Cap1 & CCA return

[elizabeth1]

UN1BOY - thanks for that - seems these DCA's really do rely on anyone normally not defending their court claims?

 

I am watching one bunch do this and they seem to "cherry pick" who they pick on as "homeowners" who will usually do a quick loan to pay their debts off as they don't want a CCJ against them (but they've built up a little collateral in house cause houses went up in valiue etc..)

 

The sight ot the court claim is enough to scare most into paying something off ?? Mmmm!!! horrible isn't it?

 

I realised the answers were simple - but sometimes the answers seems so simple they have to be wrong?? ha ha

 

the DCA's really are a rotten shower of people aren't they?

[elsinore]

the DCA's really are a rotten shower of people aren't they?

 

Not the words I would have chosen to use, Elizabeth, but beautifully put!

 

Elsinore

[un1boy]

UN1BOY - thanks for that - seems these DCA's really do rely on anyone normally not defending their court claims?

 

I am watching one bunch do this and they seem to "cherry pick" who they pick on as "homeowners" who will usually do a quick loan to pay their debts off as they don't want a CCJ against them (but they've built up a little collateral in house cause houses went up in valiue etc..)

 

The sight ot the court claim is enough to scare most into paying something off ?? Mmmm!!! horrible isn't it?

 

I realised the answers were simple - but sometimes the answers seems so simple they have to be wrong?? ha ha

 

the DCA's really are a rotten shower of people aren't they?

 

No problems, bear in mind this is only my interpretation - I have no experianec of these things (yet) but I know many people that have.

 

Plus, a county court isn't as daunting as it seems - you call the Judge Sir and he actually helps and tells the defendant's solicitors to not say things if they do out of turn. They know that you have no experience.

[un1boy]

Not the words I would have chosen to use, Elizabeth, but beautifully put!

 

Elsinore

 

I agree!

[Peterbard]

Also, does a credit card agreement have to be signed. just applied for an MBNA card online and they sent the card without my signing any agreement. Would the debt stil be enforceable. The card has arrived and has been used.

 

The CCa 2004 Electronic agreements regulations works under section 7 of the the 2000 electronic comunications act which states "

Section 7 of the Electronic Communications Act makes provision for electronic signatures and related certificates. It provides that in any legal proceedings, an electronic signature incorporated into or logically associated with a particular electronic communication shall be admissible in evidence in relation to any question as to the authenticity or integrity of the communication.

and modifiaes the 1974 act in order to enable on line execution of agreements.

This came into force in December 2004 and adapts the pre contractual sections of the act(sections 60etc)to evable the agreement to be made by electronic means.

 

Asfar as the sigature goes

"Reg 6(5), as inserted by the Order, provides that where an agreement is intended to be concluded by the use of electronic communication, the creditor or owner may include (as part of the signature box) information about the process or means of providing, communicating or verifying the signature to be made by the debtor or hirer.

Such wording may not however be included if the agreement is not intended to be concluded electronically. "

 

Regs Peter

[un1boy]

OMG, I didn't think that came in to force until April?

 

That is scandalous? So basically, if you apply for a credit card online with an online only provider then "a tick in a box" can be used as evidence of your particular signature?

 

What a field day for hackers and id theives!!

[Peterbard]

HI Uni

 

Yes Uni

I looked it up some time ago whin i was questioning a purchase made by my daughter online.

Any enforcement defaults or terminations of contract still have to be done by post however.

 

Peter

[maybelline]

I am also searching around re supplyying copy of agreement but I have seen a thread (cca and tme limit) with info stating that copies dont have to have a signature box etc, so now I am confused again?

 

also - I have a reply from a CCA request, stating 'a copy agreement cannot be provided. we have therefore closed this account due to the information being unavailable. please note this will not be removed from your file and may prevent you from obtaining credit in the future.' my query is regarding continuing to process information for a debt that effectively does not exist? I know there are some threads that have gone into this query but I cant remember where.

[un1boy]

To satisfy a section 77-79 request, the lender can provide a copy of your agreement but omit certain info like the signature boxes. It must however be a copy of YOUR original agreement and not a template.

