a bit long winded *sorry* benefit fraud sentencing

[jadeybags]

It would be very fair to say that prison, for both the inmate and the visitor is a "unique" experience and not one either of us would really care to repeat.

 

Don't get me wrong - once everything was analysed, mistakes had been made and there was invariably (as there always is for us mere mortals) consequences for those mistakes, no matter how innocently made. Whether the consequences were fair, proportionate or not is a matter for debate.

 

We've just moved on from all this now, and I'm only just about feeling "up" to talking about it. As a couple, we've moved on, too. This is the kind of experience that will either kill a relationship or make it immeasurably stronger, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out which happened to us.

 

I can understand your attitude towards the LA totally. Just be aware though that they will not have closed your claim down - even though you have expressed a wish to no longer have the benefit, your claim will still be open, just not in payment. I found this to my horror when we had a lot of grief last year and I ended up having to make, then stop, then re-make an HB claim. However, that's not for this thread!

 

Thanks for the support. You, myself and my wife are as near-dammit the same age, BTW....

 

Count your blessings having a family to support you, and please don't envy us. My parents passed away a long time ago, and her mother essentially disowned her when all this happened, which left this little family unit out on their own. To say things have been "challenging" since would be an understatement.

 

Don't let them faze you or try and trip you up on 14th. Stick to your guns, stick to the facts and you'll be OK. I wish you luck.

 

For what it's worth, I think that you're cutting your nose off to spite your face if you don't claim the HB. The only people you're hurting by this is the very people that shouldn't be - you and the kids. You work, you pay tax and stamp, and you're entitled to some help with your housing costs. £120 a week may sound plenty to live on, but it doesn't go far these days and leaves nothing for any form of contingency - what happens if you suddenly need to find a pair of shoes or two, or a new school uniform? Claim what is rightfully yours, but make sure you keep copies of the claim form and any documentation you send in to them. If you have to communicate with them, do it in writing only - do not under any circumstances engage in a conversation on the phone with them unless you are recording the conversation. By not claiming this money, you aren't reducing this alleged overpayment.

 

I'm sure your Dad will prove a tower of strength on the day - some of these guys can be very intimating and try to twist your words or trip you up and someone else being present who isn't afraid to speak their mind if they detect unfairness might make all the difference.

 

I didn't stop the claim to stop any overpayments for this, I dont owe them any now, apart from 200 to council tax which they agreed to add on to my direct debits in the new finantial year. I hear what you're saying about cutting my nose off to spite my face, I have had numerous people say that. But even if you record, ask for names & kiss their behind, it seems you'll still have to go through this rigmarol of being guilty until you have proven innocent.

And for example, if you think about the police for instance, calling you in every year or so because they think you robbed someones house, when you know you can prove you didn't. But producing your proof & waiting months for them to believe that? Would you want to go through that besides your innocence?

I take my hat off to you if your experience hasn't put you off claiming any benefits. I admire you for that, very brave, I cant see it like that right now.

BUT I am not saying I wont change my mind in the future, once the dust has settled, I may have to, as you say 120 quid a week isn't a lot. But I will make sure if that times comes that I will be down there every month with my payslip/ statements/ all of it. Then checking with someone else that they have done it right. Oh & also plenty of Diazapam lol I dont cope with anxiety, I have about 20 pills in the cupboard, one will be used next thursday for sure, can you tell..

I think a good few million people know how bad it's getting now & will live in poverty rather than claim anything, that's why supposedly 16 billion goes unclaimed but at the end of the day now, that is the aim isn't it....

Here's an interesting paragraph..

Tax evasion, as Polly Toynbee pointed out (Comment, 4 September), costs the public purse over £15bn a year, as opposed to just over £1bn in benefit fraud. Senior tax inspectors on £50,000 bring in about £1.5m each and lower-level inspectors on £25,000 bring in £300,000: 10 times more than is recouped by Department for Work and Pensions fraud-chasers.

....um yeh....

Department of Work and Pensions estimates benefit fraud costs £1bn a year (p11).

 

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/how-much-does-benefit-fraud-cost/3423

Edited March 5, 2011 by jadeybags

[selfhelp]

It was really interesting to work through this thread. I've also experienced being accused of benefit fraud and I'll run through the experience to date, it's still ongoing. I separated from my partner in late 2007, in late 2008 work had completely dried up and I went through the DWP interview on the phone that takes an eternity. The sole intention was to register the previous main residence where my ex and 2 x dependants still lived in order that they were in receipt of the housing benefit, not me. I did what I'd always done and that was deal with these financial matters and issues and still do to a certain extent. I was paying poll tax and residing within another local authority until 2010 when I moved out and rented the place out to look after my mother who had a stroke.

