Atos They are unbelievable

[ErikaPNP]

Nursing and Midwifery Council, Nystagmite.

 

Sadly, I'm not in the least bit surprised about this, the ESA system has been the source of stress to claimants since and a waste of public funds since it began. There have been many campaigns and reviews which resulted in it being famously declared 'unfit for purpose', but to date it is still on the go and IB migrations have commenced. One of its main designs was to weed out those who abused its predecessor IB, but like many reforms designed to do this, it has resulted in far too many genuine claimants being put through the wringer. It's a ridiculous system and frankly I wish it had never started. I've never claimed ESA but have supported many people through the process and if I am sick of it, goodness only knows how those claimants who are at the centre of it feel.

 

Read everything that you can lay your hands on, fill your submission with as much supporting evidence as you can and go sort 'em out! We're all here with you - any questions fire on, there are plenty members here who can answer.

[coledog]

Thanks again everyone for your support, we went to see the GP tonight and have support from him. Mr Dog also sees 4 Consultants, all of whom, I am sure will be glad to have a pop at this system. In fact he was told by the Jobcentre at the beginning of this year to claim ESA and his benefit is contribution based so IMO he is entitled to it, not that anyone else in need is not

[Gbarbm]

Glad all the docs are on your side.....stick that in your pipe and smoke it atos!

[coledog]

I have gone through the descriptors and he should have 30 to 40 points, not even getting top whack on some, this was on the original form. She did not carry out any tests or properly take into account anything she was told or saw

[ianheadland]

Coledog..my heart goes out to you and your husband. You must absolutely appeal this awful decision. You ARE allowed to ask the DWP office for a copy of the ATOS report. I was bale to get mine in just two days and even though I was placed into the Support Group for ESA, I was still amazed by what had been written, what was left ouit AND certain assumptions that had been made.

Do also try to contact your own local DIAL networl...this is the Disability Alliance group. I was able to talk to a very helpful chap in my area office and he offered to attend my ATOS appointment with me. Just him being there made such a difference to me and that was noted on my ATOS report.

The very best of wishes with your appeal. Do let us all know how you get on. (I have had to submit my ATOS questionairre again and it went in at the beginning of September. Tomorrow is October 1st and as yet I have heard nothing. I hope the medical evidence that i sent plus my submissions to the questions have meant I do not have to attend an ATOS appointment again this time. I could well do without it).

[caledfwlch]

I have gone through the descriptors and he should have 30 to 40 points, not even getting top whack on some, this was on the original form. She did not carry out any tests or properly take into account anything she was told or saw

 

As another poster said, also make putting in a proper official complaint about the nurse to the Nursing Register, and follow it up.

 

I know a couple of nurses with agencies, and they have turned down ATOS work, and know that many are quitting ATOS, or turning down job offers too, because ATOS's way of working leaves them in major risk of being disbarred, and thus being unable to ever work as a nurse again.

 

So complaining when it is a Nurse or registered Doctor helps put even more pressure on them to leave or not start in the first place. And the nurse from your husband's assessment is quite clearly not fit to practice, and other patients need protecting from her.

[MrHistory]

Sorry to hear about this coledog, If it helps i told atos how mny points they will be giving me and this is how,

 

I wrote to my doctor and told him that had to have a atos medical i then listed the descriptors that affected me like this,

 

1 Cannot get to any specified place with which the claimant is, or would be, familiar

Score 15 points

 

2 Normal activities, for example, visiting new places or engaging in social contact, are precluded because of overwhelming fear or anxiety

Score 15 points

 

added a few more and asked atos for a fax number doctor agreed with the above and wrote a letter to say so and faxed my letter and his to atos and cc'd it all to me,

 

I needed a home visit and when atos doctor arrived i had the letter the doctor wrote as well as the one i wrote on the table atos doctor saw letter and said don't worry i have seen it and i am just here to fill a few things in asked me a couple of questions as good as said i've passed and left,

 

I called the DWP today to see how things are going to be told i've passed the medical but was unable to tell me yet what group i was in but hinted it was the support group,

 

I think what helps was that atos would look a bit stupid by not agreeing and me going to appeal and then showing my letter my doctors letter who knows me better than atos,

 

To be honest the atos doctor hinted that they were only here because i asked for a home visit and the letter from me and my doctor was more than enough,

 

Wishing coledog and partner all the best.

