreement and the judge accepting seperate docs sworn on oath.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2105708.html

 

Milly X

 

HI yes this is simmilar to the one i mentioned earlier on here.

 

I certainly feel for joan.i know exactly how she must be feeling. I have been there to often.

 

This is why we must make sure that our cases are watertight before we go to court every loss makes it harder for the next person.

 

Peter

[pt2537]

yes I see that joan referred to that, she said it was very frightening and she felt like the baby fox and their barrister the huntsman:(

 

Milly X

sadly its true though, thats why the banks dont often back away from a LIP but they do back down a lot quicker when you have Bradley say or steven neville or steven turner etc in your corner

[Number6]

always going to be a problem if youre a litigant in person, thats the trouble, having counsel makes a huge difference

 

OK, so:

 

1) How does one go about instructing counsel?

 

2) What's the likely cost for a case of this nature?

 

3) How does one judge whether one has a fighting chance of winning before deciding to instruct. For example, in Joan of Arc's case referred to - would it have been worth instructing? On the balance of probabilities?

 

Pete

[pt2537]

ah yes now thats the 64 million dollar question

 

you may be able to get a solicitor who works on a conditional fee agreement, who can then get counsel on a CFA, which costs you nowt

 

 

if you have to instruct counsel you have two ways, through a solicitor or through direct access/ pro bono

 

 

to give an estimate of costs is impossible, it depends on the hourly rate, etc

 

as for assessing the chances? if its worth instructing counsel ,most solicitors will give you 30 mins free to start with and you will hopefully get a good idea, again, tricky to answer that with any certainty,

[NWJ]

I have come across several firms who will run a CCA claim on a CFA and have Chambers behind them to work on that basis as well - can provide details if interested?

[Number6]

I have come across several firms who will run a CCA claim on a CFA and have Chambers behind them to work on that basis as well - can provide details if interested?

 

Yes please NWJ. Could you PM me?

 

Pete

[Number6]

ah yes now thats the 64 million dollar question

 

you may be able to get a solicitor who works on a conditional fee agreement, who can then get counsel on a CFA, which costs you nowt

 

 

if you have to instruct counsel you have two ways, through a solicitor or through direct access/ pro bono

 

 

to give an estimate of costs is impossible, it depends on the hourly rate, etc

 

as for assessing the chances? if its worth instructing counsel ,most solicitors will give you 30 mins free to start with and you will hopefully get a good idea, again, tricky to answer that with any certainty,

 

Thanks pt.

 

No disrespect intended but this is the answer that all legal bods give you, I'm not saying it's wrong but there has to be some sort of rule of thumb that can be applied? At least about the applicability of the copy agreement etc? Are there no barristers who will take on a case like this on a fixed fee basis? I mean from case to case in similar cases there can't be that much time variation, or shouldn't be, so the brief should have a reasonable idea of the likely cost surely?

 

It's this type of ambiguity that prevents most people seeking justice because they have no information on which to base an analysis of the likely costs and chances of winning.

 

Pete

Edited April 15, 2009 by Number6

[NWJ]

Hi Pete. will do - once I have worked out how to do that! - new member

 

However, as a rule of thumb most Counsel work on a fixed fee if it is a fast track case - the average fees for a solicitor on a CFA is 10 - 12 hrs of billed time plus an uplift of at least 50% - thats why they will run CCA claims - this is for claims where the agreement is in breach of s60-61 and schedule 6 - cases where the lender has failed to disclose are a different animal. hope that helps

[Viscount Stair]

The reason legal bods never give a straight answer is that there is never one to be given.

 

Or would you prefer they told you what you wanted to hear, regardless?

 

Sorry if that comes across as brutal but no two cases are the same and no two judges are the same either.

[phatram]

No 1.

 

 

LOAN AMOUNT £25000

TOTAL AMOUNT PAYABLE £35874

MONTHLY PAYMENT £298.95

 

APR IS 7.9%