Cap1 & CCA return

[JonCris]

pt under NO circumstances should the OP sign another agreement. If they do they will lose the protection of the 74 Act & at the very least provide them with a new copy of an agreement, the original of whaih they may have lost & which they can use to enforce the debt

 

Many, many creditors are trying this on. Sending out 'new/replacement' contracts on some pretext or other & unfortunately some debtors are falling into the trap.

[gaz2006]

Hi Everone can you help me please in Feb asked Lloyds TSB for copy of credit agrements sent by recorded letter heard nothing wrote again said they were in default nothing heard . Started to get letters from Sechiari Clark & Mitchell I told them this was unenfoceable debt they ignored it and said proof of debt was sending statements to my address !! They have now issued claim in northampton court for £4725 what do I do .... I have had no copy of agreement so dont know if Lloyds have one or whether its executed properly . I would also point out some but not all of debt made up of penalties etc which I haven made a claim for yet ....The solictors above acting for lloyds are I believe in house ones they dont answer my letters now I have to defend claim what do i put .... do I ask to be struck out as Lloyds havent supplied cca form etc any help would be most appreciated and any guidence what to do Regards Gaz

[pt2537]

Hi Gaz

 

its probably best if you start your own thread in the debt forum http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/ theres a lot of people with knowledge of these situations who can help you out

 

SC&M are Lloyds own in house sols and im not surprised theyve ignored your letters, when i took them (lloyds) to court they ignored the judges orders so hey ho

 

we can help you with a defence to this as well, so dont panic

 

firstly, you need to ask for disclosure of the documents they are going to rely on

 

In the XXXX County Court

Claimant -v- (YOUR NAME)

Claim Number: (CLAIM NUMBER)

 

 

Dear XXX

 

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION

 

I have received a recent court claim from your organisation. In order to file a defence and counter claim I require some information. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below.

 

The information must be furnished within fourteen days of the receipt of this letter. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an Order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

 

1. A true copy of the executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

2. All records you hold on me relevant to this case, including but not limited to:

 

a. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

b. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with *********.

c. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

d.Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

e. Details of any collection charge added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

f. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

g. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

h. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

i. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

 

3. Any other documents you seek to rely on in court.

 

 

I will require this information within the next fourteen days. I must advise you that if the information is not forthcoming, it will be reported to the Court that you are trying to frustrate proceedings and denying me the opportunity to file a defence and counter claim.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

XXXX (type, don't sign).

 

* amend to suit

 

you need to send this letter as a matter of urgency to SC&M . send it by special delivery NOT standard recorded as it needs to get there ASAP and you need guaranteed proof of delivery

 

if you can start your own thread in the debt forum we can help you with all the info and guidance you need

 

 

regards

paul

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Well Im getting P**sed off with my T/S

 

sent a letter of complaint to the cheif executive regarding them not enforcing s78(1) because they have not sent the original T&C.

 

My responce is under the copy doc regs 1983 they only have to send the varied copy.

 

Banging my head against a wall. Has anybody got anything else I can throw at them.

 

Also it says on the agreement that i have the right to cancel so surley all this info is in the original T&C.

 

 

HAK

[Peterbard]

FAO peterbard

 

can you please take a look at this thread please http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/122355-welcome-finance-shall-i.html

 

i run the figures through dualcalc and there are some discrepancies with the figures that coime back

 

also welcome are pressuring the OP to sign a new agreement

 

thnks

 

paul

 

Hi Paul

 

posted response on op thread

 

Best regards

peter

[JonCris]

Gaz all you need put on your defence is the following statement & being a MCOL it fits in nicely:

 

"I, the defendant, am unable to plead as the Claimant has failed to particularize their claim";)

 

Should bring it all to a grinding halt. Then when & if it starts again you can then do a part 18 request whilst pointing out, to the court, the debt is in dispute.

 

If they want to play games so can we & that should pee them off nicely.