 

MrH

[coledog]

Thanks again to everyone. Will go through this thread and detail and write some serious letters. In fact, I have been ringing and ringing DWP since the medical in August to chase it and they kept telling me that 'it was with the Decision Maker, they had a backlog and I would have to wait'. It was only last week that someone actually phoned me back and became very 'helpful' ( I had to threaten a complaint as well). She chased it with the Decision Maker and rang me back, her take was that DWP thought that it was a complex case and the medical assessment was 'harsh' although they had to abide by it BUT she sent me the report and the appeal stuff by Ist class post herself and told me to appeal. She did not put her name on any of this and told me that if I put the appeal in straight away, the benefit would still be paid until the Tribunal. Welfare Rights sent the appeal on Tuesday but the official 'letter' did not arrive until yesterday. So we have the report and the appeal is in.

 

I think that some people in DWP know that this is wrong, and are probably as sick of this as we are! Many people do not even find out about the decision until their benefit it stopped and they are probably the most vulnerable. Fecking disgrace

[count orlok]

Not that I'm being cynical or anything. I understand they're starting on DLA next, wonder what'll be after that? I think they should be doing something about all those lazy old people doing nothing to contribute to society taking up all the seats on the buses and getting benefits paid to them each and every week. The fact that they are increasing in numbers just proves that they have identified this as an easy life, after all we know people started getting ill and claiming IB because it was a more generous benefit than JSA. Think about it, the only reason people grow old is because they know a couple over 60 gets nearly twice as much as in their 50s. Bet they wouldn't if the benefits were frozen at the under 60 rate.

[coledog]

Well - they are doing their best by raising the retirement age! It will be 80 before long

[count orlok]

yea its 61 now for pension credits, it'll be 62 soon and I doubt they'll stop at 66

[coledog]

Morning all

 

I am bumping this as the appeal is in a week and a half's time and we seemed to have been 'dumped' by Welfare Rights who in fact have been less than helpful all the way through. They are now saying that their involvement seems to be going against the clients chances so it looks like we are on our own.

 

I have not yet submitted any supporting evidence to DWP or the Tribunal and need to do this in the next few days as they have asked for these 7 days before the hearing. I have myself obtained three letters supporting the appeal from the GP and two consultants and also have copies of letters sent to us after husband's hospital appointments etc. Do I just take these in or do I need to submit anything else?

 

I understand that the tribunal will ask my husband questions again about his health and daily activities, which he is not happy about and is very stressed

 

Any help would be appreciated as I am struggling a bit here

[honeybee13]

Hello there. It's shame about Welfare Rights, but I won with just my OH to help. Have you read the forum sticky and template document for the tribunal panel?

 

My best, HB

[coledog]

Yes - do I need to complete one of these documents and send it? I did a draft one after the assessment which I sent to Welfare rights.

 

Need to know exactly what to submit in the next few days then we can think about the hearing

[Sura]

All the best to you and he, that's just really shocking to hear.

[queensclose]

once you have a copy of the report. you will see how they trick people. i,ve always said this accessment should be sound recorded. most accessors will allow you to record it. i think you,ll be one of the 75% have their appeal upheld.

it it get worse when atos start doing their face to face interviews for everyone on disability living allowance. properaly bring this site to a standstill.

 

i had one for industrial industries benefit. i scored 5 points. what to appeal. the doctor told the dwp rep. this shouldn't have even gone to appeal and allows me 20 points for 3 yrs then a review because it was degenative. 3 yrs later atos re-awarded me 5 points. went to appeal again and and due to an error on my side i forgot to turn up and was awarded 30 points for life in my absence

 

my report was written by mickey mouse. all important points that he was told was not included or worded different. he asked about family shopping. i replied i take my wife shopping to the supermarket on thursdays and i wait in the car unless they have the store wheel chair available.

 

he wrote. does a family shop once a week with wife. sometimes waits in the car otherwise helps with shopping.

[osdset]

One way to sort all this out would be to appoint an independent scrutineer someone who has no vested interest either way to be present at every assessment, to monitor what happens and to record what is said. Unlikely to happen unfortunately.

[Sura]

Such a person would need to be paid -

Question - by whom?

ATOS - leads to vested interest,

Claimant - inpractical, unethical and leaads to vested interest.

Goverment - the same people who pay ATOS for their contract, it would be a waste, not to mention their cutting of services, they likely can't spare the funds.

 

Such a person would need medical qualifications to make sure they understood what was going on.

This point is debatable, of course.

 

As a jobholder paying tax, they are likely to have a vested interest anyway.