 

I could not get my name off the previous main residence as there were arrears (now cleared) and the lender would not entertain it due to the ex wife's income. I only had technical ownership. The idea of jointly and severally liable gets called into question. Take for an example a serial philanderer who buys a property with a series of lovers from county to county, technically he's liable for all these properties, bit extreme but I think you get the correlation.

 

I never claimed any benefits whatsoever such as job seekers etc etc. This was totally alien to me and I thought if I signed on I would fall into a spiral, so I worked through it and managed, by my fingernails, to hang on to everything and I am still dealing with creditors although there is now light at the end of the tunnel. The real issue here is that those that make these decisions and pursue are typically pen pushers with a chip on their shoulder.

 

There has to be some regulatory body or review body that has to see that the process currently is fundamentally unfair and unjust. Those typically being pursued have been disadvantaged and suffered especially through the recession. It reminds me of no more than a kangaroo court. I don't think it will ever happen but there needs to be an arbitrary process further to the local authority and prior to court where decisions can be made and if necessary any local authority decision overturned. The other problem is that the local authorities are now in bed with the revenue which gives them an added sense of self importance. Local authority cuts must also play a role. The figures I had back from the local authority were simply pulled from a hat, I asked them to justify the figures but oddly enough they've come back with nothing.

 

My case has now been ongoing for a year and all for the princely and disputed sum of @ £2k. I've even offered to pay a negotiated settlement figure without prejudice and/or admitting liability just to make them go away irrespective that I don't even owe the money. However they're not there to negotiate or reason and getting excited about these potential 'fraud' cases is their reason d'etre. I have showed them possession orders, arrears, CCJ's and asked them to apply common sense but it fell on deaf ears.

 

Regards solicitors from my experience of them over the past few years they'll tell you they can act for you then once you're sat down with them they'll tell you no more than you already know and all for £200 an hour. While I appreciate we can't be seen to be referring a solicitor or recommending it would be a good idea to perhaps put forward a few names of solicitors along with experience of same. If someone has had a genuinely good experience with an approachable and amenable legal entity, along with a degree of success, then it would be good to post to the board. I'll post back on how this ends up.

[patnay]

I have read your story and I am in a similar position as I am facing charges of Benefit fraud for the amount of £60000 between 2000 and 2011.I was in an abusive relationship with someone who has now been diagnosed with a personality disorder.During that time we lived together and I claimed for him as a dependant because he would continually disappear with our money.Before that when it was paid to him,he kept the housing benefit and we were threatened with eviction,so I claimed for HIM so I could get housing benefit in my name thus securing a tenancy for myself.To cut a long story short I started working part time 7 hours a week for months then it went up a bit more.He in the meantime got us in a load of debt,so even though I was working I wasnt gaining anything at all.Because it was cash in hand I didnt declare it,thus leading me into a vicious circle.I was totally ignorant of the fact that I was entitled to tax credits,and it is only now that I am claiming them.I am no longer with this parasite and I take full responsibility for the mess I am in.Ironically my tax credits are more than my wage(I still work at the same place}.As you can imagine I am so worried about the outcome.Could someone answer this question for me will they take into account the amount of tax credits I would have been entitled to during that period but didnt claim when all this goes to Crown Court?I let it go on for so long because I was more or less intimidated by him.He would threaten to tell the Social I was working if I didnt give him any money etc,etc and it was only in 2009 that I got the courage to leave him and I am still recieving demands from various debtors for him that I knew nothing about.I dont want sympathy just advice if anyone can give me any.No amount of money is worth the shame that I am going through now,but at least I have gained something from this I have learned a hard lesson

[selfhelp]

Patnay

In my case what I found was that the LA are there to protect other tax payers and as such you can not take them to court, however this doesn't make them above the law. However there is the Local Government Ombudsman you can go to once a complaints process has been exhausted via the LA. Are you in a mortgaged property or rented/council accommodation. If you were in a vulnerable position then the LA are duty bound to take an objective view.

[CRH71]

I'd go and take some legal advice if I were you - find yourself a lawyer with Benefits knowledge - ideally a Benefits Specialist lawyer. A "normal" criminal lawyer will lack the necessary knowledge to be able to assist you effectively. You need to find yourself said solicitor rapidly.

 

They will not take into account any underlying entitlements (as the T/C will be called) - it's not in their nature to do so. You, and your lawyer, will have to raise this point with them and calculate the underlying entitlement. This is likely to make a significant difference to your alleged "overpayment".

