Discrimination etc

[karuspery]

June 2008 I started with a billion Euro multi national.

 

I found I was physically and mentally weakening and took a lot of sick leave.

 

Work sent me to Occupational Docs and I explained myself and was examined.

 

I continued to become more ill.

 

Eventually, on the verge of suicide etc. I begged my doctor to find out what was wrong with me.

 

He took my blood on a hunch and discovered I had a brain tumour.

 

MRI scan confirmed I had a macro Prolactinoma and it was massive but totally treatable over time.

How long? I cannot get a definitive answer but it looks 3-5 years.

 

A year on I had to return to work because I had no benefits etc and the first day back,

I was ignored by my collegues and one actually accused me of taking the ****.

 

I tried to explain myself but was just sworn at and shouted down.

The entire staff seemed against me and I was immediately moved to another department and they weren't happy with my prescence either.

 

I put in a grievance.

 

Investigation took place and I stated that all I wanted was to be happy and be allowed to recuperate.

Workmates weren't happy.

 

Meanwhile, I make sausages as a hobby and used to give some to various people at work and also sold some at work-about £25 worth because people ordered them.

 

I thought nothing of this as other collegues sell rabbits that they've shot, fish they have caught,chocolates and knock off clothing.

 

3 months from my grievance they charged me with gross misconduct and suspended me. This really set me back immensely.

 

I was given a final written warning valid for 12 months but my health and well being really took a beating.

 

Told the doc what had happened and he booked me off. My consultant also saw the change in me and said I had depression.

 

I have put in another grievance against management for not dealing with my situation properly.

 

Ignored and now they want to dismiss me on medical grounds.

 

I am still in a lot of pain and I am still depressed over being a social outcast at work. Any ideas?

 

They have requested my med records now but I am reluctant to give them my permission.

 

By the way, had my condition been diagnosed when I first displayed symptoms,

I would have probably been healed by now but because the docs hadn't detected it,

the disease really caused mayhem in my body and mind.

 

I can honestly say that I would have preferred to have been crushed and spent 10 months in hospital than this horrible disease.

 

It has cost me dearly.

[postggj]

is this an outside occupational health subcontracted to your company???

 

i have personal experience with a well known occupational health company who are far from qualified to give a diagnosis and get away with it by calling themself

 

health care advisors

 

has your grievance been delt with by way of a formal/informal hearing

[karuspery]

The company is XXXXX. My initial grievance was dealt with formally but relaxed by the Plant Manager and I agreed that we would hold a meeting with my collegues to try and get them to see sense. I was very amiable about it all because I trusted them then. They didn't see sense and I am a complete idiot in their eyes. The second grievance has not been dealt with at all. The HR manager offered me money to leave twice now. I also recorded most conversations and the disciplinary enquiry because I do not trust these evil people. They also have not looked into the allegations I have made about others selling goods at work where even managers have bought stuff etc. Definitely a stitch up this but I am weak and vulnerable.

Edited January 14, 2011 by 42man
Edited due to naming company

[postggj]

sorry to be a bore

 

do you have a trade union rep

[karuspery]

I have no income and can't afford the subs so my membership lapsed. Besides, the union reps don't seem much use. When I went back to work I rejoined the union but it lapsed again last month-no income. GMB union.

[postggj]

have they offered reasonable renumeration if you are medical discharged

 

sorry for the 20 questions

[karuspery]

I'm not at all bothered by your questions and thank you for any help or advice you might have for me. They offered me a months pay if I resign now. The HR manager said that they are going to look at medically dismissing me because I cannot fulfill my duties as contracted. Nothing in writing as yet. They have requested me to allow access to my medical records. The next step will be a medical assessment and dismissal I am sure.

