benefit fraud need advice

[Andyb75]

hello all

im new to the forum

right here goes ill try and keep it as short as possible!

basically ive got myself into a spot of trouble.

the DWP fraud officers have interviewed me for failing to notify change in circumstances as i was claiming jobseekers council tax benefit and housing benefit and working for an employment agency odd days here and there

to be honest i didnt want to have to keep notifying the DWP of my earnings as the forms were just to much for me

i know it was wrong doing that and i do feel guilty but at the time i really was struggling to make ends meet have 3 kids!

 

to cut a long story short

they are prosecuting me for the offence as the amount they are claiming is owed amounts to £12,000

i cant afford a solicitor and want to represent myself i feel confident enough to do it

my argument is this figure isnt right its way over the top.

went to magistrates court yesterday is has been ajourned for "an all options and probation report"

i spoke to a solicitor who said this can either be good or bad

i need a defence statement which will hold up in court i want to dispute the amount

now do i need to obtain a statement of earnings from my previous employer and the evidence from the DWP

and what about an advance disclosure from the prosecutor? to enable me to challenge them

i accept what ever punishment i get as ive already entered an early guilty plea but i just want argue the amount

im hoping someone here has some legal advice they can offer

id hope the courts would take into consideration this and the fact im representing myself

any advice folks

[rebel11]

Hi Andy

 

Welcome to CAG

 

The guys will be happy to advise as soon as they

 

are available.

[Nystagmite]

Have you asked how they reached their figure?

[Andyb75]

no not directly but i have the file they are using against me with various dates over a 2 year period i dont see how they have come to the £12,000 figure

[tidon]

no not directly but i have the file they are using against me with various dates over a 2 year period i dont see how they have come to the £12,000 figure

It sounds like they have all the evidence from the employment agency as to how long you have been working and receiving benefits and i think you will struggle to prove you've only worked "odd days here and there".

The £12.000 seems about right to me that they have paid you in two years, that's benefit for you and housing and council tax benefit as the benefit for a single person comes up to £3510 a year alone and then add the rent and council tax on for the two years so i think its about right..?

[Nystagmite]

That would make sense, Tidon.

[id6052]

in cases like this there are 2 separate issues

 

1) TRIBUNALS - have you been overpaid (and how much)?

 

2) COURTS - has a criminal offence occurred?

 

if your argument relates to the first issue, you need to challenge this by appealing against the overpayment decision, normally appeals must be made within one calendar month of the decision - however late appeals can be made up to a year later

 

the court is looking at the second issue, not sure what offence you have been charged with, but i assume it is most likely to be either you made a false statement to obtain benefit or dishonestly failed to notify a relevant change in circumstances - the amount of the overpayment would not be altered by the court, you need to go through the appeal route for that

[ErikaPNP]

The court will use the sum claimed fraudulently as a guideline for sentencing (amongst other factors) so it is important to challenge this if it is incorrect - but it depends by how much it's miscalculated.

 

There are 5 guideline figures. These are:

 

£500,000 or more

Starting point based on: £750,000

 

£100,000 or more and less than £500,000

Starting point based on: £300,000

 

£20,000 or more and less than £100,000

Starting point based on: £60,000

 

£5,000 or more and less than £20,000

Starting point based on: £12,500

 

Less than £5,000

Starting point based on: £2,500

[Nystagmite]

no not directly but i have the file they are using against me with various dates over a 2 year period i dont see how they have come to the £12,000 figure

 

In some cases, if you wkkr under 16 hours a week, your income is still too high for job seekers allowance. However, you may still have got some council tax benefit.

[tidon]

To be honest i dont think it matters how much you dispute the 12 grand i think the main thing here is the word "INTENT" signing up with a agency is 100% odds on it were gunna come on top that one day you were gunna get caught working on the side as the DWP as always worked closely with the agencies since the 80s since it were called the DHSS.

Now i'm not aiming this at you personally and i dont blame anyone who wants to earns a few quid on the side to put food on the table for the kids to survive because we all no that living on low income is hard and i would always turn a blind eye to something like that but if someone wants to take the **** and earn money on the side because they want it for other things like drugs and alcohol then there is a line? i'm not saying your like that but i just cant understand why you thought you could keep on claiming benefits while working for a agency you wouldn't get caught?

I think you need to prove If your a genuine case that you did it for your kids as otherwise you would not have been able to afford to live but like i said, they will try to prove the word INTENT which means you knew exactly what you were doing claiming the benefits whist working?

[id6052]

andy, you have said that you have had overpayments of jsa, hb and ctb

 

which of the overpayments do you think have been incorrectly assessed?

 

i would suggest getting a full written explanation as to how the overpayments have been calculated, then asking a welfare benefits advisor or the CAB to check the calculation, if the figures are wrong, appeal to a TRIBUNAL

 

even if the figures are right, you may be able to offset an underlying entitlement to a different benefit against the overpayment (this would be for sentencing purposes only if it is for a different benefit)

 

for example

if you had been paid £6k hb, £2k ctb and £4k jsa

however based upon your correct circumstances you would have been entitled to £3k hb, £1k ctb and £3k wtc

 

they should offset the underlying entitlement to hb and ctb against hb and ctb paid, reducing the actual overpayments to £3k hb and £1k ctb

they could not reduce the jsa overpayment as such, however for your court case as the judge is looking at the loss to public funds , he could offset the £3k wtc against the £4k jsa, you would still owe the £4k, but the judge could sentence you based upon the £1k difference (£4k jsa - £3k wtc) between what you received and what you should have received

 

you would still owe £8k (£3k hb + £1 k ctb + £4 k jsa) - but your sentence would be based upon £5k loss to public funds ((£3k hb + £1 k ctb + £4 k jsa - £3k wtc)

 

i hope that made sense

[tidon]

@id6052. I dont no how you can get to them figures as andy hasn't said how many days out of the two years he worked for the agency? all he has said is he worked " odd days here and there" now if andy said how many days he did work in the two years and how much pay he received then it would be a lot easer to work out and maybe not as serious but by the sound of it the DWP can prove he worked full time for two years and thats why they want the full amount back. The agency would have supplied all the information as to how long andy has worked for them so until andy says how long he as worked then you cannot even get a rough figure..!

[id6052]

tidon - it was an example