 

It might be prudent to get the rates of benefits for the years concerned (TC's weren't about in 2000, if I recall) and calculate your own underlying entitlement - it's likely to be fairly significant if you were only working a little bit and your 'partner' was unemployed.

 

However, you have got a little bit of a sticky situation insofar as you have declared this work was "cash in hand" and not declared - that point will be picked up on by the Prosecution and they'll use that as additional evidence that the fraud was deliberate, pre-planned and long-term which will not look good on you in Court - especially Crown.

 

The matters of the parasite and his actions upon you are fairly strong mitigating circumstances and need to be raised with your brief. If this is going to Crown (likely, with the alleged amount involved) then you'll be entitled to Legal Aid if you're on benefits and will most likely end up with a barrister to represent you.

 

If there's any help or advice you would like from me, please feel free to take it offline of the thread and PM me - for obvious reasons I can't say too much on a public thread like this.

 

Definitely, definitely get a lawyer - a good one at that. Soon.

[patnay]

Thanks for your reply just telling someone has helped me.I do have a lawyer and have already been to the Magistrates Court but no plea has been entered because I am disputing the amount.,and yes its going to Crown Court.I only had cash in hand for a few weeks then went on the "Books""at work using my maiden name.I suppose secretly I hoped to be called in any time to sort this mess but I never was.I can get my details from work regarding how much I earned each year to find out about tax credits I was entitled to,my boss is fully supportive of me.I have been in touch with housing benefit overpayments because I have been told that my ex will be liable for council tax overpayment whilst he lived with me so that will decrease the amount as well.I still have limited contact with him and he is now making threatening calls to me and my place of work because I blame him for a lot of this and he knows that I will be revealing his abuse as part of my defence. so I am logging all this down.I dont know how to message you privately as it says I must have 15 posts but once again thanks for your advice CHR71 I will keep you informed privately as soon as I can

[CRH71]

Thanks for your reply just telling someone has helped me.I do have a lawyer and have already been to the Magistrates Court but no plea has been entered because I am disputing the amount.,and yes its going to Crown Court.I only had cash in hand for a few weeks then went on the "Books""at work using my maiden name.I suppose secretly I hoped to be called in any time to sort this mess but I never was.I can get my details from work regarding how much I earned each year to find out about tax credits I was entitled to,my boss is fully supportive of me.I have been in touch with housing benefit overpayments because I have been told that my ex will be liable for council tax overpayment whilst he lived with me so that will decrease the amount as well.I still have limited contact with him and he is now making threatening calls to me and my place of work because I blame him for a lot of this and he knows that I will be revealing his abuse as part of my defence. so I am logging all this down.I dont know how to message you privately as it says I must have 15 posts but once again thanks for your advice CHR71 I will keep you informed privately as soon as I can

 

It is important to get some protection for yourself, as well - report these abusive and harrassing phone calls and don't let the bully win. Please report these to the Police.

 

Entering "No Plea" was a way to get this to Crown, and get you some good representation. Make sure that representation has got Benefit knowledge and experience - this will become increasingly important going forwards, listen to them and take their advice. A criminal lawyer at this stage may work to your disadvantage. This needs specialist knowledge.

 

I really do wish you luck. I feel for you, truly I do.

[patnay]

This is just an update really on the last thread regarding my imminent court appearance for benefit fraud.I appeared at Mold Crown and was sentenced to 10 months imprisonment.I had an exemplary probation report but to no avail.Thankfully I only had to serve 10 weeks in Styal, I was released last week on tag.What a nightmare.Now I have the problem that my job is still available to me (nights) but my curfew wont allow it so I have to claim benefits until I can return to work!!Im still in trauma and my poor family went through hell but it is over now Thank God.Thanks for your advicex

[Nystagmite]

What a nightmare for you!

[bio]

Like you said earlier, you have learned a hard lesson......

[abc123def]

I wonder how the OP got on?

[gregbythesea]

I'll add my tuppence. I pleaded guilty to benefit fraud from the outset when questioned by the police after being arrested in a dawn raid at my home.

 

We were so short of money, I mean really short - couldn't pay any bills and the home was under threat of being taken off us.

The children were both under 5 at the time.

 

The business I was running was losing money hand over fist, but I just hung in there hoping that somehow I could turn it round.

 

After not being able to buy any food shopping one weekend I decided to claim JSA Income based. I failed to tell them about the business as I couldn't see the reason as it wasn't making any money irrespective of how many hours I worked in it. All of the takings were going out in rent and overheads/costs.

 

Anyhow after about 18 months I got copped by the Social for working and claiming. I admitted it all and showed them that the business had not made any money for the past 18 months although I was working upwards of 40 hours a week in it.