[postggj]

Its important now that any further interviews etc are in the presense of a collegue etc

 

you are entitled to this

 

the thing to look at is are the employeer being reasonable

 

as you have been at work over 12 months then you have employment rights

 

demand the latest grievance be delt with

 

to begin with it might be worth you giving acas a call , they are excellent in these matters

 

going back to the start of your illness, what was the response from your doctor (gp)

[karuspery]

Initially my GP referred me to the endocrinologists who still see me every 3 months to assess my progress. I will see my GP again next week where he will assess my pain levels etc and probably book me off for a further 4 weeks. My Endocrinologist has requested that I receive some support with a counsellor because of the negative impact on my mental health.

[SarEl]

There seems to be some confusion here.

 

In the first place, it is not the role or responsibility of Occupational Health to make diagnoses, and in the absence of a medical diagnosis, all they could ever have done was give some advice to the employer about your symptoms. In this matter, neither OH nor the employer have done anything wrong, and it was always your responsibility to seek medical advice from your GP if you felt that there was something more seriously wrong - as there was. It was never up to OH to diagnose you, and therefore it is not their fault that you were not diagnosed earlier - the fault, if there is any, lies with the GP if they knew about your symptoms and failed to act appropriately on them.

 

Secondly, there are two separate issues here in relation to your situation, and I can see no way in which you can evidence that they are linked. The first is the disciplinary. You admit that you did what you were accused of - the disciplinary warning was therefore an appropriate response by the employer. It may be true that they have not taken similar action against other employees - but you will struggle to even prove that other employees have done similar things in the first place, and you cannot possibly prove that the employer has never taken any such disciplinary action because their discipinary records are confidential. To suggest that this is discrimination is never going to be proveable, and quite apart from anything else, whilst this is not my area of law, so I cannot be certain about this, I believe that selling (as opposed to giving away) prepared food products without a licence is illegal, because there is no quality control and no checks on hygiene or food standards. I am happy if someone can correct me on that - but these laws are the reason why charities and schools are no longer able to use the old traditional "baking a cake" fund-raising type activity.

 

In relation to your grievances, you say that the forst one was dealt with by the employer. You may not have liked the outcome, but you did agree to it being handled in the way it was, so that matter was, in the yes of the law, satisfactorily settled. Your second grievance has not been heard, but since you are off sick, that is not uncommon and does not really constitute a smoking gun, since the employer can defend their position by saying (and it may even be true!) that they cannot proceed whilst you are off sick with a serious condition, and they have been unable to ascertain, since they are awaiting your medical records, whether you are fit enough to proceed.

 

The matter of the capability is therefore, based on the information you have provided here, quite separate. If a person, even one with a disability, is unable to return to work or has lengthy periods of sickness, it is certainly within the law for the employer to assess whether they can continue to employ that person. If you refuse to provide access to your medical records, then they may base their decision on assumptions that you will continue to be off sick for lengthy periods, and provided they follow a proper procedure, they may fairly dismiss you in law. However, if yyou do provide access to your records, it will then depend on what they say. OH will have to assess your doctors opinion about your ability to work in the future and the prospects of your returning to work and ability to perform your job - with reasonable adjustments if they can be identified. From what you say, this may be questionable, and it is likley that your own doctors are unlikley to be able to give an assurance of your ability to work for some considerable time to come. At which point the employer may decide to dismiss, and if they can evidence haviinf followed a fair process, then they will be able to do so fairly in law.

[karuspery]

Although I can manage to give you credit for your almost partisan view as a useful tool for employers, I have to agree, you are not an expert in employment law. You have missed some very glaring procedural irregularities and breaches of EU law. What I have experienced is not acceptable in any civil society and if it is allowed then I have to believe that there is no justice Britain. I'm sure you know this so you must be partisan. I must have the right to redress in a Crown court ,if my human rights have been infringed upon and they have. No company may discriminately apply their policy. I have proof that they did and do behave like this. I also have some very damning video evidence of severe corruption at my work. All I did wrong was to get a brain tumour. Employment tribunal is nonesense. Time contraints etc. What a farce. Go to the proper courts and appeal up to the highest authority as necessary.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Karuspey -

 

You may not like what SarEl has to say, but I think you will find that as an employment law barrister who works solely for employees, the advice she gives based upon the information provided is likely to be the best you'll get without paying for counsel's opinion. No-one here is judging you, and good dispassionate advice is likely to be far more useful than well-meaning bad advice.

 

Please remember - civility to all.

[MrBlack]

Karuspery,

 

I think the trouble here (and possibly a common theme that runs through any post where the person seeking advice seems to become offended by the advice given) is that you clearly have a serious medical condition that has caused you a great deal of stress and anxiety in of itself, exacerbated by your perceived lack of compassion from your work colleagues, and you are looking for an appropriate emotional reply. Your emotional post has received, in your eyes, an unemotional response.

 

There is a good reasons for this.

 

You can assume that most people here are of a reasonable intelligence and that they are empathic and compassionate regarding the way these issues effect you emotionally. However, it is in the nature of this forum to cut through all that emotion and attempt to ascertain the facts. Those facts, when isolated, will enable people like SarEl to offer sound advice based on a wealth of experience. This is not attempting to dilute the depth of your feeling on the matter - we see that and understand it - but (and I know this can be hard) it would benefit you more if you attempted to view your situation objectively. Sarel is right when she identifies that the act of you selling food items in the work place is a separate issue to your long standing medical complaint. In your eyes, it is all part of the bigger picture. That may be, and to you, understandably so, but you have no concrete evidence that the act of your employer in charging you with gross misconduct because you sold sausages in the workplace is irretrievably connected to their apparent lack of understanding regarding your brain tumour.

 

I appreciate you are going through a very difficult period and that your illness may be clouding your judgement from time to time, but take a little step back and view the advice given here from SarEl with fresh eyes. She, and anyone else here who offers advice, are just trying to help.

[SarEl]

Although I can manage to give you credit for your almost partisan view as a useful tool for employers, I have to agree, you are not an expert in employment law. You have missed some very glaring procedural irregularities and breaches of EU law. What I have experienced is not acceptable in any civil society and if it is allowed then I have to believe that there is no justice Britain. I'm sure you know this so you must be partisan. I must have the right to redress in a Crown court ,if my human rights have been infringed upon and they have. No company may discriminately apply their policy. I have proof that they did and do behave like this. I also have some very damning video evidence of severe corruption at my work. All I did wrong was to get a brain tumour. Employment tribunal is nonesense. Time contraints etc. What a farce. Go to the proper courts and appeal up to the highest authority as necessary.

 

I would suggest that in future, when you post, you make it clear up front that you do not want correct legal advice, you only want opinions that agree with yours. This will save many of us a great deal of time wasted on advice you do not want.

 

Ranting is not law - you have not, in your posts, evidenced any procedural irregularities or breach of EU law; nobody (and certainly not I) said that this was "fair" - but it is lawful; you have evidenced no infringement of your human rights; not have you evidenced any discrimination. Alleged corruption has absoluitely nothing to do with any alleged case based on your sickness - that is an entirely sperate matter. If you fail to go to a tribunal, whatever your opinion of them is, then you will have no employment case in any court of law - there is a procedure, it starts at tribunal, and you do not get to vary that simply because it does not suit you.

 

You may not like my advice, but it is not partisan and I find your comments and method of response deliberately offensive. If you do not want people to give you advice then it would be sensible not to use a public forum - get a lawyer. Although they will, based on the same facts, tell you exactly what I have told you. Whether I sympathise with your personal situation is neither here nor there - the law does not operate based on sympathy, but on the law. My advice stands without any changes - you can like it or lump it.

[honeybee13]

Karuspery, have you spoken to the EHRC [equality and human rights people]? They should be able to help you ascertain whether you have a case in law or not. Of course, they may disagree with you, which is a risk you run when you ask for impartial advice.

 

HB

[teaboy2]

Sadly being an employer myself i have to say that SarEL is correct going by what information you have provided so far. Not sure about the selling of food though, as i believe the new regulations only apply to premises that sell homemade food commerically, hence charity shops. As far as am aware schools fates are still able to sell food as they already have the necessary certificates and legal documents in order for them to sell school diners, and its never been illegal (as far as am aware) to sell homemade food privately to friends or colleagues, if it is then my mum's guilty of it lol

 

Although i have to say if you were disciplined for gross misconduct purely for selling food privately to your colleagues and your colleagues that were also selling food were not disciplined. Then you could say that they made an example off you or had intentionally singled you out as an example to what will happen to others selling food on work premises, though it be very difficult to prove and highly unlikley to get you anywhere. Although back in the days when i was just an employee, the company i worked for took disciplinary action against me for taking time off sick, even though my attendance record was better than most, for that sepcific period of time. As a result i was dismissed, even though i had only ever been previously given a verbal warning which i never received written notification off and was over 12 months previous. So i took them to tribunal for victimization (for being singled out by a supervisor constantly over a period of time on seperate issues, prior disciplinary action) and unlawful dismissal for failing to follow correct disciplinary procedures. which i won and got my job back.

 

So my question to you is, did anyone else selling food get disciplined for it and did they follow the correct disciplinary procedures as stated in your contract and were they inline with stautory disciplinary procedures? you can find info to them here: http://www.tssa.org.uk/article-46.php3?id_article=1752 or on the Acas website.

 

Also if it was not for selling the food that they disciplined you for, then what was it exactly?

[papasmurf1cx]

Hi karuspery

 

A couple of things you said worry me. First, what is it that makes you think that you have been discriminated against. Often posters feel they have been discriminated against, and they possibly have been, but fail to explain the evidential link between the illness and the actions the company / employees have taken against them because they knew of the illness. It is helpful if things were done in writing eg sick / fit notes, what was written on them for example. Letters to and from the company and then detrimental actions / events that took place before or after written communications. Connect the events.

 

Next, why have you not received benefits? From what you have said Incapacity Benefit and DLA seem pretty high up on a list as well as others eg Housing Benefit??? What did you apply for?

 

Next, did you put in a Grievance in regard to an issue of Discrimination? If you did what type of discrimination... disability I assume as you are talking about health issues? If you did not why not?

 

The issue of the sausages is a bit of a red herring, so to speak.

 

"Knocked Off" goods being sold........ are you sure about this? And if so why are you not informing the Police about this unlawful activity? If management are buying stolen property and this is being done in work time and work premises, then this is most concerning.

 

Lastly..... I would be careful in mentioning names of employers post 3, and advise that you edit it asap. I have informed the Mods, so this may be done by them.

[meekmeek]

we all sympathise with your medical condition but for this employment matter can you put the fact that you are in pain aside for the moment and answer some questions

1. has anyone insulted you about you being disabled or mentioned your medical issue in a negative manner

2. are they disciplining you for the sausages or for the fact that you dont do your job

3. if job related what were you achieving before diagnoses [or other colleagues currently achieving] that they say you are no longer achieving since diagnoses job capability wise

4. has the employer offered you assistance in the form of allowing for small breaks to take medication or a aparatus to help with being more productive

 

i have a disability myself but if i was accused of selling illegal property or food stuffs that were not allowed on the premises i would not argue the "im disabled" garbage - as thats unrelated

and if i too was off for over a year i would find is a blessing that the employer has held my position open for me to return to and not found a replacement already

 

please answer the questions above to enable us to help you the best way possible

[SarEl]

Just out of interest, I checked with a friend - there are European regulations which are law regarding the selling of processed foods, including a requirement to register with and be inspected by the local council. Even if someone is below the threshold for having to register, there are significant risks to selling processed foods which could result in the seller being sued and could possibly extend to anyone who allowed processed foods to be sold on their premises. The potential for health and safety breaches in the storing and preparation of produce, the risk of (unlabelled) ingrediants which are either not permitted in resale or to which people may be allergic etc. It is something of a minefield and could, at the very least, end up with someone being sued. For this reason, apart from anything else, allowing processed foods to be sold on your premises could invalidate your insurance policy.