Electronic Signature for Online Applications

[Jonny_J]

Hi All,

 

Does anybody have any information on online applications for credit cards? I know that as of 31/12/2004 a written signature is not required on a credit agreement for an online application, but how does this affect the copy of the CCA that the creditor has a duty to supply under S78?

 

Do the T&Cs still have to be within the four corners of the CCA? Vanquis and Lowell don't seem the think so. They have just supplied a screenshot titled 'Digital Signature Application Details' along with a generic copy of the T&Cs which states that it is a 'Credit Card Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974'.

 

Any ideas guys?

[the_shadow]

Hi All,

 

Does anybody have any information on online applications for credit cards? I know that as of 31/12/2004 a written signature is not required on a credit agreement for an online application, but how does this affect the copy of the CCA that the creditor has a duty to supply under S78?

 

Do the T&Cs still have to be within the four corners of the CCA? Vanquis and Lowell don't seem the think so. They have just supplied a screenshot titled 'Digital Signature Application Details' along with a generic copy of the T&Cs which states that it is a 'Credit Card Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974'.

 

Any ideas guys?

 

The reason they havent stated that the t&c are in the four corners are due to the HSBC v Carey case where the judge tried to blur the line between a document being a single form or a collection of information delivered to the signee at the time of signing.

 

As these t&c were shown to you digitally prior to signing tho I feel you might have a difficult time convincing a judge that they didnt display them prior to you ticking the box, the judiciary are inclined to give the lenders the most leeway possible.

 

S.

[Jonny_J]

Hi Shadow,

 

Thanks for the reply. I understand that now, and thank you for the very frank advice.

[Jonny_J]

Hi All,

I know its been a while since I posted on this thread, but I have just read on here that these electronic signatures are enforceable using a tick in a box (which I'm fully prepared to accept), but that the tick has to be shown on the CCA. I have also noticed some incorrect information on the 'screenshot' which I wouldn't have submitted (like the time at present address). I think that Vanquis have made this up from the limited information that they might have had and guessed at some of it.

 

My question is, does the tick box have to be shown? And should I contest this as I wouldn't have submitted some of the information contained in it?

[RoyalIrish]

As these t&c were shown to you digitally prior to signing tho I feel you might have a difficult time convincing a judge that they didnt display them prior to you ticking the box, the judiciary are inclined to give the lenders the most leeway possible.

 

S.

 

How on earth could a judge honestly accept this particular document as being valid at all?

 

I think that your opinion is slightly misleading, did you actually see what Lowell's and Vanquis are trying to 'fob off' as being legal?

 

It is ridiculous!

 

Any child could get the same info and produce the same documentation if they knew where to look.

 

Surely a DCA cannot just simply 'fabricate' documents and 'insert' information that is sparse at best and often inaccurate and incorrect?

 

I can not accept that the legal system is that ridiculous!

 

If I send Lowell's a spreadsheet of imaginary payments I have made them since they started harrassing me, would this be legal?

 

The creditor has to be able to prove that the credit was applied for online, NOBODY would offer credit to ANYONE unless they provided comprehensive accurate personal information NOT the crap that is printed on these Lowell speadsheets.

 

Name one online creditor that doesn't require marital status, previous address or occupation before they approve the application?

 

Have a look the crappy document that was sent to us and give us your opinion, if it was sent to you would you accept it?

 

 

Edited May 4, 2011 by RoyalIrish

[RoyalIrish]

Jonny,

 

Just to let you know mate, this is most certainly NOT a computer screenshot.

 

It is a spreadsheet that was most probably manufactured by Lowell's to LOOK like a screenshot.

 

It is extremely shabby and is full of mistakes.

 

Please don't for one minute presume that this is official, it is crap made to look official.

 

RI

[Jonny_J]

Thanks for that RI. I might SAR Vanquis and see what they come up with. If Lowells have made this up, Vanquis won't have a copy.

[biggeorge]

Just had the same thing sent through from Vanquis themselves after a CCA request for brother-inlaw's account.

 

Are these no good then as legal agreement?

 

Will get some pics done and upload so you can see.

 

George

[Jonny_J]

Hi Biggeorge,

 

So you got yours straight from Vanquis then. Maybe Lowells aren't making them up then. I think that they might be questionable at best, but we need to find out more about the requirements, and why there appear to be so many mistakes on them with regard to personal data. Are there any mistakes on yours?

[247orbital]

Vanquish are a joke, I recently sent an SAR to them, due to the age of the account I no longer had the account number. I sent security detail, DOB, mothers Maiden name etc and a copy of recent bank statement, and a copy of a driving license. Vanquish sent it all back with a not even a covering letter, just a compliment slip stating they could do nothing without an account number. So as far as I'm concerned they have failed to supply a SAR and have admited an account does not exists in my name. So they can remove any information from my credit file.

[Jonny_J]

Vanquis are actually incompetent. I once tried to make a payment to them of £15, they took £50. When I complained they paid the £50 back, told me it was my fault and I should speak up on the phone, then gave me a late charge because by this time there wasn't a payment made by the due date.

But my problem is now with Lowells. I'm really not sure what to do about this at the present time, and the more I read about it, the muddier the waters become.

