Cabot claimform - old Citi Card 'debt' **SETTLED BY TOMLIN**

[gettingsorted]

HI Shelley nice to hear from you replies to your comments:

 

Firstly, having sent a SAR letter, if you have received any valuable information, have you calculated how much in PPI or unfair charges you could claim? Apologies, just re-read your previous post. Have you put these figures into an excel spreadsheet to calculate the interest due, using the interest rates that were charged originally? PLEASE, do so. It may well add up to clear your account or you could offer F&F settlement for much less. I have added up the PPI and Charges - can't tell you how much at the moment as its at home; will amend this post later. The SAR didn;t give me much more than statements - details from my application, and a customer service note saying "purged from system"

 

In answer to your question (1) above - the second agreement would have been sent out with your normal monthly statements when they changed their T&C's. This would not have required your signature. It is my thought that if you didn't agree with the new varied T&C's then it was upto you to settle your account and close it. Maybe other Cagger's could clarify? By the date of the second agreement; Citi had stopped sending me any correspondence - statements or otherwise !

 

I have received identical documents ( two copies of reconstructed agreements) recently in response to my CCA request via DCA. The DCA say "if your claim for PPI is successful you may wish to settle our account"? How nice of them. I have chosen to send my claim in for my refund of PPI/unfair charges before I do anything else with the DCA. If I did this am I admitting the debt.

 

Just opened your pdf files and 2004 agreement is for Citicard accounts and 2007 agreement is for Citi and BMI baby accounts. Was your original agreement for a Citicard or an Associates card? I notice that the agreements both name Citicard as the creditor whereas the court documents name it as Associates Visa. Maybe another Cagger could clarify if this is sufficient justification that invalid agreements have been reconstructed. According to the first two letters I got from Cabot -it says "Original Lender = Citifinancial" and "Type of Account = Credit Card" but from then on its says "Original Lender = Citifinancial" and "Type of Account = Associates Classic Visa".......is this significant ?

 

Another thing I have realised is that on the first letter I received from Cabot the debt is at just under £5000 but on the claim it is more - Cabot's interest at X%. According to the statements I received from Citi £2000 of the interest charged is from after they stopped sending me statements and after I had tried to come to an arrangement with them.

 

Any more comments and help with this would be much appreciated as I don't know where to start - today had some more really bad news - not financial but still very upsetting ! Struggling to cope atm.

GS

[the_shadow]

Hi,

 

Was there a period of time before Cabot sent you the notice of assignment that they are claiming interest for? They must send you an annual statement to become entitled to claim interest for that period.

 

S.

[gettingsorted]

Hi Shadow - Hopes this makes sense ............... The debt from Citi was just under £5000 according to the default I have; my last proper statement from Citi (late 2006) says just under £3000. The last copy statement sent to me by Citi under SAR (never received by me - date 2010) says the same just under £5000. Citi appear to have stopped charging interest in late 2007; this is the same month as the 2nd Recon CCA. The welcome to Cabot letter (including a NOA - no figure on the NOA) says the just under £5000, the further interest Cabot are claiming is the XX% they began to charge from that date. Funnily enough my partner has pointed out each time I sent them a letter they stopped charging interest for a while and then started again.

 

I know its dangerous but after months of trying to contact them (unfortunately mostly by phone answered by overseas call centres) and leaving messages for their debt people to ring me back. I finally gave up did not receive any correspondence from them for years so I assumed that they had written the debt off ! what an idiot.

 

As I mentioned previously all the statements received from Citi up to 2010 give a monthly payment due by the date of the month after the last one where interest is charged .........eg. January 2006 statement with interest on payment due by 2nd Feb 2006 and then each copy statement from then on say payment due by 2nd Feb 2006. These are not the right dates !!

Thanks

GS

[gettingsorted]

Oh dear - very upset now .................just rang the helpline number to ask a couple of questions, honestly didn't want to bother you all with trivial stuff ! Hit the button that said if you have recived a claim form and are unsure what to do and it just repeated what was on the form said to press ? to repeat the message and when I didn't it just hyng up on me !!! what now ?

GS

[Shelley181146]

Hi GS,

HI Shelley nice to hear from you replies to your comments:

 

Firstly, having sent a SAR letter, if you have received any valuable information, have you calculated how much in PPI or unfair charges you could claim? Apologies, just re-read your previous post. Have you put these figures into an excel spreadsheet to calculate the interest due, using the interest rates that were charged originally? PLEASE, do so. It may well add up to clear your account or you could offer F&F settlement for much less. I have added up the PPI and Charges - can't tell you how much at the moment as its at home; will amend this post later. The SAR didn;t give me much more than statements - details from my application, and a customer service note saying "purged from system"

 

In answer to your question (1) above - the second agreement would have been sent out with your normal monthly statements when they changed their T&C's. This would not have required your signature. It is my thought that if you didn't agree with the new varied T&C's then it was upto you to settle your account and close it. Maybe other Cagger's could clarify? By the date of the second agreement; Citi had stopped sending me any correspondence - statements or otherwise !

