Triton - Natwest Overdraft

[Kayyak]

I have been paying Triton a comfortable amount for over a year and recently they keep sending me letters to telephone them to discuss and review the account.

 

I now have an up to date statement following my request for this as I noticed that the debt has increased by about £1,000. Turns out this extra amount has been made up of charges and interest. I have now written to Edinburgh as suggested (my previous letter didn't get me anywhere) to try to reduce the amount outstanding by that amount and then I was planning to make a small full and final settlement offer.

 

I have recently rang them to get a feel for their procedures and to try to negotiate a small settlement but they would only accept the amount outstanding less those charges. They also wanted to go through I & E which I wouldn't as they want too much detailed info. But without that information, they are unlikely to continue to accept the amount I am currently paying each month and they have so far rejected this offer.

 

I am just wondering how they may proceed next. Does anyone have any ideas? I get the impression they will not default and terminate me and are likely to go for a charging order.

They seem so unreasonable to deal with. This is an overdraft and until they default me using the CCA heading, I feel I am unable to obtain a CCA, as overdrafts don't normally aplly. I'm trying to plan my next move in readiness. Any thoughts appreciated.

 

Kayyak

[the_shadow]

Ok, you seem to be seeing the chicken before the egg here...

 

They CANNOT get a Charging order without first terminating you and taking you to court to obtain a CCJ although if youre in scotland its called something else..

 

Once they have the CCJ then they can apply for a CO unless the court agrees to a repayment plan and writes it in the judgement.

 

Have a read of Sequenci's blogs in my signature.

 

S.

[harrassed senior]

Depending on how you feel about this, I have had success in stalling their greed by sending the letter below:

 

If you maintain payments, they would look pretty stupid in front of a Judge.

 

This is what I always send:

 

 

Dear 'good friend'

 

I acknowledge receipt of your letter of *************** with enclosed form.

 

I have been advised that this 'personal' information is just that - personal. However, following your request, I obtained a Court orientated Income and Expenditure Form which I understand only a Court and/or Judge can legally have access to, and filled in the details required therein.

 

Following the revelations about my financial status that completing this form brought to light, I would like to thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

 

From this information it is obvious that I have no disposable income at this present time. It has been suggested that following discovery of this situation that a County Court Judge, would, in all probability Order that I can afford no more that £1 per month to each and all debtors, which of course includes yourselves.

 

If you would now kindly send me details in order that I can set up a Standing Order in this amount, I would be grateful.

[Kayyak]

Thanks for that letter, it does sound good. I have now received a letter from Green & Co, stating they are going for legal action, but will allow me one final opportunity to contact Natwest. How Kind of them. Think I will file it and ignore especially as I now realise that they are part of Natwest. Was considering sending them a letter stating the monies I owe is in dispute, but they should know that.

 

Kayyak

[Abby25]

Hi,

 

Bank accounts are not regulated under the CCA74 - but ODs certainly are (with part v exemption) - part v exemption just means that the bank doesen't have to provide a traditional cca document, as you would have signed and received with a loan or credit card. Instead they in place of a traditional cca document, send you the copy letter of facility you would/should have received when the od agreement commenced (and every time the auth od limit was amended i.e increased or reduced). They also have to send you any copy terms and conditions, statements etc......

 

HOWEVER, part v exemption only applies, if the bank when you send in your cca request claims it, if they don't then the normal cca procedures apply.

 

Additionally, if you are in unauth waters, then within 3 mths of you going outside of your auth od terms, your bank should have sent you details of the revised higher interest (unauthorised od) rate you were now subject to, and any other unauth OD charges to be applied, and the charging period. (they should also send you details of the charges applied to your OD during each charing period - i.e a monthy statement illustrating what they had added to the os debt).

 

Now, if your bank did not send you such information within the specified time frame, under the terms of the CCA, they forfeit the benefits of part v exemption - which means that the OD facility now needs a full and correctly executed signed credit agreement to be presented if they wish to pursue through the courts.

 

Hope this helps ...