 

Eventually Regina decided to move it to Crown Court due to the amount involved - about £13,000. Some 8 months later I went to Crown pleaded guilty, was told by the Judge that I was a 'parasite on society' and was sent down for 6 months and order to repay the £13,000.

 

I served half of my sentence inside. When I came out, the house had been taken, and all of my goods had been siezed by the bailiffs for other debts.

 

Back to now, I am still having a third of my benefits taken off me and I try to survive. We were home less and slept anywhere throughout one winter.

Still owe £1,000's with no hope of ever getting a job as an ex con.

 

So yes, they destroyed my wife's life, my children's lives. They were simply the collateral damage that came with what I did.

 

Now I only have the ability to cause aggravation and annoyance to the DWP left in me.

At least one little bit of me knows that it is costing the DWP/Government £1,000's in extra time spent trying to untangle things I do with my claims for benefits as well as to take every decision made by the DWP to the Tribunal which I know also costs them £1,000's

I never win, but the feeling of using up their money gives me a bigger satisfaction.

 

I have no idea how much it has cost the government so far but it must be getting on for over £10,000. When I feel that i have reached the £13,000 mark, I'll knock it on the head.

It's my only way of hitting back at them for failing to see that I had no choice, had no income and fell foul of only the 16 hour working rule.

 

Looking back now, I could have claimed WTC and probably would have been no worse off than JSA. But I didn't know I could, and no one told me what to do.

Edited August 19, 2012 by gregbythesea

[Nystagmite]

If your business was making no money, you also had the option of council tax benefit and housing benefit.

[gregbythesea]

If your business was making no money, you also had the option of council tax benefit and housing benefit.

 

Housing benefit was not an option as our home at the time was on a mortgage.

 

I did claim Council Tax Benefit, and was up front with them all the way. Even to the point of proving that the business was not earning us any money. They have never prosecuted. It seems that I was entitled to it due to low income, shame the DWP couldn't see it that way!

 

All of their argument was about signing on as available for work when I wasn't as I was working full time in the business. They never once disagreed with the fact that I was entitled to help due to having no income, they only concerned themselves that claiming JSA wasn't the correct way of going about it.

 

I did try the CAB at the time but could never get in to see them. I actually asked when I made the telephone JSA claim if having a non earning business would be a problem and was told it wasn't so I never bothered to enter it.

 

Nobody ever mentioned the 16 hour rule to me or any other method of trying to get some money coming in.

[CRH71]

This is just an update really on the last thread regarding my imminent court appearance for benefit fraud.I appeared at Mold Crown and was sentenced to 10 months imprisonment.I had an exemplary probation report but to no avail.Thankfully I only had to serve 10 weeks in Styal, I was released last week on tag.What a nightmare.Now I have the problem that my job is still available to me (nights) but my curfew wont allow it so I have to claim benefits until I can return to work!!Im still in trauma and my poor family went through hell but it is over now Thank God.Thanks for your advicex

 

Thanks for the update, and welcome back!

 

If you can prove the job is still available to you, then you can get permission from Styal to vary the curfew hours - they are unlikely to refuse such a request because of the rehabilitation that working will give you. Give them a ring and ask - there's a specialist department for it (the HDC Department) that deals with this kind of request and you'll receive a favourable response, I think.

 

Very, very well done on being able to keep your job - something that's normally very difficult when there's a conviction in the mix. If you need insurance (you'll find you're excluded from the 'main market' - read the T's and C's before signing up - they all exclude unspent convictions - even if the proposer is not the one with the conviction) then a company I found through UNLOCK (unlock.org) in Peterborough quoted some very sensible rates indeed and offered good value cover.

 

UNLOCK is worth joining, too for support - every member there is in the same boat as you and there's a lot of advice there to help you get back on your feet.

 

NACRO is also worth joining (both freebies), too - plenty of work-related support on there.

 

Best of luck.

[jadeybags]

This thread is the most heartbreaking on this site I have seen. I know it's pointless saying it but I will anyway, but why are these people doing prison time when others that knowingly defraud tax credits for even way more don't even get to the point of an interview under caution let alone court? I rarely come on here now as this & this alone bothers me. I signed into my old email account & had an email about an update to this thread.

I can't also fathom how someone has to pay back thousands when they can prove they made no income from their business whilst they were claiming these benefits fraudulently.

The whole system is completely ass about face???

And I am also glad of this ..'I have no idea how much it has cost the government so far but it must be getting on for over £10,000. When I feel that i have reached the £13,000 mark, I'll knock it on the head.'

Have tears in my eyes reading these last few posts. It all sucks.