 

I do not think that taking a relative or rep or asking for another ATOS official in the room is completely fair, either, as both are likely to take the side of those they are there to support. I'd say recordings were the only clear way forward.

[coledog]

In our case, very little of what was actually said was recorded by the assessor and she 'trivialised' the stuff she did record

[Sura]

Agreed, Cole. I had that happen to myself. Reading the report the doctor wrote about me was upsetting, frustrating and hallerious. I was shaking by the end of it.

[queensclose]

One way to sort all this out would be to appoint an independent scrutineer someone who has no vested interest either way to be present at every assessment, to monitor what happens and to record what is said. Unlikely to happen unfortunately.

 

at the end of the day they get results for the government at the cost of joe public

 

75% appeals are upheld. how many didn't go to appeal and could have won. 1000s and 1000s.

[honeybee13]

In our case, very little of what was actually said was recorded by the assessor and she 'trivialised' the stuff she did record

 

Agreed. What you need to do now is construct an argument against the DWP/Atos's own system, using what they said about you and where it's wrong and how you think their descriptors should apply to you. Show the tribunal how many descriptor points you think you should have been awarded, hopefully the total will be over 15.

 

I hope someone else will know about submitting the document before the tribunal.

 

My best, HB

[coledog]

Many Thanks HB - I have submitted a statement based on your guide plus the supporting letters. Also the Tribunal sent us a complete set of medical records that the GP had sent them and I picked out relevant parts and letters from this which went with our submission, this proved to be very useful!

 

The Welfare Rights rep came to see us today and she is now coming with us to the Tribunal. Thinks we have a good case!

 

Was shocked to learn that at a time when more and more people are needing help with our dreadful benefits system - the Council are reducing the Welfare Rights team by 8 people out of 32 people and they are all having to reapply for their jobs and under redundancy threat - truly appalling!

[Astro1]

Where i live welfare rights are only taking on clients that are recommended to them due to cutbacks and the amount of people appealing.

[coledog]

Appeal ****WON*******

 

Had hearing on Wednesday with - I thought - a very pleasant judge and doctor but had to wait til this afternoon for postman to bring the decision as hearing went on so long, they may have missed their luncheon if they had to deliberate then. Our postie works the Twilight shift apparently.

 

Many thanks to Honeybee for the template, I submitted an adapted variation of this which I am very happy to provide to anyone who needs a document to submit or add to the sticky . The judge actually thanked the Welfare Rights officer for providing it and said it was very help - but they obviously did not read carefully it as it says this had been written by me on behalf on Mr Dog. (Hopefully WR may use it for future appeals as they submitted nothing themselves!!).

 

The hearing last an hour and the doctor went through all the medical records and reports etc. asked Mr Dog lots of questions.

 

Two very important points came out - the tribunal decision is based on the evidence of how you were when the assessment took place, so do not say you are worse now as they will conclude that you were OK then and IT IS NOT based on Medical Condition and reports but how this affects the Descriptors only. According to the judge - this is the law, it is the descriptors - what you can or cannot do that matter - not what a doctor and three consultants think. I am not sure that this is actually 'law' and would argue that this is probably where this process needs more investigation and challenges.

 

Anyway - to cut a long story short. They listened to our evidence but at the end - Mr Dog did what we had told them he does often and took a wobbly - told them they were patronising and he had had enough and stormed out!! Leaving me and the WF officer to apologise profusely. The WF officer thought that it had been evident that he had been becoming more and more stressed for the last hour but I thought that they might think that he was just putting it on!!

 

Anyway - the letter says the following, can anyone explain what this means and what DWP will do with it as I have not got a clue

 

'The Appellant is entitled to Employment and Support Allowance with Limited Capacity for Work

 

The following descriptors are satisfied in Schedule 2 ESA Regulations:-

 

12c - 6 points

17c -9 points

 

Total 15 Points

 

Regulation 29 is not satisfied

 

No descriptors are satisfied in Schedule 3 ESA Regulations:-

 

Regulation 35 is not satisfied'

 

ANYONE know what this means

 

 

Mr Dog is also very hacked off that he has only been awarded points for 'mental incapacity' only as we also emphasised the physical disabilities he has with mobility and his hands - is this significant? His physical and medical conditions have obviously affected mental health so what is going on here? he has the 15 points but do they just stop at that and not give points for other descriptors?

 

Any input gratefully received

 

And many thanks to all, xxxx

Edited February 17, 2012 by coledog