 

Abs x

Edited February 27, 2011 by Abby25
typo

[panther12]

Yes you're right, Triton and green & co are part of RBS. I'm in similar circs helping a friend with a natwest O/D. It's been defaulted for over a year so at least no further int & charges are been applied. In our case we sent off a SAR and the amount of charges levied to the account over the years comes to the same amount that they request. After triton & greens it got passed to moorcroft, wescot, fredrickson and now Bryan Carter is on the case. I've told them all to sod off (in a nice way) and to issue proceedings if they feel they have a case where a vigourous defence & counterclaim will be submitted for the amount of unlawful charges. Just waiting to hear back from carter has he is one of the more dirty ones who tries for a ccj.

[Kayyak]

Panther -What were your reasons in telling them to get lost? ... Guess its those charges.

 

Thanks Abby - that's interesting stuff, new to me. I'm only in unauth o/d waters because of their charges, they have never produced statements with charges, nor informed me of a higher interest rate. Don't suppose they'll produce a CCA as I have not signed anything recently, so legally could this be unenforceable? I did sign for an o/d a long time ago and had letters at the time and whenever the interest rate changes but nothing recently.

 

Kayyak

Edited February 27, 2011 by Kayyak
more detai

[panther12]

Panther -What were your reasons in telling them to get lost? ... Guess its those charges.

I told whoever is pursuing that from the documentation received in response to my SAR & CCA request that their client have failed to adhere to the Consumer Credit Act therefore rendering any legal action unenforceable in law. To be honest, from what I’ve read even if it’s unenforceable it still comes down to the judge lottery so I think we stand a better chance on the unlawful charges. I’ve basically put the ball in their court and told em to issue proceedings or FO.

This is what I sent to Carter:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?294785-Natwest-OD-Bryan-Carter-now-on-the-case!&p=3305521&viewfull=1#post3305521

[Kayyak]

Sent Harassed Senior's letter in #3 and they have come back to me requesting a copy of the court order stating I can only afford £1 per month or require the information provided to the court. I didn't say I had a court order!!! I cannot put it any simpler.

 

They keep insisting on a completed Income and Expenditure form so they can determine what 'I' can afford to pay. I am the one who decides what I can afford. I've already informed them they are not having one as they refused it last time (they didn't believe I had to pay for my child's school bus).

 

I also sent a letter to their complaints team in Edinburgh regarding unfair charges and had a reply from Telford, hardship fund team. Again requesting I&E form but they'll probably refuse it so waste of time. They state they enclosed a blank financial statement form. It was blank alright - there wasn't one!

[Abby25]

Hi there, Traditionally an OD does not have a signed agreement (although not all in cases).

 

ODs as previously advised ARE regulated under the CCA74 (with part V exemption) - and I have had this confirmed by both my bank and CRAs too.

 

This means that you can request as normal a copy of your OD agreement - which will be a letter of facility - this is the document confirming what your OD limit was, from when it took effect, penalties for default or going over the limit etc ... as well as the letter of facility - which must be incluced for each and every change to the OD (increase/decrease) - they must also send you requested statements, t&cs and any other documentation that they may wish to rely upon in the matter.

 

If they don't claim part V exemption & it gets to court, they have basically forfeited this right - meaning that as they have not declared their reliance upon part v exemption, they are in this action stating that there is a traditional signed cca available - and they have to produce such. .

 

Additionally, if they don't communicate with you (i.e give no tacit agreement) within 3 months and 7 days of you going outside of your normal od limits - they have further forfeited CCA rights - again meaning a traditional CCA agreement is reqd - refer prev post .

 

As the acct is regulated under the CCA - any Default Notices need to be watertight too - so check and look for errors - although if small errors and everything else re CCA regs stacks up I doubt the Judge would rule against the bank.

 

Also - any advice my paras keep merging everytime I post - I have to manually put in paragraph spaces each time

Edited May 27, 2011 by Abby25

[radmm0]

Hi Kayyak

 

Just wanted to know if you have got any news on your case with NatWest, as my wife and I are going through hell with them at the moment for a Joint Account O/D? We have got less than a week to put together a defence or admit to the debt with regards to a Count Court Claim against her and 2 weeks for a separate one against me.

 

The comments and replies on your thread have been very useful, so any other news about your case could also be beneficial.