[car2403]

Hi Everone can you help me please in Feb asked Lloyds TSB for copy of credit agrements sent by recorded letter heard nothing wrote again said they were in default nothing heard . Started to get letters from Sechiari Clark & Mitchell I told them this was unenfoceable debt they ignored it and said proof of debt was sending statements to my address !! They have now issued claim in northampton court for £4725 what do I do .... I have had no copy of agreement so dont know if Lloyds have one or whether its executed properly . I would also point out some but not all of debt made up of penalties etc which I haven made a claim for yet ....The solictors above acting for lloyds are I believe in house ones they dont answer my letters now I have to defend claim what do i put .... do I ask to be struck out as Lloyds havent supplied cca form etc any help would be most appreciated and any guidence what to do Regards Gaz

 

Gaz, I think you should follow Paul's advice and start your own thread. These things can get tricky and without the full background to your case, you may get incorrect or misleading advice. If you have your own thread, it's easier to track and advise what is the best thing to do.

 

Gaz all you need put on your defence is the following statement & being a MCOL it fits in nicely:

 

"I, the defendant, am unable to plead as the Claimant has failed to particularize their claim";)

 

Should bring it all to a grinding halt. Then when & if it starts again you can then do a part 18 request whilst pointing out, to the court, the debt is in dispute.

 

If they want to play games so can we & that should pee them off nicely.

 

This made be laugh, (and probably applies to most of the claims I have ongoing) but I'm concerned that Gaz follows this... I think I get your sense of humour, JonCris, (similar to mine!) but I don't want Gaz to think your being 100% serious.

[pecky1]

Help needed, came one here in Aug.

regarding aHomeShoppingLoanhad cancelled the ppi was advised to write and ask for modified CCA as the one that exsists now does not have the right prescribed terms and conditions. Have requested twice since recieved a statement looks like some of this PPI is still on the amount owing, have requested CCA to see what they come up with posted 19/11/07 no response yet but have recieved a default notice for the remainder to be paid by the 6/12/07 there is approx 3.000 pounds difference in what they say we owe then what i make it with the PPi taken off. I have posted a thread in the Bank of Scotland forum but havent had much feedback as to what to do next the 12+2 working days will be up beforethe default is due we are still paying a monthly sum only not the amount that they want. Sorry to hi-jack can any one advise on my next step

[noomill060]

This chap could do with a bit of advice:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/105476-cca-response-2.html

[noomill060]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/122309-id-say-were-winning-2.html

 

From CAG member andrew1:

 

I'm sure CT mag won't mind me lifting this over and letting people know the effect we are having on these DCA's. Something the Consumer Action Group have been working at for ages:the Cabot Fan Club has been encouraging people to pound these DCA's with requests to abide by the law and they don't like what we are doing, but it is making its mark and whilst they call us 'rougue debtors' and say we are teaching people to 'Avoid Debt' this is living proof that our campaign is completely the opposite to what they think - all we want is for them to operate within the law and do things correctly - well - someone has noticed! Well done everyone we ARE winning...: enjoy

 

Credit Today online

 

- 29/11/2007

Stark warning on CCA preparations

 

The industry has to be ready to comply with Consumer Credit Act regulations coming in over the next year or it faces successful challenges from increasingly powerful debtors.

 

That was the message at the Credit Today collections conference in Birmingham yesterday. Joanne Davis, partner in credit and asset finance at BPE solicitors, said there will be more defences available to debtors as creditors are obliged to follow strict guidelines for sending default protection information sheets and default protection arrears notices.

 

"If you don't do it you can't enforce," she said. "Debtors will know of these duties and if a default protection arrears notice is not sent they have an excuse for non payment."

 

Davis added that creditors need to think carefully about who takes on these responsibilities when they place or sell debts.

 

"It is very cumbersome. There are lots of notices to be sent and some lenders are looking at cutting down on default sums because of the complicated regulations."

 

Meanwhile, George Wilkinson of Wilkinson Associates said there is a 'regulation crunch' affecting the industry. "The OFT has substantially increased powers and they can hurt you," he warned.

