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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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Cap1 & CCA return


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Thanks Peter. Sorry for asking so many questions on this. When they provide the the S.A.R this will detail all letters, phone calls etc?

 

Would it not be up to them to prove that they did supply me with a copy 7 days before signing as opposed to me proving that I did not get a copy before signing?

 

Thanks

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Hi, if an additional loan amount is borrowed and the amount includes settlement of the exisiting loan amount still outstanding, should the credit agreement show the details relating to the settlement part of the loan, e.g., if you are borrowing a total amount of £10,000, clearing the existing loan of say £8,000, with an actaul advance of £2,000, should there be a full break down to show this. Or, is it acceptable for a loan agreement to state amount of loan, i.e., £10,000, interest for example, £2053 and total amount payable figure only, with no actual details of the settlement and would this make the agreement unenforceable. Many thanks, Magda

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Did this argument ever get settled/proven?

Is section 85 reference to replacement cards and new agreements enough to render an agreement unenforceable????

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'I believe the struggle for financial freedom is unfair - I believe the only ones who disagree are millionaires!'

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Hi,

 

Good question Magda. I would love to know the answer to this one also. Also, can anyone advise if you get a copy of your CCA when you do a SAR or do you have to put this in a different request?

 

Thanks

 

Hi Pudsey, I think you should get a copy of your CCA when you do a SAR, as they should send everything that they have relating to the account, including letters, telephone calls, etc. Most people tend to do the CCA request first as the SAR costs £10, which if you have a lot of creditors, works out to be pretty expensive doesn't it. Magda

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You really want to make sure that you specifically request it though (ie - any and all original contracts, including any historic terms relating to said contracts) otherwise they may well choose not to include it.

 

I've started SAR'ing first now, as you end up having to do it anyway for the most part. My thinking is that if you ask for the agreement within an SAR it's not so likely to raise too many red flags - after all, usually the SAR is used for getting charges back, so they are more likely to assume that's what you're up to. As such, you're more likely (in my mind anyway) to be sent what they actually have for an agreement.

 

My issue with doing it the other way around is that if they are so inclined, they are more likely/able to doctor an agreement for a CCA. If you ask for this first, you may find you just get a copy of the same dodgy thing for your SAR, which is what I think has happened with MBNA. It looks like they've pasted on terms, but copied the same thing for the SAR (very big no-no if they have, but I'd have to prove it).

 

So, I've requested the agreement within a load of other stuff in an SAR. I'll give them until the end of the 40 days, or when it arrives, then CCA them if what I have doesn't have prescribed terms or a sig. If one then turns up that is different to the SAR they're in a bit of a pickle.

 

Well that's how I'm hoping it'll work anyway!

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Did this argument ever get settled/proven?

Is section 85 reference to replacement cards and new agreements enough to render an agreement unenforceable????

 

Even though s85 specifically states that a new CCA is required every time a new card is issued, I cannot ever remember seeing one. Unless the usual cardboard/paper folder they come in counts.

 

If not I can't imagine there is a card agreement out there that IS enforceable !!:shock:

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creditor=lender - I'm a bit confused by teh question. But, no, no-one has to give a copy of an agreement 7 days before signing.

 

Under the CCA 1974, if a request for a copy of the agreement, etc, is not complied with within the statutory period (12 days), then the creditor is in default and "he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement". For fixed-sum loans it is in s77(4) and for rolling-credit accounts, it is s78(6).

 

In both of those sections, it also says that, if the default continues for a month, the creditor commits an offence. However, this only applies to agreements signed before January 2007 when the Consumer Credit Act 2006 came in to force which repealed that provision.

 

Steven, what offence has been committed? I thought the offence part was dropped in May 08 with new legislation... (this is what I was advised by trading standards who are investigating my complaint re not receiving cca)

This is the problem I am going round and round with.. if the creditor THINKS he has complied with sec 77/78 in sending what he BELIEVES is a true copy (even though its tutt and sometimes just t & c's, not even from when acc was opened) then the creditor will not accept that the account is in their eyes in DISPUTE. If you then want to get your credit file sorted out the cra will not change the entry without say so of the creditor who are prob in cahoots with them anywayz, infact as experienced cagger did whole sticky on defaults and how to get them removed, he stated that one was owned by a well known creditor. Anyway it seems to me that the only way to really get a bad mark on your file taken off is to go to court and hope you win with getting the default removed.

The best I managed was to place a notice of correction on my file for the moment.. I am exactly in this frustrating position and am complaining to fos for all it will do. Saw there had been a good letter re this a while back by Car who appears to be very knowledgeable on this area.

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Possible alternative angle where the Agreement, Default Notice and Termination are all OK?

 

Under section 85 of the CCA, the creditor has to send out a copy of the executed agreement and associated terms and conditions upon the issue of a new credit token or they go into default until this is rectified.

 

Assuming they did not rectify it, they then go ahead some months later to issue a default notice and terminate the account, issue court papers etc.

Assuming the DN issued was a valid one (correct in every detail and 14 clear days allowed) and they have terminated the account, this would have been done whilst the account was still in default as per the section 85 breach.

 

This would constitute an unlawful rescission of contract? And as it had been terminated whilst in default, could only be reinstated by agreement of both parties.

 

Even if they had an enforceable agreement in the first place, but did not sent a copy out with the issue of the replacement credit card.

 

If the agreement was an on-line agreement, I put the argument forward that it would be easy to prove the fact whether the agreement was sent with the card re issue to satisfy section 85, as the security systems in place to protect the integrity of the data would have shown an access to the data and print out of the agreement to send with the card.

 

If the creditor uses the argument that the agreement was sent but could not prove any record of it, we could challenge the whole point of the online process being flawed as to it’s integrity, and then how could they prove the tick in the box was indeed who’s they say it is.

 

Just some thoughts but Can anyone build upon or comment on this.

I'm not a legal expert. Any help or advice I offer is based upon experience gained from this fantastic forum.

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Before I go to bed, I remember reading somewhere in here or the various versions of the CCA and OFT documents...

 

...that in the prescribed terms, where an APR is to vary in the first 3 years of the agreement, then the highest APR should then be shown.

 

If I'm correct, say you took out a Balance transfer for 0% for say 9 Months, then you would go onto say 15.9% (where 15.9% would be the APR in the terms) What about if before the first 3 years were up, the Creditor put you on say 34.9% (as certain companies do as we all know!)

 

Surely the 34.9% should have been in the original prescribed terms. I would say this would be very important, as who would have taken the card out knowing this!!

 

This would make the prescribed terms incorrect and possibly render the whole agreement unenforceable??

 

Please somebody check this, my mind has been working overtime and may have burn't out:|

I'm not a legal expert. Any help or advice I offer is based upon experience gained from this fantastic forum.

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Even though s85 specifically states that a new CCA is required every time a new card is issued, I cannot ever remember seeing one. Unless the usual cardboard/paper folder they come in counts.

 

If not I can't imagine there is a card agreement out there that IS enforceable !!:shock:

 

It does state that and the debt is unenforceable if they didn't comply until they do. There are plenty of threads around (admittedly older than most, as already pointed out before) showing this process in action.

 

The issue is that creditors don't take this obligation seriously and consumers don't know their rights, so can't look out for themselves. In comes CAG to educate all - creditors included... :p

 

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Clarification on Invalid Default notices

 

I have several default notices all invalid in different ways.

 

What I need to know is where does the creditor stand legally with an invalid default notice and what position of strength do I have.

 

I haven't come across a thread that goes through this in detail - if there is one can somebody point me to it please.

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There's an awful lot of information to assimilate and cross reference as a result of this thread.

 

Maybe we could do with some sort of sticky that lays out all of the salient points relating to agreements and CCA requests, etc? Or maybe there is one already?

 

Any thoughts?

I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own. Number 6

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Clarification on Invalid Default notices

 

I have several default notices all invalid in different ways.

 

What I need to know is where does the creditor stand legally with an invalid default notice and what position of strength do I have.

 

I haven't come across a thread that goes through this in detail - if there is one can somebody point me to it please.

 

Have you read x20's thread - The tale of a dodgy DN?

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I got three defaults removed just by persistance and making a nuisance of myself the last one from MBNA has took 3years of arguing.I feel you are very much on your own and are usually refered to ICO who i feel wont answer your questions directly even if you know your right ICO wont agree.

MBNA £250 bank charges refunded.:lol:

MBNA claimed £2700 in PPI:lol:

MBNA default removed.

WESCOT balance written off no cca.

WESCOT default removed.

TIME RETAIL.default removed.

LLOYDS TSB.£150 charges refunded

MINT £220 charges refunded.

currently 4 in dispute unenforcible agreements.

HFOS ordered to remove default

YORKSHIRE paid token £200 PPI going now for full £600

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Steven, what offence has been committed? I thought the offence part was dropped in May 08 with new legislation
... (this is what I was advised by trading standards who are investigating my complaint re not receiving cca)

This is the problem I am going round and round with.. if the creditor THINKS he has complied with sec 77/78 in sending what he BELIEVES is a true copy (even though its tutt and sometimes just t & c's, not even from when acc was opened) then the creditor will not accept that the account is in their eyes in DISPUTE. If you then want to get your credit file sorted out the cra will not change the entry without say so of the creditor who are prob in cahoots with them anywayz, infact as experienced cagger did whole sticky on defaults and how to get them removed, he stated that one was owned by a well known creditor. Anyway it seems to me that the only way to really get a bad mark on your file taken off is to go to court and hope you win with getting the default removed.

The best I managed was to place a notice of correction on my file for the moment.. I am exactly in this frustrating position and am complaining to fos for all it will do. Saw there had been a good letter re this a while back by Car who appears to be very knowledgeable on this area.

 

 

Hi see my earlier post 14359

Edited by Dodgeball

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Clarification on Invalid Default notices

 

I have several default notices all invalid in different ways.

 

What I need to know is where does the creditor stand legally with an invalid default notice and what position of strength do I have.

 

I haven't come across a thread that goes through this in detail - if there is one can somebody point me to it please.

 

 

Hi

 

Bassicaly the act says that a default notice is required to be given in the prescribed form in a prescribeed period(14 says i think now)before any further action can be taken.

 

I have used the noe isuance of a valid notice in the past in order to get judgements set asside and i know many on here that have used this to great effect.

 

 

Regards

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Peterbard is online. I am sure that he will have some helpful advice for us??

 

Hi Pudsey, I'm sure they must need to show the details of the previous loan settlement which is then incorporated into the new loan, otherwise how could you possibly agree with the figure they have put foward. Will try to find out a bit more about this and let you know if I find anything definite out. Magda

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Errm, wouldn't the application form also need to contain all the prescribed terms to be enforceable, not just the debtor's signature?

with the debtors signature a court could enforce

without the debtors signature a court could not enforce

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