Another train fare penalty?

[oh!]

Hi,

 

I'm so sorry to post another one of these, I have read through the previous posts on the same topic but I am not sure if my situation will be different?

 

This morning I got caught at Manchester Oxford Road trying to get through a barrier with yesterdays ticket. I don't know why (massive queues, late for work, it's all excuses). Anyway, I got caught, interviewed by a Revenue protection inspector, cautioned and interviewed. In the interview I was asked standard questions and I answered that I did not intend to leave the station without paying, I had got confused, pulled a ticket out of my pocket and displayed it to the employee at the barrier. He asked me how would I have paid for the ticket had I have left the station and I said I would have brought a ticket (to get home) which is similar in price. I've got a horrible feeling I have shot myself in the foot in the interview, I wasn't rude or agressive and I cooperated and gave my correct details. But I now feel I may have been a bit passive about the whole thing and it is only since I've been reading on this forum. I understand the seriousness of the situation.

 

Anyway, suffice to say I am now beyond petrified about what is going to happen. I feel like I'm either going to start crying or I'm going to be sick. I have now felt like this for the past 4 hours. If I have to go to court, do I need to tell work? Will work sack me? Would I ever get another job with a criminal record? If I have to pay a fine will it still be a criminal record? I wish I had never done it and I would pay any amount of fine to stay out of court.

 

If anyone could offer any advice, I would be so grateful.

 

Many, many thanks.

[rebel11]

Hi Oh

 

Welcome to CAG

 

The guys will advise as soon as they are available. I would calm down, yep a mistake but not the end of the world.

[oh!]

Thank you.

[honeybee13]

Hello there and welcome from me too.

 

Listen, I know you're probably in shock because you've just realised the seriousness of what you did. But as the guys often say, this isn't the end of the world and we're not here to judge you. Bear with us until a guru or two is available from their day jobs and I'm sure you'll have some answers.

 

My best, HB

[oh!]

Thank you x

[Stigy]

As has been said, it's really not the end of the world. Unfortunately the staff aren't usually stupid, and you were more than likely reported because it was clear to them that you intended not to pay for your rail journey. Whether there's enough proof to levy a charge in court whereby it is established that you did intend to avoid payment of the rail fare, remains to be seen. Worst case scenario is you'll be charged under Section 5.3(a) Regulation of Railways Act 1889. This is a recordable offence meaning it can show up on the Police National Computer. You'll receive a fine of up typically around £350 depending on your circumstances, and a Criminal record. Chances are you employers wont sack you, and to be honest I'm not even sure you'd be required to tell them?

 

Middle of the road situation is that they charge you under a Byelaw offence (18.1 more than likely), which isn't recordable, but if found guilty you'll still receive a criminal conviction. Typically the fine you'll receive wont be as severe as that of the 5.3(a), and not record will be held on the PNC. You don't need to establish the intent to avoid payment for the latter charge, and it's always easier to prove.

 

Here's what I recommend you do. As I advise most people in your situation, write to the Train Company, when they write to you (if you do it before, chances are they wont know who you are or what you're talking about). Advise them that you're deeply sorry, and that you will never do such a thing again. Advise them that you are willing to pay all reasonable admin charges in order to stay out of court, too. They're not obliged to accept, but at least you can say you tried, if they refuse! You can't do anything until the Train Company contact you, which could take around 6-8 weeks I'm afraid.

 

I know it's easy for me to say, but try not to worry, these things seldom ruine lives!

[Wriggler7]

As to whether you need to 'tell' work, discreetly ask a staff rep or union rep for a copy of your conditions of service. Some employers will require some grades of staff to report the matter, some don't.

 

Normally, things like this only need to be reported at the point when it is certain that it is going to Court. At present, you simply don't know.

 

Difficult to give advice, we do not know all of the facts. Thinking back over my working life, I have had managers that I would have felt very safe to discuss it with, and I have had some that I would'nt tell what day it was. A decent, modern and properly trained manager should be approachable, and should be able to rationally listen to your problem with an open mind.

 

Try to keep it in perspective, dodging fares is not in the same league as armed robbery, and try to remain patient, there is not much that you can do about this until 'the railway' write to you.

[oh!]

That is really helpful, thank you. Does it matter that I was a bit passive in the interview? Will it be different that I tried to get through the barrier rather than just not having a ticket or is it all classed as fare evasion?

 

I have got a really nice line manager who would probably be really approachable, so at least that is one thing.

 

Thanks again for your help.

[Stigy]

That is really helpful, thank you. Does it matter that I was a bit passive in the interview? Will it be different that I tried to get through the barrier rather than just not having a ticket or is it all classed as fare evasion?

 

I have got a really nice line manager who would probably be really approachable, so at least that is one thing.

 

Thanks again for your help.

Judging by the fact that you knowingly tried to use an old ticket from what I gather, and had the gates have opened, I'm assuming that you would nopt have paid, then yes, it is fair evasion. As I said though, this all depends on how well written the report from the RPI is, what questions were put to you and how you answered them. The 5.3(a) I mentioned is a case of fare evasion, the 18.1 Byelaw also mentioned, isn't. Both still carry potential implications if breached though!