[RoyalIrish]

Jonny,

 

I would SERIOUSLY advise you NOT to pay Lowell's ANYTHING until such times as it is 100% confirmed that you are indeed liable for the debt.

 

Lowell's are **** and throughout this forum you will see many instances of their attitude and mistreatment of decent people.

 

Take it to the wire, do everything you can to frustrate and irritate them because they will take great pleasure in doing the same to you.

 

I would think that this 'speadsheet' began it's travels at Vanquis but Lowell's seem to think that they can use it to play the 'Electronic Communications Order 2004' card.

 

Basically it is useless because of it's obvious amateurish design and the dubious data contained therein.

 

How on earth could this be a legally binding document when there are so many errors and such little factual information?

 

I doubt very much that this is enforcable due to these factors, if it was enforcable it would open the floodgates to many more DCA's producing these crappy looking spreadsheets and claiming that they are actually 'online applications'.

 

I wouldn't use it to line the hamster's cage!

 

My understanding was that there had to be a 'terms & conditions' section with an 'accept' button.

 

Remember, it's not actually taken from a web application either, it is simply a spreadsheet with some personal details filled in.

 

It would take literally 2 minutes to enter a person's details onto it.

 

There is NO WAY that this is the actual 'online application' that Vanquis used for credit card application.

 

I think that this spreadsheet has actually been designed to LOOK as if it is emphasising the 'Electronic Communications Order 2004'.

 

If you look on mine, the document seems to be less interested with accurate personal details and moreso with the emphasis being on INTERNET and DATES etc.

 

Thus this would neatly fall into their claims that the account was opened online and would fall into the 'Electronic Communications Order 2004' category.

 

If you see what I mean?

 

Shhhh, don't tell them but the date that I actually applied for a Vanquis card is different than they have got on the spreadsheet!

 

RI

Edited May 5, 2011 by RoyalIrish

[Jonny_J]

Hi RI,

I might just write to Lowells then and say that because some of the information contained in this spreadsheet is incorrect, and there is no indication that I accepted the terms and conditions that the spreadsheet alludes to, I am putting the debt into dispute.

[RoyalIrish]

Reread the post above yours Jonny, I've edited it!

[Jonny_J]

Ignore, or dispute letter?

[Jonny_J]

BTW ***Jonny_J waves to guests***

[RoyalIrish]

As I said mate, make life particulary difficult for Lowell's!

 

Let them keep sending their stupid threatograms and only write to them if it is absolutely nessessary!

 

It costs them money for every letter they send, not much but it gives me a wee tickle knowing I'm costing them!

 

I'm going to call their bluff and see what action they take!

 

If they reckon that their stupid attempt at an electronic signature bluff is viable then let them bring it on.

 

I don't see any point in playing letter 'ping-pong' again with them again, they will ignore any complaint that I make anyway.

 

You have to remember that Lowell's are totally despicable and will NEVER admit to any wrong doing, EVER!

 

They will lie, cheat and if they could, steal money from you!

 

I have numerous letters from Lowell's regarding a CCA request and a final letter stating that my account is now closed (wait for it), DUE TO THE LENGTH OF TIME SINCE THE ACCOUNT WAS OPENED WE CANNOT LOCATE THE CCA. (Classic!)

 

Now they are trying to say that I opened it in 2007, you gotta laugh at them really!

 

RI

 

RoyalIrish waves to Lowell's Losers!

[Jonny_J]

Cool! I'll keep you posted

 

It shouldn't be long now I've already had the

"We have not received payment, or any valid reason for non payment" letter

 

In another letter I have from them, they're threatening an "Attached Earnings Order"

and "securing the value of the debt against your property"

1. I don't own a property. And

2. There isn't even a CCJ yet!

 

So they might have a bit of trouble on both accounts I reckon. Never mind eh?

[Jonny_J]

Just to give you the heads up. Lowells are now using a BT service (08456021111) to send text messages by voice to your phone. If they do this to you, just call 0800 5875 252, press option 1, then option 5. This will stop the messages altogether.

[biggeorge]

Well here you go, what I received from Vanquis for CCA request.

 

http://www.marshall-hosting.co.uk/vanquis/1.jpg

 

http://www.marshall-hosting.co.uk/vanquis/2.jpg

 

http://www.marshall-hosting.co.uk/vanquis/3.jpg

 

http://www.marshall-hosting.co.uk/vanquis/4.jpg

[brokebutnotbeatn]

Here we go again!

[RoyalIrish]

Here we go again!

 

Sorry?

[brokebutnotbeatn]

There are a couple of threads with the same excel file posted up - have a read...

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?303275-Interesting-Development-In-Lowell-Vanquis-Debacle

[RoyalIrish]

There are a couple of threads with the same excel file posted up - have a read...

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?303275-Interesting-Development-In-Lowell-Vanquis-Debacle

 

Yeah, I know!

 

One of them is mine!

 

There are a few people needing help with this one, if it bores you or you find it annoying then please accept out humble apologies and leave the thread.

 

RI

[brokebutnotbeatn]

Royal. You misunderstand. This approach beggars belief and with the numbers rising I am following with interest to see how this one plays out as it seems such a strong case for fraud. My comment was in relation to them, not to the posting! x