 

I have received identical documents ( two copies of reconstructed agreements) recently in response to my CCA request via DCA. The DCA say "if your claim for PPI is successful you may wish to settle our account"? How nice of them. I have chosen to send my claim in for my refund of PPI/unfair charges before I do anything else with the DCA. If I did this am I admitting the debt. I can't answer that but it sems the norm on here

 

Just opened your pdf files and 2004 agreement is for Citicard accounts and 2007 agreement is for Citi and BMI baby accounts. Was your original agreement for a Citicard or an Associates card? I notice that the agreements both name Citicard as the creditor whereas the court documents name it as Associates Visa. Maybe another Cagger could clarify if this is sufficient justification that invalid agreements have been reconstructed. According to the first two letters I got from Cabot -it says "Original Lender = Citifinancial" and "Type of Account = Credit Card" but from then on its says "Original Lender = Citifinancial" and "Type of Account = Associates Classic Visa".......is this significant ? Not sure, but I have to wonder if they have sent you out the correct copy of T&C's if you know you had an Associates card. Your agreement is slightly different to mine and it does state Associates on the first reconstituted agreement but Citi on the other one, if that makes sense? I am looking for errors in their documentation or procedures in any shape or form. For example; the correspondence within my SAR information included copies of letters we had sent them, but not all of them. I know I sent them because I have referred to them in the letters they have produced abd they must have received the others because some were to notify them of change of addresses and the statements arrived to the new address. Something trivial like that, I am hoping will help along the way.

 

Another thing I have realised is that on the first letter I received from Cabot the debt is at just under £5000 but on the claim it is more - Cabot's interest at X%. According to the statements I received from Citi £2000 of the interest charged is from after they stopped sending me statements and after I had tried to come to an arrangement with them.

 

Any more comments and help with this would be much appreciated as I don't know where to start - today had some more really bad news - not financial but still very upsetting ! Struggling to cope atm. I am in exactly the same position and some days are really hard but we find the strength to carry on for another day and we have to live another day to get back what rightfully is ours from people like this. Put the kettle on, strong cuppa and some music - helps me everytime. Stay strong chuck.

GS

Regards

Shelley

[ohitsonlyme]

Subbing with interest, court papers recieved this week from old (really old pre-2000) peoples bank of connecticut

 

Will start my own thread but I am up for a tussle

 

The procedure citi and cobots have followed seems to be exactly the same for all of us recon agreements no real info on the POC

 

IMHO they are fishing for folks with potential equity in there homes and some will roll over because they dont have CAG

I wont!!!

Neither should you

 

Ive lost lots to the banks and others but I am fighting back and like most of us on here I really have nothing to lose

 

 

onlyme

[the_shadow]

IMHO they are fishing for folks with potential equity in there homes

 

I think you are spot on there

 

You'll all need to show mistakes/problems with the recons imho to win.

 

S.

[gettingsorted]

Thank you all for your replies - my partner hid my laptop last night and so I didn;t see them till this morning - I will acknowledge my claim say I intend to defend and then look at it again. As you said shadow - if I chicken out I can even settle on the steps of the court ! What worries me is the costs (as it has sneaked to above £5000), a CCJ and then a charging order situation !

 

Can anyone point me to a correct agreement so I can compare them - the fact that one is dated late 2007 but the last correspondence and statements I have is late 2006 and the interest rate increased in mid 2006, not late 2007 per the agreement.

 

Ok - just a couple more question :

I acknowledge by the 16/6

If I defend it has got to go in by the 30/6

What happens then ? Is the court date imminent or weeks and If I can't make it can I apply to change the date ?

 

Also I have been reading Lamb909's thread do I need to be writing to Morgans to ask for stuff ?

Thank you all for your support...............sorry for all the questions !

GS

[Satterthwaite]

Your court date could be months away, nearer christmas I would think.

[gettingsorted]

Thanks for that - I thought I'd have to be in court the week after !!!!!

GS

[gettingsorted]

Hello all - have acknowledged service; I didn't have to do anything else at the moment did I ? What did it mean by contesting jurisdiction ?

GS

[the_shadow]

Doesnt apply here, say if they raised a claim in england against you but you lived in scotland, then you'd object as the claim should be raised in your country of residence.

 

S.

[gettingsorted]

Thank you

GS

[ohitsonlyme]

I think you are spot on there

 

You'll all need to show mistakes/problems with the recons imho to win.

 

S.

 

Can you tell me/us a little more info about the mistakes / problems, I find it difficult to pick up information from one thread to another and know I am getting it right

 

onlyme (and by the sound of it many many more)

[the_shadow]

basically your looking for anything that makes the agreement inaccurate when compared to the original agreement, useful things to check are the apr% looking at your statements compared to the reconstruction etc.

 

S.

[Shelley181146]

Another example might be;

 

If you sent the creditor a letter by r/d and later sar'd them but your letter wasn't in the bundle of documents, you would have the r/d receipt to prove that the letter was received and you could rely on that if your case went to court.

 

Look very closely at all your documents and compare closely with the original agreement. If you draw up a timeline of docements it will help you see back at what took place and jog your memory.

 

Shelley

[ohitsonlyme]

basically your looking for anything that makes the agreement inaccurate when compared to the original agreement, useful things to check are the apr% looking at your statements compared to the reconstruction etc.

 

S.

 

Shadow can you explain a little further.

Are recons now deemed as being acceptable to the courts instead of original docs

 

I have read and do not really understand the harrison link judgement so how does this affect cases similar to ours

Is there a thread that you are aware of that is similar to this one and has gone through the court already as won or lost even

 

onlyme

Edited June 12, 2011 by ohitsonlyme
typos

[MARTIN3030]

I think we need to be clear that the Harrison case considered a number of things,and was not your everyday case.

Recon agreements have been accepted.

I will leave Shadow to respond more fully,but there is no "one fits all" for this

[the_shadow]

Shadow can you explain a little further.

Are recons now deemed as being acceptable to the courts instead of original docs

 

Not by all judges but it seems the norm now, certainly I would prepare yourself to have to defend when a judge states a reconstruction will suffice as evidence, its not clear whether DJ Waksman in Carey wanted this to happen but it is happening so we need to be aware.

 

I have read and do not really understand the harrison link judgement so how does this affect cases similar to ours

Is there a thread that you are aware of that is similar to this one and has gone through the court already as won or lost even

onlyme

 

Harrison is quite unique, for one it went for the claimant and for two the defendant was able to show a massive paper trail which convinced the judge that he had not received the t&c with the agreement and therefore the agreement didnt contain the prescribed terms. This was due to even keeping the envelopes of every letter they had sent him. Further there were harassment issues with MBNA and Link phoning the claimant multitude of times from unlisted or unrecorded phone numbers and then denying it.

 

As to expanding on what makes a reconstructed agreement incorrect I really feel you need to understand the issues yourself, there is no paint by numbers for this I'm afraid and no thread listing everything. Each case falls or stands on its own merits so go through the agreement with a fine tooth comb, compare the reconstructed agreement with the original ifyou have it or the statements, look at the t&c etc and check through the regulations both for the CCA1974 and the credit/default notices regulations too.

 

For an instance where the interest rate is not correct on the reconstruction look up Kotecha vs Phoenix recoveries Jan 2011.

 

S.

[gettingsorted]

Sorry I haven't been around went to visit family over the weekend and am not getting notifications:

 

I need to get my defence sorted; do I need to be asking Cabot/Morgan for more paperwork as I have very little on the particulars of claim ? I saw on lamb's thread that he had written a CPR ? to ask for more stuff should I do this>

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?274619-Cabot-Halifax-Credit-Card-Cabot-now-started-Court-Action-Help-Please/page6 Post 101

 

If I put my defence in - can I then alter it or will it be set in stone? I'm not sure what to put in - there is all this stuff about recon agreements being valid and then not valid I am totally confused; the other thing I have seen that if its an Associates Card then that means something as regards the agreement; what is meant as an Associates Card ?

 

I wrote to Cabot several times to get a signed copy of the agreement and have had no acknowledgement from them other than in the last one sent to Morgan where they just acknolwedged the letter. I do have RD receipts of all but one (not sent RD) ; the way I understand it they must tell me that there is a signed agreement and be prepared to produce it in court ? but with the 2007 one - I would definintely have not signed it !

 

I also tried to contact Citi on numerous occasions to try to resolve the situation - I have even the I & E that I returned to them in the SAR and I have in my papers a letter saying no way will we help you and asking me to contact them - which we tried ....can this be part of my defence. There are no copies of any correspondence in the SAR from Citi. Can I use as part of my defence that because of personal circs I finally gave up trying to get hold of them due to their lack of response and then a silence for 4 years.

 

Help please ?

GS

[gettingsorted]

please !

[Shelley181146]

Firstly GS I am in the same boat as you having had a similar experience with Citi, so I can only offer an opinion which is not a qualified one, just made from my own experience but here goes.[QUOTE=gettingsorted;3447912]Sorry I haven't been around went to visit family over the weekend and am not getting notifications:

 

I need to get my defence sorted; do I need to be asking Cabot/Morgan for more paperwork as I have very little on the particulars of claim ? I saw on lamb's thread that he had written a CPR ? to ask for more stuff should I do this>

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?274619-Cabot-Halifax-Credit-Card-Cabot-now-started-Court-Action-Help-Please/page6 Post 101

 

If I put my defence in - can I then alter it or will it be set in stone? I'm not sure what to put in - there is all this stuff about recon agreements being valid and then not valid I am totally confused; the other thing I have seen that if its an Associates Card then that means something as regards the agreement; what is meant as an Associates Card ? My original c/c was an Associates card which then became 'Citi Financial' c/c. My first recon agreement names them as 'The Associates' and the second recon names them as Citi Financial. Check your early statements, do they say Associates or Citi?

 

I wrote to Cabot several times to get a signed copy of the agreement and have had no acknowledgement from them other than in the last one sent to Morgan where they just acknolwedged the letter. I do have RD receipts of all but one (not sent RD) ; the way I understand it they must tell me that there is a signed agreement and be prepared to produce it in court ? but with the 2007 one - I would definintely have not signed it !

 

I also tried to contact Citi on numerous occasions to try to resolve the situation - I have even the I & E that I returned to them in the SAR and I have in my papers a letter saying no way will we help you and asking me to contact them - which we tried ....can this be part of my defence. There are no copies of any correspondence in the SAR from Citi. Can I use as part of my defence that because of personal circs I finally gave up trying to get hold of them due to their lack of response and then a silence for 4 years. I think this was tactics from Citi and most other c/c's and I would use this as part of my defence but I would appreciate other opinion's on this. Not sure of this is helpful but may alay your concerns that it happens to everybody and that your not on your own.

Help please ?

GS

[the_shadow]

GS,

 

Do you have all the relevant information from the claimant... i.e.

 

1.The Reconstructed agreements they will be relying on (Varied and "original" reconstructions)?

2.Details of the default although the actual notice is not required

3.Details of the Notice of Assignment although actual notice is not required (proof you received it is)

 

Remember the mantra when dealing with debts and chasers...

 

1. They must prove YOU owe them the money

2. They must prove you OWE them the money.

3. They must prove you owe THEM the money.

 

 

S.

[gettingsorted]

Thanks both - will reply more fully later

GS

[gettingsorted]

Shelley - any opinion is valued - I feel like I am in the middle of a lake without a paddle !! I think if it was only the amount I owed when still chasing Citi; I might make them an instalment offer.....its all the **** interest, etc afterwards and their attitude ! I have my partner checking the statements as we speak !

 

Perhaps someone could confirm if I am right here ? the way I understand it they must tell me that there is a signed agreement and be prepared to produce it in court ?

 

Shadow - thanks for getting back to me

 

GS,

 

Do you have all the relevant information from the claimant... i.e.

 

1.The Reconstructed agreements they will be relying on (Varied and "original" reconstructions)?

Have two agreements; 2004 and 2007. How can I tell if they are varied; according to my statements I have four rates of interest charged. 25%, 23%, 22% and 30%. The agreements only mention 2 - the first and the last but the second agreement has a date of 2007 on it - 12 months after they changed the interest rate and again I state that there is no way I would have sigened a second one.

2.Details of the default although the actual notice is not required..............default on file from Citi dated 2006 - nothing from Cabot;

3.Details of the Notice of Assignment although actual notice is not required (proof you received it is). Received of a NOA from Cabot when they initially wrote to me.

S.

 

The Mould wrote for lamb - should I send Morgan's something the same ?

 

"

"Prior to the issue of proceedings, I had delivered to you a request pursuant to s78 CCA 1974 (as amended) for production of the agreement that you now mention in your Particulars of Claim and upon which you clearly intend to rely. It will be noted that you disregarded said request.

 

2. You allege in your particulars that you are the assignee of a debt purchased from Bank of Scotland, to this extent, I require a copy of the Deed of Assignment.

 

3. As I am sure you will be aware, the legislation applicable to assignments of contracts is laid down in the Law of Property Act 1925 s136(1), in this regard, I require a copy of the Notice of Assignment and proof of service thereof, I refer you to s196(4) of said act in respect of statutory notices and the requirements imposed upon service of the same.

 

4. Default Notice, again, I am sure you are aware of the requirements imposed upon creditors under s87 CCA 1974 (as amended) in respect of service of said statutory notice being a pre-condition of enforcement and therefore I require a copy of the statutory notice you intend to rely upon in these proceedings and proof of service of the same.

 

5. Termination notice, I require a copy of the termination notice you intend to rely upon in these proceedings and proof of service thereof.

 

6. Account statements, I require a copy of any annual statements of account that you intend to rely upon if you allege to have served any such statements. Although 4, 5 and 6 are not mentioned in your particulars, I would be grateful if you should agree to voluntarily disclose said documents as this could enable the possible reduction of any issues in the case and thereby assist the overriding objectives.

 

A few amendments for you Lamb, add them in if they are applicable (based upon your reports here, I think they are applicable)

 

Thank you both again

GS