Edited February 16, 2011 by Stigy

[oh!]

Judging by the fact that you knowingly tried to use an old ticket from what I gather, and had the gates have opened, I'm assuming that you would nopt have paid, then yes, it is fair evasion. As I said though, this all depends on how well written the report from the RPI is, what questions were put to you and how you answered them. The 5.3(a) I mentioned is a case of fare evasion, the 18.1 Byelaw also mentioned, isn't. Both still carry potential implications if breached though!

 

I think this is what I am most worried about. I didn't realise or understand the seriousness of the situation so I didnt give much thought to my answers. I don't recall saying anything bad but I'm sure I could have answered better. The whole thing was really distracting because i was already late and it was rammed with people. Not that it makes much difference I still broke the law.

 

Oh what a total mess.

[Wriggler7]

Not a 'total mess'.

 

I would like to understand if you showed an out of date ticket 'coming in' to the station, or 'going out' of the station at the end of the journey. I am not sure if I have missed that point in your thread.

[Old-CodJA]

Wriggler7 asks an important question.

 

If you were trying to use an old ticket to get into the barrier to start your journey, it can be seen as an 'attempt to offend', but unless you were in a 'controlled ticket area' it is an allegation that needs a fair bit of work to run with in most instances.

 

If you had already travelled and completed your journey, which is how I read your post, and you attempted to use an invalid ticket to exit the ticket barrier and leave the station, then you have offended.

 

If that is the case, you will almost certainly get a letter from the TOC in due course and normally, this will give you a case reference number and will give you a chance to explain your actions before they make a final decision on whether to prosecute or not. In reality, you don't need to inform your employer of anything at this stage and will not need to do so unless you have been to Court and been convicted.

 

When you get that letter from the TOC, reply promptly to the office from which it was sent.

 

So far as establishing 'intent' is concerned, you say that you 'could have answered better' when you were questioned

 

There is no regulation that governs what questions can be asked, but in terms of good practice, the RPI ought to have asked one particular question. That is words to the following effect:

 

'I believe that if I had not challenged you, and if that old ticket had opened the gate, you would have left the station having not paid your fare. Do you agree?

 

If he asked a question something like that, how did you reply?

 

If you can remember how you responded, we may be able to help with a suggested response to the letter when it arrives

 

.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[oh!]

Hi, Sorry for the late reply.

 

I tried to use the ticket exiting from the train station. From what I can remember, the following is what took place.

 

Took details

Checked details

Read caution

Asked if I understood and I said yes

Then asked the following questions:

 

 

Do you agree you tried to use an out of date ticket to exit the barrier?

Yes I do agree.

 

Was it your intention to leave the station without paying for a ticket?

No, I got confused and thought I had the correct ticket in my pocket.

 

How would you have paid for a ticket had you have left the train station?

I don't know. (I should have stopped here) I would have had to have bought a ticket for the return journey and they are very similar in price. I think maybe a pound difference. (Not clever)

 

That's the point though is it?

No it's not.

 

Read through what I said. I signed the notebook he was writing in, as did he. He then said I'm free to go, I asked if I should pay for my ticket and he said "no, it's too late now". I was adament I should pay but he said no.

 

I also asked throughout the whole thing what was going to happen but he just kept saying I'll get a letter in the post. I also think there may have been some other questions but I can't remember.

 

I am still really really scared.

 

Thank you.

[Old-CodJA]

OK, that's pretty clear.

 

You admitted attempting to use an out of date ticket.

 

You inferred that you hadn't paid the fare before travelling and that you knew that a single and a cheap-day-return ticket were very similar in price.

 

The point is that the inspector established you did not show a valid ticket ( contrary to Byelaw 18.2 ) and that you had not purchased a valid ticket when facilities were available to you to do so before boarding a train ( contrary Byelaw 18.1 ). You had not shown any authority to travel nor been given any permission to do so without a valid ticket.

 

The minimal difference of fares if paid in advance is irrelevant so far as the liability is concerned.

 

The inspector is not obliged to accept the fare at that point and so far as his report is concerned, had established that you knew you should have paid, had not done so, did not show a valid ticket and he had collected some hard evidence to support the allegation that you attempted to use an invalid ticket to pass through the ticket check at the barrier.

 

When you get the letter from the TOC, make sure that you respond promptly.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[oh!]

So is it most likely I will be charged under 18.1? Or is there enough there for 5.3(a)?

 

Where my answers bad, do you think? Will a copy of the report be in the letter?

 

Do you reckon it will take 6 weeks? I don't think I can cope with 6 weeks of feeling like this.

 

Sorry for all the questions and thanks again for all your help.

[Old-CodJA]

I would have to have sight of the inspector's statement and any evidence to answer that question.

 

Like all the other users of the forum, we can only express an opinion based on the one side of the story that you provide. I'm not saying your story is inaccurate, just that we cannot give any assurances about anything. What action might be taken is at the rail company's discretion.