 

In terms of processing your data - if there is no agreement then there is no debt and the agreement cannot be enforced - including its terms and conditions.

 

It is its terms and conditions that give the lender that "right" to process your details to third parites IE CRA's. Therefore I would suggest writing back to them and requesting your details being removed as you are reporting them to Trading Standards.

[Guest The Terminator]

I am also searching around re supplyying copy of agreement but I have seen a thread (cca and tme limit) with info stating that copies dont have to have a signature box etc, so now I am confused again?

 

also - I have a reply from a CCA request, stating 'a copy agreement cannot be provided. we have therefore closed this account due to the information being unavailable. please note this will not be removed from your file and may prevent you from obtaining credit in the future.' my query is regarding continuing to process information for a debt that effectively does not exist? I know there are some threads that have gone into this query but I cant remember where.

 

Then not only have they declined your request but they have also committed a criminal offence.

[maybelline]

thanks, will write asap. on another CCA request I have received a copy of an agreement that replace a previous agreement but contains figures from that previous agreemet that I would like to challenge i.e. penalty charges, fees etc, how do I get a copy of the previous agreement or have they covered it by supplying the superceding document?

[Peterbard]

Originally Posted by maybelline

I am also searching around re supplyying copy of agreement but I have seen a thread (cca and tme limit) with info stating that copies dont have to have a signature box etc, so now I am confused again?

 

also - I have a reply from a CCA request, stating 'a copy agreement cannot be provided. we have therefore closed this account due to the information being unavailable. please note this will not be removed from your file and may prevent you from obtaining credit in the future.' my query is regarding continuing to process information for a debt that effectively does not exist? I know there are some threads that have gone into this query but I cant remember where.

You know this makes my blood boil. Instead of just holding their hands up and saying we have lost the agreement they have to try and get at you some other way.

I would write back a very strongly worded letter threatening them with reporting them to the OFT getting their credit liscence revoked Contravening the Administration of justice act. and then if they have put placed a remark on your credit report sue for deformation of charector and non conformance with the DPA. Ba*****s

Peter

[Peterbard]

thanks, will write asap. on another CCA request I have received a copy of an agreement that replace a previous agreement but contains figures from that previous agreemet that I would like to challenge i.e. penalty charges, fees etc, how do I get a copy of the previous agreement or have they covered it by supplying the superceding document?

NO They deffinately havn't they have to supply a true copy of the orriginal agrement. The one you signed, since they have already sent you a bogus copy you are in an ideal situation to write back and say that this is not a true copy of the agrment and in the circumstances the only copy i am willing to accept is a copy of the executed agreement including the signatures.

 

Peter

[zubo]

Apologies all for the cross-post, but these questions seem relevent here too and I would appreciate any comment:

 

 

I have issues with the CCA route:

i) surely Amex will have a copy

ii) even if they haven't - won't they goto court to prove the debt

iii) arguments will run along the lines of - do you dispute you used the card fot these purchases?

iv) can the court enforce the debt if proven, if no agreement is produced?

 

i would love to reclaim money i have paid - since one payment was a balance transfer which cleared the account at end of 2005

[tamadus]

Apologies all for the cross-post, but these questions seem relevent here too and I would appreciate any comment:

 

 

I have issues with the CCA route:

i) surely Amex will have a copy

ii) even if they haven't - won't they goto court to prove the debt

iii) arguments will run along the lines of - do you dispute you used the card fot these purchases?

iv) can the court enforce the debt if proven, if no agreement is produced?

 

i would love to reclaim money i have paid - since one payment was a balance transfer which cleared the account at end of 2005

 

To answer your questions.

1. It's very likely that Amex will have a copy of the executed agreement, in which case no harm is done and you now have a copy as well.

2. If they haven't then they will have to go to court and ask a judge to enforce something that doesn't exist, I dont think thats a very good idea as the Judge is more likely to throw them out of the door.

3. Does it really matter if the card was used ? if the agreement is unenforceable then they cannot add charges to it and only the capital amount needs to be repayed.

4. I dont see how a court can enforce a none existant agreement.

 

Please note we are not disputing if any repayment obligation exists, only their legal status to enforce repayment of charges and interest.

[maybelline]

thanks Peter, the photocopy of the superceding document does have a signature, it is one side only and shows all the figure bfwd from three previous agreements, the first was HP on the car I tried to return unsuccessfully, the latter secured on my home, I am treading carefully becuase of this fact. it is the copies of the previous agreements and this one, where they have the front sheet form filled out by themselves (no signatures etc) I do have a printout of all my payments. also they have my bank account details and security code on paper. I am guessing your previous answer stands.

[maybelline]

un1boy, hello, does it make a difference where an agreement is signed? at home or at their office. what if I signed a form that now has an insurance figure on it that I specifically said I did not want at the time. things were so terirble for me around then I didnt look twice and I felt I was losing my home once fallen behind so just wanted to sort it asap (I am the first to say how foolish it seems lookiing back and I would never do that now but I was in a whole different scenario and now I have to deal with the fallout) whinge over:)

[un1boy]

Hi Maybelline,

 

It makes no difference where the form was signed but it has to have your sig and their sig on it to be enforcable, and it needs to be dated and you need to have been supplied with the terms and conditions that were relevant at the time.

[joneshousehold]

Hi all. I have just posted a question in a separate thread about CCA & DPA. I don't want to clog this thread up so I kept it separate but I know some of the keenest minds look at and contribute to this thread so I would be very grateful for any advice

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/58890-cca-request-data-protection.html

[Peterbard]

 

thanks Peter, the photocopy of the superceding document does have a signature, it is one side only and shows all the figure bfwd from three previous agreements, the first was HP on the car I tried to return unsuccessfully, the latter secured on my home, I am treading carefully becuase of this fact. it is the copies of the previous agreements and this one, where they have the front sheet form filled out by themselves (no signatures etc) I do have a printout of all my payments. also they have my bank account details and security code on paper. I am guessing your previous answer stands

 

A copy of an updated agreement is not good enough you want a copy of the orriginal copy with all the orriginal terms and conditions on it that you agreed to when you took out your loan.

If the agrement they have sent you is a true copy of the consolidation loan taken to settle the earlier accounts then they have fullfilled thei commitment according to the act.

Where the earlier agrements with the same company?

 

If you want to pm me I am happy to help all i can

 

Peter

 

[Peterbard]

un1boy, hello, does it make a difference where an agreement is signed? at home or at their office. what if I signed a form that now has an insurance figure on it that I specifically said I did not want at the time. things were so terirble for me around then I didnt look twice and I felt I was losing my home once fallen behind so just wanted to sort it asap (I am the first to say how foolish it seems lookiing back and I would never do that now but I was in a whole different scenario and now I have to deal with the fallout) whinge over:-)

__________________

Hi Again

 

Just adding to Uniboys comments#

If you tookan insunce policy you would have had to sign for this also so you could also aply for a copy of that agreement.

In addition the only difference in signing on the traders premises is that under section 67 it removes your rights regarding cooling off periods.

 

Regs

Peter

[maybelline]

yes, it is the same firm, starting with the car finance and so on.

[un1boy]

In addition the only difference in signing on the traders premises is that under section 67 it removes your rights regarding cooling off periods.

 

That's crazy -what's the point of that?

 

So if you sign a credit acard agreement in the bank branch you don't get a cooling off period?

[Peterbard]

That's crazy -what's the point of that?

The law is an ass U.

 

Thats why you must never let one of those holiday home/timeshare people get you in their premises to sign an agreement and why they go to such great pains to get you there.

 

Regs

Peter

[Smoothy]

That's crazy -what's the point of that?

 

So if you sign a credit acard agreement in the bank branch you don't get a cooling off period?

 

And if thats the case, what about high pressure car sales such as the former 'Yes Car Credit' where you were bombarded with their sales pitch untill you signed. A lot of people have been pressurized into signing an agreement. Does this mean they have no cooling off period?

It did when I asked about it!!

 

Smoothy