 

Rgds.

radmm0

[radmm0]

Hi Abby25

 

Thanks for your very useful posts on this thread, especially CCA 74 and Part V exemption for O/Ds. Would there possibly be some sort of 'exemption' on the Part V exemption for Joint Bank Accounts, as there is a signed mandate when the Joint account is created? i.e. would the bank not need to produce an original of this document/mandate?

 

I would really like you to have a look at my thread about my wife's case, but I'm unable to post links due to having less than 20 posts. You can refer my thread for more detailed info by searching for Eversheds/NatWest.

 

Thanks and regards.

radmm0

[the_shadow]

Radmm0's thread can be found here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?310846-Eversheds-NatWest-Joint-Bank-Account-Overdraft-Court-Claim-Advice-Please

 

S.

[Kayyak]

Hi Raddm0

 

No, I haven't taken this any further at the moment, I need to do some more research on the O/D part 5 exemption first. I'm sorry I cannot offer you anything further to assist you in your case, hopefully someone will come along soon to help you. I think I would only 'possibly' admit the amount I owed, less the charges if it went down this route. I'll check your thread with interest. Good luck.

Kayyak

[Kayyak]

Hi Abby

At the moment I'm paying £1 per month but when Natwest contact me again I need to be ready for them so I am trying to plan ahead. Should I start off by sending the normal template CCA letter? If so, I presume their reply should be the Part v exemption and then they'll send letters, statements etc. But then if they don't claim part v exemption then they will be at fault? Am I understanding this correctly?

Kayyak

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Hi, sorry to come on this late but is this an overdraft on a current account?

If so a CCA request is of no value, at present I can;t see the rest of the thread.

[Kayyak]

Thanks for your relpy Brigadier, yes it's an overdraft. I've just been searching round on the site and found that a CCA would be no good, although I could SAR them. Not sure if this would benefit me or what to actually ask for to assist me.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

A SAR to show what if any charges have been applied would be of value.

[Abby25]

To clear things up a traditional CCA request for an OD will not produce a traditional CCA - as you would see with a credit card, loan etc.

 

However, when you were provided with the overdraft you WOULD (SHOULD) have received a letter of facility - this explains to you what the limit of your overdraft is, the interest rate (at the it has been agreed), how int rates may change, where they will be published, and the terms under which the bank may withdraw the od facility, etc.

 

So in essence, it is a CCA agreement, albeit not in the traditional format, and not requiring your signature.

Additionally each time your OD changed, i.e increased or decreased then the bank needed to send you a further letter of facility each time, showing the revised limit.There isn't as such a OD cca request letter, but I did send one, with a bit of tinkering.

Part V exemption (of the CCA74) relates to the requirement of the bank to provide a traditional cca agreement i.e one with the normal terms you would expect in a traditional CCA plus your signature.

 

Part V exemption (i.e the ability of the bank to just provide a letter of facility instead of a CCA) is LOST, if the bank does not with 3 months and 7 days of your exceeding the OD agreement (which would apply if they had completely withdrawn the facility), details of the interest rate you are being charged and other penalty charges. If the don't then whether they subsequently claim Part V exemption - it has been forfeited by their failure to adhere to the CCA74 which details both this requirement, and the resulting fallout if they don't.

 

The bank may claim part v exemption in their reply to your CCA request as an excuse to send you nothiing .. this is not correct, and I have explained what part v exemption relates to. So they don't send you copy letters of facility for ALL amendments to the account, then they are in breach of your request.

 

If they don't claim part v exemtion - they you expect a full cca, as they are not claiming that a full cca doesn't exist. I did have a bit of an arguement withsome over this, whereby they argued why would a bank not claim it and forfeith their right - but the facts of the CCA 74 regarding this are transparent, and are what they are.

 

Furthermore, any DN and termination notice must comply with the terms of CCA74 as well - think we all know what they are by now (although on a DN can be more awkward to argue). My approach is the more errors in their handling, responses to my request, handing of my complain, and duff DN - the more I will have in any defence reqd - which will hopefully worry them enough not to want to go the court route, for fear of a precedent being set if they lose.