 

"You're going to spend a lot more time and money on training and procedures and will be collecting less," he added. "

[pt2537]

Hi Paul

 

posted response on op thread

 

Best regards

peter

 

Thanks Peter ,

 

much appreciated

 

regards

paul

[JonCris]

Gaz, I think you should follow Paul's advice and start your own thread. These things can get tricky and without the full background to your case, you may get incorrect or misleading advice. If you have your own thread, it's easier to track and advise what is the best thing to do.

 

 

 

This made be laugh, (and probably applies to most of the claims I have ongoing) but I'm concerned that Gaz follows this... I think I get your sense of humour, JonCris, (similar to mine!) but I don't want Gaz to think your being 100% serious.

 

I'm being absolutely serious. If they have failed to include the relevent documentation with their POC (Particulars of Claim) then it's a perfectly valid response. I have used it successfully on a number of occasions

[car2403]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/122309-id-say-were-winning-2.html

 

From CAG member andrew1:

 

I'm sure CT mag won't mind me lifting this over and letting people know the effect we are having on these DCA's. Something the Consumer Action Group have been working at for ages:the Cabot Fan Club has been encouraging people to pound these DCA's with requests to abide by the law and they don't like what we are doing, but it is making its mark and whilst they call us 'rougue debtors' and say we are teaching people to 'Avoid Debt' this is living proof that our campaign is completely the opposite to what they think - all we want is for them to operate within the law and do things correctly - well - someone has noticed! Well done everyone we ARE winning...: enjoy

 

Credit Today online

 

- 29/11/2007

Stark warning on CCA preparations

 

The industry has to be ready to comply with Consumer Credit Act regulations coming in over the next year or it faces successful challenges from increasingly powerful debtors.

 

That was the message at the Credit Today collections conference in Birmingham yesterday. Joanne Davis, partner in credit and asset finance at BPE solicitors, said there will be more defences available to debtors as creditors are obliged to follow strict guidelines for sending default protection information sheets and default protection arrears notices.

 

"If you don't do it you can't enforce," she said. "Debtors will know of these duties and if a default protection arrears notice is not sent they have an excuse for non payment."

 

Davis added that creditors need to think carefully about who takes on these responsibilities when they place or sell debts.

 

"It is very cumbersome. There are lots of notices to be sent and some lenders are looking at cutting down on default sums because of the complicated regulations."

 

Meanwhile, George Wilkinson of Wilkinson Associates said there is a 'regulation crunch' affecting the industry. "The OFT has substantially increased powers and they can hurt you," he warned.

 

"You're going to spend a lot more time and money on training and procedures and will be collecting less," he added. "

 

They STILL don't get that these information sheets/arrears notices are designed for the DEBTORS protection - they seem to consider these a hoop to jump through rather than a legitimate part of the process of enforcement.

 

Lets hope they continue to get this wrong, as it strengthens our cases massively.

[car2403]

I'm being absolutely serious. If they have failed to include the relevent documentation with their POC (Particulars of Claim) then it's a perfectly valid response. I have used it successfully on a number of occasions

 

Oh, I know you're right, but I think it's dangerous to Defend on an "you haven't included enough info in your POC" basis - this is exactly what I could have done with HFC Bank, as their POC was basically "an agreement has been broken and we seek enforcement". In response to that, I've submitted an 11-page Defence covering my dispute with them. (the Court claim was retaliation for the dispute) I could argue "insufficient POC", but I didn't want to rely on a Judge seeing it that way and disallowing further Defence submissions because the time to submit had past.

 

This is a conflict in CPR - one rule says they have to show a good basis for bringing the claim and you can justifiably request the claim is struck out if they don't and another rule saying you can only submit a Defence at a certain stage or risk having Judgment by Default made against you.

 

Far better to cover all bases, IMO, as it's risky hoping the Judge will see it your way.

 

All I'm saying here is that Gaz needs more specific advice about his case, without which he can't make a decision as to how to proceed.

[reallymadwoman]

Hear, hear.

 

Cover all bases.

 

At the very least it lets the opposition know you are serious about defending.

[Slartibartfast]

Phew! Just finished reading from the start of this thread. I don't know if I know now more than I knew when I started. Any how hats off and elbows up to those that have worked so much to take the exploration thus far.

 

My thread is here if perhaps peterbard (or indeed anyone) could spare a mo. There was a point I picked up on some pages back about advirtising on the agreeement documemt being a 'no-no'? Is this refered to in Regs somewhere? - need to go through these next I think. My application form/agreement has a free mobile phone offer on the back, says PTO for application.

 

Also I've seen few references to S85 in recent posts in this thread - did this bear any fruit in anyones claims?

[JonCris]

Oh, I know you're right, but I think it's dangerous to Defend on an "you haven't included enough info in your POC" basis - this is exactly what I could have done with HFC Bank, as their POC was basically "an agreement has been broken and we seek enforcement". In response to that, I've submitted an 11-page Defence covering my dispute with them. (the Court claim was retaliation for the dispute) I could argue "insufficient POC", but I didn't want to rely on a Judge seeing it that way and disallowing further Defence submissions because the time to submit had past.

 

This is a conflict in CPR - one rule says they have to show a good basis for bringing the claim and you can justifiably request the claim is struck out if they don't and another rule saying you can only submit a Defence at a certain stage or risk having Judgment by Default made against you.

 

Far better to cover all bases, IMO, as it's risky hoping the Judge will see it your way.

 

All I'm saying here is that Gaz needs more specific advice about his case, without which he can't make a decision as to how to proceed.

 

I'm sorry you don't understand but it is a fact that if they have not submitted a detailed claim then you can argue, successfully, that you can't plead until they do.

 

The court cannot insist you plead against an non-particularized claim & the fact that you didn't use this argument means the court had no reason not to let your matter go forward.

 

The OP can only submit a detailed defence after the claimant has provided full documented details of their claim

[car2403]

I'm not saying I don't understand your point, JonCris - I even acknowledge it was a good one - all I'm saying is it is a lottery whether the Judge will know his A from his E and apply CPR correctly.

 

Actually, in my claim with HFC Bank, I've qualified what I've submitted with this;

 

The Particulars of Claim are summary in nature and do not disclose sufficient grounds for bringing any action. Despite this, the Defendant pleads as follows, but seeks to reserve the right to amend this Defence in such circumstances that the Claimant provides more detailed particulars at a future point in these proceedings;

 

And on it goes.

 

Actually, you've got me thinking on this case now - I can apply an Application Notice to have the Claimant's claim struck out because it isn't particularised properly and shows no chose of action in law and ask the Court to continue on a Counterclaim basis only. In fact, they've also only submitted a simple denial of my Counterclam, without offering details or authority for why they deny, so I may be able to get their claim against me and their Defence against my Counterclaim struck out!

 

What I've done, in effect though, is to allow the Court to continue with the case as it stands despite the POC being insufficient if the Judge disagrees with my Application Notice - and in managing my Defence/Counter in this way, I won't be panicking to submit a full Defence quickly, as I've already done it.

 

The problem here is that Gaz wouldn't have known any of this (I'm assuming, as he may be a qualified Lawyer) but I just wanted to make sure he is aware of all the options available to him and then he can make a decision as to how to progress his claim.

 

I think we're both on the same page as to what should happen, JonCris, but I would argue you should always offer that important "in the alternative" statement in case the Judge doesn't see it your way.

 

It's conversations like this that make you think laterally about cases like this though, so thanks for getting me thinking about mine as I was happy to go to trial over this - but that may not be necessary if I play my cards right now.

[gaz2006]

Hi Paul & Everyone I have posted my own thread on http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/122545-help-wit-court-clainm.html however dont know if youll read it unless you go there thanks for help was worried when got summons feel a little better now if people can guide me in right direction . As I said I asked for copy of agremement after sending my £1 cheque received nothing 12 days went and 30 so I wrote saying Lloyds in default and had committed offence still received nothing . Then letters froOm solictors came i repeated same to them they ignored except once said statements showed my liability .....anyway their poc is as follows

"1 By an agreemnet in writing and regulated by the CCA Act 1974 ,The Claimants issue to the defendent a Lloyds TSB Platinum Card , for the purrpose of the Defendent acquiring goods and services on credit .

2 Clause 7 of the agreement provided that the claimants woudl furnish the defendent with a monthly statemnt showing the balance currently due , the minimum payment to be made and the date for payment . If the balance was not paid then provided the defendent made the minimum payment on or before such date the remainder of the balance would remain outstanding and the defendent should pay interest upon it per month in accordacne with claiuses 5 6 and 9 of the agreemnet .

3 In breaching the agreement the defendent failed to make payment and on 22 12 06 the claimants issued a deafault notice pursuant to section 87 (1( of the CCA Act 1974

4 On 12 4 07 the Claimants did issue formal demand to the defendent

5 The claimants therefore claim the balance due under the agreement of £*****

I havent as yet acknowledged service of the summons defence needs to be there in 28 days

From my limited knowledge I have the following questions

As Lloyds havent supplied agrement asked for under cca act they have defaulted and have committed an offence and so it is unenforceable debt ... so solicitors going to court is contray to this isnt it ...... however I do knwo i fthey produce teh agreement then it is enforceable if drawn executed correctly etc so maybe this could be struck out as tehy ahvent produced teh agreement in the first place and tehy woudl then have to go throug process again .

About £600 i smade up of penalty charges etc which I havent claim yet reason is im too damn busy with other claims being stayed etc and trying to get them lifted my fault ....

As default notice includes some penalty illegal charges then the default notice is not valid and should be removed shouldnt it

Never had to be recollection a formal demand

What about the solicitors ignoring my faxed letters I do have copies and fax receipts .

Anyway would like any advice as how to react to summons what should I do ie write letter to solicitors what do I put on reply to summons etc and away to war with Lloyds and their solicitors . Needless to say if I am liable for this debt I havent the money to pay I have over £25000 worth of claims put in or to do go in if I HAD PAYMENT ON ALL MY FINANCES WOUDL BE A LOT BETTER THAN THEY ARE

I look forward to the ideas and strategy you all may help me with

regards Gaz

[caro]

car2403 I am posting on your thread to keep all the info on your case there. I find it very hard to follow with posts on the issue in different places. For others who would care to follow progress, there's a link here.http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/110146-car2403-hfc-bank-default-6.html

[JonCris]

car I understand what your saying & to a point I agree. However if you submit my argument then the judge must return to the other side before proceeding then if they do submit an amended claim you can submit a detailed defence.

 

My point is that it brings their action to a stop until they amend their claim accordingly in which case they should supply an enforceable agreement as part of it & if they don't you can make a part 18 request.

 

Of course all of this is based on the assumption that they haven't already particularized their claim at the outset

[caro]

Different words but the point I'm trying to make (but not so well) on car2403's thread JC.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/110146-car2403-hfc-bank-default-6.html#post1267150

[JonCris]

Hi Caro

 

Long time no see (or argue). As you know I'm a computer dummy so could you give me a link to cars thread

[caro]

Hi JC, and I'm not arguing with you in this case, although I see you found the 2 links I'd already provided now.

 

I respect your knowledge and am glad to see you here contributing.

[loz]

I hope I haven't missed something glaringly obvious but this thread is a bit on the large side when searching for something specific...

 

I was getting a little grief off HSBC over a missed payment or two on my credit card (due in turn to my ongoing argument with Alliance + Leicester), so out of curiosity more than anything I asked for a copy of the original agreement. This card was a case of them sending me a "pre-approved" application form/agreement which I just had to sign and I would get the card. What I've received looks to have the prescribed terms but has not been signed by anyone from HSBC - instead there is a date stamp.

 

I reckon that without a proper signature from HSBC this agreement has not been executed, is this correct? If so, what options do I have?

 

Thanks in advance,

Loz