 

I cannot say how long it will be before you get a letter, it depends on how busy the office dealing with it is. It can take a few weeks sometimes

 

In the meantime, try to stop worrying, it isn't a capitol offence and in the scheme of life, it is something that can be overcome fairly easily by putting things into perspective.

[oh!]

ok, thank you. I am just worried about the effects on the rest of my life.

 

You guys are all so helpful, thank you.

[Maxwell TM]

I have to agree that offences such as these are not necessarily life shattering. However, any form of fare evasion does have the potential to land the offender with a criminal record. This can impact on everyday life, visa applications, home contents insurance, employment, study etc etc.

 

I am a Train Manager and deal frequently (often on a daily basis), with fare evaders. I can and do report offenders, but it saddens me to think of the worry and upset that are so often the consequence of a court appearance. However, I am also frustrated when the breast beating which so often accompanies the threat of prosecution, turns to arrogant indifference when cases are not pursued.

 

A read through some of the threads in this section will illustrate my point. Human nature perhaps, as bilking seems to have been an inherent part of the railway culture since the earliest days.

[Old-CodJA]

I am a Train Manager and deal frequently (often on a daily basis), with fare evaders. I can and do report offenders, but it saddens me to think of the worry and upset that are so often the consequence of a court appearance. However, I am also frustrated when the breast beating which so often accompanies the threat of prosecution, turns to arrogant indifference when cases are not pursued.

 

I agree that occasionally, conviction in these matters can have a serious impact on other areas of a travellers daily life, but having dealt with all levels of the prosecution process over the past 30 odd years, it is also frustrating to see how many of cases are not pursued because of the lack of attention to detail when the original reports are made and submitted.

[Wriggler7]

The poster asks if a charge is possible under section 5,3,a of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

 

Old Codja is being gentle when he describes that a Byelaw 18 charge is demonstrated, and absolutely right to say that without sight of the report, none of us can be certain.

 

For the benefit of all who may read this thread, if properly written, the Inspector, and therefore the prosecutor, should have no difficulty in proving the section 5,3,a offence.

 

The responsibility to pay a fare is pretty much down to the passenger. Having not paid, anything other than searching for someone to pay the fare to is 'wrong', and doing something (such as showing an out of date ticket) to get past the exit, aggravates the situation.

 

I often find myself trying to 'rescue' a situation. I am often frustrated that by the time issues are brought to me, the damage has been done. The best time to deal with payment for train travel is before going onto the platform to catch a train.

 

Yes, there are exceptions. There are stations in rural Norfolk or remote parts of Scotland where boarding without a ticket is allowed, but most issues that 'come my way' are in Essex where the service is frequent, the stations are open, and even when the service is running late, the passenger is likely to arrive on time, albeit on the late running service that they would normally have missed.

 

The comfort for the OP is that the 'worst effect' of a conviction for the more serious offence (5,3,a or 5,3,b) is not really life changing, unless you are a serial offender. Talking with c2c and LUL prosecutors of many years experience, none of them have known an offender to receive maximum sentence for avoiding rail fares. In my experience, the only 'fare dodgers' who end up in prison are the ones who also have convictions for 'other' offences.

[Maxwell TM]

I agree that occasionally, conviction in these matters can have a serious impact on other areas of a travellers daily life, but having dealt with all levels of the prosecution process over the past 30 odd years, it is also frustrating to see how many of cases are not pursued because of the lack of attention to detail when the original reports are made and submitted.

 

Personally, I try for the reasonable approach wherever possible. I do tell bilkers of the possible perils of fare avoidance and I do try to get them to cough up on train. Doesn't always work, but it is surprising how often I get successes.

 

I can certainly appreciate the frustrations of incorrectly completed reports. On our patch, we are lucky to have a fantastic RP team, but they can't be everywhere. In cases of blatant fare evasion, we do fill out reports, however, with safety of the train our paramount concern, it is sometimes difficult to capture all the details. We do do our best though and comparatively few reports fail at the initial stage.

 

From my very limited time spent perusing these threads, it seems that many offenders do not fully appreciate the implications of their actions. Whilst I am heartened to read the excellent advice which is so freely given by experts; perhaps we should not forget that many posters have been reported for criminal acts to which they openly admit. Is it such a bad thing that Mr X has a few sleepless nights after being nicked for using his great uncle's Freedom Pass? I'm not at all sure that it is.

[oh!]

Are you here to make me feel worse?

 

Thanks everyone for their advice. What you said, wriggler, was a bit of comfort. And I checked my work policies and I am unlikely to be fired for this, possibly a meeting with hr but that's it. So a tiny weight off my mind.

 

I'll be back soon with the report. Don't forget about me.

[Grotesque]

Is it such a bad thing that Mr X has a few sleepless nights after being nicked for using his great uncle's Freedom Pass? I'm not at all sure that it is.

 

Spot on. There's always remorse... having been found out.

But good luck to Oh!

 

Oh! dear Oh! dear Oh! dear eh lol

[oh!]

Hi,

 

I wanted to let you know that I received a letter from the prosecutions unit... but they just asked for a fine!

 

I just wanted to say thanks very much for your help and support.