 

 

Abby x

Edited July 6, 2011 by Abby25

[Kayyak]

I'm really trying to get my head around this and I think I understand and then I lose it. My comments in red.

 

To clear things up a traditional CCA request for an OD will not produce a traditional CCA - as you would see with a credit card, loan etc.

 

However, when you were provided with the overdraft you WOULD (SHOULD) have received a letter of facility - this explains to you what the limit of your overdraft is, the interest rate (at the it has been agreed), how int rates may change, where they will be published, and the terms under which the bank may withdraw the od facility, etc. Yes about 10 years ago

 

So in essence, it is a CCA agreement, albeit not in the traditional format, and not requiring your signature.

Additionally each time your OD changed, i.e increased or decreased then the bank needed to send you a further letter of facility each time, showing the revised limit.There isn't as such a OD cca request letter, but I did send one, with a bit of tinkering.

Part V exemption (of the CCA74) relates to the requirement of the bank to provide a traditional cca agreement i.e one with the normal terms you would expect in a traditional CCA plus your signature. Did you state this sentence?

 

Part V exemption (i.e the ability of the bank to just provide a letter of facility instead of a CCA) is LOST, if the bank does not with 3 months and 7 days of your exceeding the OD agreement (which would apply if they had completely withdrawn the facility), details of the interest rate you are being charged and other penalty charges. If the don't then whether they subsequently claim Part V exemption - it has been forfeited by their failure to adhere to the CCA74 which details both this requirement, and the resulting fallout if they don't. I have not received any notifications of the interest or charges which have been applied to my account in the last 2 years when I fell into difficulties. I thought they were all frozen until recently when I was looking at the figures and couldn't understand why the total amount had increased!!

 

The bank may claim part v exemption in their reply to your CCA request as an excuse to send you nothiing .. this is not correct, and I have explained what part v exemption relates to. So they don't send you copy letters of facility for ALL amendments to the account, then they are in breach of your request.

 

If they don't claim part v exemtion - they you expect a full cca, as they are not claiming that a full cca doesn't exist. I did have a bit of an arguement withsome over this, whereby they argued why would a bank not claim it and forfeith their right - but the facts of the CCA 74 regarding this are transparent, and are what they are.

 

Furthermore, any DN and termination notice must comply with the terms of CCA74 as well - think we all know what they are by now (although on a DN can be more awkward to argue). My approach is the more errors in their handling, responses to my request, handing of my complain, and duff DN - the more I will have in any defence reqd - which will hopefully worry them enough not to want to go the court route, for fear of a precedent being set if they lose. DN not received and account still with Natwest. Received a solicitors letter this week requesting higher payment, I&E sheet, offer of reduced settlement although I don't think I'll get it reduced by much as Natwest seem to want everything and more. Feel I need to reply though, I know it's just threatening but the next one may be worse.

 

 

Abby x

[Abby25]

Ok so you rec an initial letter of facility 10 yrs ago - has your od changed in this period, facility increased or reduced ? If so you should have recd a replacment letter of facility each time.

 

 

Don't tell them about Part V - let then raise it.

 

They don't have to tell you every change in the interest rate applied to unauthorised ods - this is displayed in branch, on the website, in newspapers. But they DO have to sent you with 3 mths and 7 days of you exceeding any agreement, confirmation that you are in breach and what the un authorised interest rate is (obv relevant at the the time the letter was issued), and what penalty fees you would now be incurring if you did not bring your account back into authorised waters.

 

 

Has your acct been registered as in default with CRAs ?

 

You don't have to send a sol your I&E only a Judge can command that - BUT if you don't want to go down the dispute route, it would be maybe beneficial for you to complete one. Make sure that any offer you make is affordable over the long term, so keep it manageable.

Abby x

[PriorityOne]

Abby is correct re. above posts and CCA 1974 part v exemption (or not). I've just had a reply from Natwest re. a friend's account that I'm sorting for her and they have not made any mention of part v exemption; just denied any responsibility under CCA 1974.

 

Very near-sighted, I think....

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

BLIND?

[PriorityOne]

BLIND?

 

Hopefully.... .

 

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

One hell of alot of guesties for Monday night:wave: