Worried please help/ British Transport Police

[the_doc]

Hi

 

I have recieved a summons from the BTP stating I have broken a byelaw , 'soiled rail property', basically I was a bit drunk and had a wee in the wrong toilet (womans baby changing toilet).

 

As I have been advised it is not a recordable offence I have written a letter of apology explaining 'it was moment of madness and I have never been in trouble before (which is true)

 

There is a witness statement and CCTV and I believe I recieved a caution

 

1. Is the advise that issue is not recordable sound?

2. In my letter I have asked for the case to be dealt in my absence as I cannot get off work (but obviosuly will if I have to) - is this wise?

3. I am terrified that if I go to the court the magistrate will realise I was obviously drunk and the charges might get changed to D&D is this plausable/likely? legal? surely I would have to be notified first ?

 

I really just want to get this over with I have learned my lesson thats for sure - so worried as work in banking

 

Please help ...

[rebel11]

Hi doc

 

Welcome to CAG

 

The guys will advise as soon as they are available.

[the_doc]

can anyone help with this ...

 

Hi

 

I have recieved a summons from the BTP stating I have broken a byelaw , 'soiled rail property', basically I was a bit drunk and had a wee in the wrong toilet (womans baby changing toilet).

 

As I have been advised it is not a recordable offence I have written a letter of apology explaining 'it was moment of madness and I have never been in trouble before (which is true)

 

There is a witness statement and CCTV and I believe I recieved a caution

 

1. Is the advise that issue is not recordable sound?

2. In my letter I have asked for the case to be dealt in my absence as I cannot get off work (but obviosuly will if I have to) - is this wise?

3. I am terrified that if I go to the court the magistrate will realise I was obviously drunk and the charges might get changed to D&D is this plausable/likely? legal? surely I would have to be notified first ?

 

I really just want to get this over with I have learned my lesson thats for sure - so worried as work in banking

 

Please help ...

[the_doc]

Thanks mate

[Old-CodJA]

can anyone help with this ...

 

Hi

 

I have recieved a summons from the BTP stating I have broken a byelaw , 'soiled rail property', basically I was a bit drunk and had a wee in the wrong toilet (womans baby changing toilet).

 

As I have been advised it is not a recordable offence I have written a letter of apology explaining 'it was moment of madness and I have never been in trouble before (which is true)

 

There is a witness statement and CCTV and I believe I recieved a caution

 

1. Is the advise that issue is not recordable sound?

2. In my letter I have asked for the case to be dealt in my absence as I cannot get off work (but obviosuly will if I have to) - is this wise?

3. I am terrified that if I go to the court the magistrate will realise I was obviously drunk and the charges might get changed to D&D is this plausable/likely? legal? surely I would have to be notified first ?

 

I really just want to get this over with I have learned my lesson thats for sure - so worried as work in banking

 

Please help ...

 

Don't panic. Whilst not a very savoury performance, it isn't a 'hanging' offence

 

The caution to which you refer will probably be that, in accordance with reporting under PACE(84) you will have been spoken to by the reporting officer in the following terms:

 

'You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention, when questioned, something that you may later rely on in Court.

 

Anything that you do say may be given in evidence, do you understand the caution?'

You will then have been asked some questions and the questions and your answers written down, which will provide the basis of the witness statement.

 

1. The breach of Byelaw is a strict liability matter, you have been correctly advised, it is not a recordable offence

 

2. You are looking at the likelihood of a fine and may be ordered to pay the prosecution costs. In my opinion, if you genuinely cannot get time off to go to the Court and say 'Sorry' in person, then you ought to write an aopolgetic letter to the Court, explain that you had a little too much to drink and made an uncharacteristic error whilst your judgement was impaired by alchohol

 

3. The charge before the Court is that for which you have been Summonsed. You haven't been charged with D&D and that isn't their call in this instance. They are simply being asked to judge your culpability for the offence for which you have been accused.

 

 

Good luck

[Old-CodJA]

I see that you have posted this query on two separate threads. I have copied my reply to this one too, but it does help avoid confusion if we try to stick to one place for Q&A on here. Anyway, here's my opinion for what it's worth

 

Don't panic. Whilst not a very savoury performance, it isn't a 'hanging' offence

 

The caution to which you refer will probably be that, in accordance with reporting under PACE(84) you will have been spoken to by the reporting officer in the following terms:

 

'You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention, when questioned, something that you may later rely on in Court.

 

Anything that you do say may be given in evidence, do you understand the caution?'

You will then have been asked some questions and the questions and your answers written down, which will provide the basis of the witness statement.

 

1. The breach of Byelaw is a strict liability matter, you have been correctly advised, it is not a recordable offence

 

2. You are looking at the likelihood of a fine and may be ordered to pay the prosecution costs. In my opinion, if you genuinely cannot get time off to go to the Court and say 'Sorry' in person, then you ought to write an aopolgetic letter to the Court, explain that you had a little too much to drink and made an uncharacteristic error whilst your judgement was impaired by alchohol

 

3. The charge before the Court is that for which you have been Summonsed. You haven't been charged with D&D and that isn't their call in this instance. They are simply being asked to judge your culpability for the offence for which you have been accused.

 

 

Good luck

[the_doc]

Don't panic. Whilst not a very savoury performance, it isn't a 'hanging' offence

 

The caution to which you refer will probably be that, in accordance with reporting under PACE(84) you will have been spoken to by the reporting officer in the following terms:

 

'You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention, when questioned, something that you may later rely on in Court.

 

Anything that you do say may be given in evidence, do you understand the caution?'

You will then have been asked some questions and the questions and your answers written down, which will provide the basis of the witness statement.

 

1. The breach of Byelaw is a strict liability matter, you have been correctly advised, it is not a recordable offence

 

2. You are looking at the likelihood of a fine and may be ordered to pay the prosecution costs. In my opinion, if you genuinely cannot get time off to go to the Court and say 'Sorry' in person, then you ought to write an aopolgetic letter to the Court, explain that you had a little too much to drink and made an uncharacteristic error whilst your judgement was impaired by alchohol

 

3. The charge before the Court is that for which you have been Summonsed. You haven't been charged with D&D and that isn't their call in this instance. They are simply being asked to judge your culpability for the offence for which you have been accused.

 

 

Good luck

 

Thanks for that old codga n as I am not home yet and on phone couple more issues I'd like your opinion on

 

4. Cctv clearly says can't see me soiling just leaning against wall

5. Solicitor advised statement not admissable as was interviewed in public in front of witness

 

I have gone with my gut to send a letter and apologise as just seems right thing to so all round as long as my job not effected

 

Lastly (until I can get on my laptop) - what sort of fine do you think I may get , I believe is grade 3 which is max K1000 and will I wind up the mag by not appearing and what per centage chancve he will adjourn and call me back?

[Old-CodJA]

Have you viewed this CCTV in the presence of your Solicitor and the Police?

 

If you have faith in this Solicitor, you are paying for his advice and I have reservations about anyone making such a sweeping comment.

 

I am not about to attempt to discredit his view without the luxury of seeing the evidence for myself.

 

I don't think that I, or any one else on a public open forum can offer any more helpful advice if you have already taken this up with a qualified legal advisor who has the benefit of seeing the whole case.

 

.

[the_doc]

Have you viewed this CCTV in the presence of your Solicitor and the Police?

 

If you have faith in this Solicitor, you are paying for his advice and I have reservations about anyone making such a sweeping comment.

 

I am not about to attempt to discredit his view without the luxury of seeing the evidence for myself.

 

I don't think that I, or any one else on a public open forum can offer any more helpful advice if you have already taken this up with a qualified legal advisor who has the benefit of seeing the whole case.

 

.

 

To be honest I consulted solicitor in early days but decided wanted to admit guilt on own. I have not seen photos as were never senmt to me.

 

I have not gone down solicitor route at all I am admitting guilt and apologising so please don't be alarmed as I really need your help.

 

I am getting married next year tbh and my only real concern is letting the court know I am of good character , apologising, learning my lesson and moving on...

[the_doc]

To be honest I consulted solicitor in early days but decided wanted to admit guilt on own. I have not seen photos as were never senmt to me.

 

I have not gone down solicitor route at all I am admitting guilt and apologising so please don't be alarmed as I really need your help.

 

I am getting married next year tbh and my only real concern is letting the court know I am of good character , apologising, learning my lesson and moving on...

 

And no crim record obviously

[Old-CodJA]

I'm not alarmed at all, I'm sorry to have to say this, but I just hope that you can see how easy it is to discredit a poor witness in Court.

 

You make the statement that "Cctv clearly says can't see me soiling just leaning against wall", but when challenged, you admit that you haven't seen any photographs.

 

If you know that you offended and are intending to admit guilt, I honestly believe that you just need to apologise and face up to the likelihood of a financial penalty.

 

Assuming you plead guilty or are convicted if not, there will be a record of a conviction recorded by the Court, but this is not the same as a criminal conviction. It is just a record that you were fined for a breach of Byelaw.

 

.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Old-CodJA

[the_doc]

I'm not alarmed at all, I'm sorry to have to say this, but I just hope that you can see how easy it is to discredit a poor witness in Court.

 

You make the statement that "Cctv clearly says can't see me soiling just leaning against wall", but when challenged, you admit that you haven't seen any photographs.

 

If you know that you offended and are intending to admit guilt, I honestly believe that you just need to apologise and face up to the likelihood of a financial penalty.

 

Assuming you plead guilty or are convicted if not, there will be a record of a conviction recorded by the Court, but this is not the same as a criminal conviction. It is just a record that you were fined for a breach of Byelaw.

 

.

 

Sorry am being unclear, it is the officer who viewed the cctvs statement which clearly says you can't see me doing it

 

Will a court record show up if an emplyer does a record check I believe it is called a CRC check?

[Wriggler7]

I cannot see why the 'interview' would not be admissable. The 'interview' would have been fairly short, not many questions that I can think to ask with an issue like this. I rather assume that an officer witnessed enough of 'the act' that the 'interview' would have been more to do with establishing identity, and a quick 'what are you doing'.

 

Most 'interviews' for minor offences will be conducted 'in the open'. There is a 'human rights' issue with such interviews, but the overiding thing is that it would not be 'proportionate' to the offence to take 'the accused' to a police station to interview on tape and so on.

 

I think your instincts are right, a written guilty plea, with an apology, will gain maximum discount, don't forget to submit a form MC100 which is called something like 'make sure you can pay your fine'. If there isn't one with the summons, you can get one from any magistrates court. (I haven't checked, but a lot of 'forms' are on the HMCS web site as downloadable PDF files.)

[Stigy]

I am surprised the CPS chose to run with this one, and an official Police Caution wasn't offered instead. These can usually be given on the spot, but being intoxicated might have meant you needed to be arrested and it issued when your were sober. The same goes for a PND of £80 (Penalty Notice for Disorder), although the latter would definitely only be a viable option if you were arrested and sobered up, or if the officer visited you when you were sober or you visit him at the station, and if it was in public view, as the public order act would be used.. From what I gather, although the toilet was not meant for Gentlemen, surely the fact that you urinated in a Toilet, regardless of for whom it was intended, you didn't soil railway property, as the toilet is designated for this very use...

 

Unless of course you missed the toilet on account of you being elephant's....

Edited January 1, 2011 by Stigy

[Mash It Up Harry]

Hmmmm BTP dealing with lowly byelaws eh? There was a time not so long ago when they wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. I've noticed in recent months a huge increase in byelaw use by BTP. Nice easy immediately detected crime with an instant clear up. Now I'm not cynical (much) but you might be forgiven for thinking that someone is massaging the figures?

[dx100uk]

posts merged to same thread

 

dx

siteteam

[the_doc]

Hmmmm BTP dealing with lowly byelaws eh? There was a time not so long ago when they wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. I've noticed in recent months a huge increase in byelaw use by BTP. Nice easy immediately detected crime with an instant clear up. Now I'm not cynical (much) but you might be forgiven for thinking that someone is massaging the figures?

 

Yes it seems I have been unlucky but I have come to terms with it and no pt in crying over spilt milk.

 

Very annoying though when you consider some of the things you see people get away with these days in saying that it is my own fault and hopefully when I apologise to the court they will see I am genuinely apologetic and be leniant.

 

from talking to people here they suggest 'the location may have an issue' and yes I agress someone somewhere is definitely pushing this to massage some figures , lets hope the magistrate is as annoyed with it as I am but I wont hold my breath!

[the_doc]

Guys as this is a non recordable offence, I am unsure if a discharge is the best request for me to make? Can you be 'discharged' for a bye law?

 

Bit confused now

 

Thanks

[SRPO]

Guys as this is a non recordable offence, I am unsure if a discharge is the best request for me to make? Can you be 'discharged' for a bye law?

 

Bit confused now

 

Thanks

 

 

You just cant help some people, did you actually read the responses?

 

Fin.

[the_doc]

You just cant help some people, did you actually read the responses?

 

Fin.

 

Yes I did read thanks you very much and all have been helpfull.

 

What is confusing me is the fact one prson has advised to request a discharge and I know for a fact this a 'discharge' recordable, are you saying it is only recordable for recordable offences?

 

be clear is a discharge for this unrecordable byelaw thus unrecordable?

 

I am just getting a bit stressed now and not thinking right

 

as it stands I have written and apologised as advised and I will repeat in court

[Wriggler7]

One of our (very) old jokes was to say that he has got Tulips from Amsterdam. Now that is a really criminal record.

 

Byelaw offences are not 'recordable' on the 'criminal record'. They are, however, recorded on the case papers. As they are heard in open Court, they may be reported 'publicly'.

 

If an employer asks a question in a recruitment form 'have you had any convictions', most of us would advise that you say 'yes'. This offence will be seen in years to come as one of those aberations that prove that you 'are human', rather than you should be in Dartmoor for a long time. The danger of saying 'no', is that the offence can be discovered. Probably won't be, but there remains a risk. Somewhere in the office, there is a schedule of how long offences 'stay on record'. (Rehabilitation of offenders Act anybody?)

 

I think I have already said 'keep some perspective' to this.

[Wriggler7]

The issue of asking for a discharge is one of those 'advocacy' questions.

 

You have to plant the seed of considering a discharge, without directly asking for it. I think (and only trying it would tell) that if you march into Court, tell them that they should give you an absolute or conditional discharge, the Magistrates may well say 'no, £175 fine, £110 costs and £10 compensation.'

 

However, if you explain to the Court that you are hard up, andyou have spoken to 'advisers' who have told you that you would have to pay for a proper solicitor, and, as a first time offender, you don't really know what procedures are, you could explain that someone had told you that the Court can give an absolute discharge. It plants the seed without you asking.

 

This is part of the danger of taking 'on-line' advice. If I am wrong, or if another 'reader' mis-understands what I am trying to say, it is 'you' that will suffer, with no comeback against 'me' for my comments. I don't know the Magistrates who will hear this case. I don't know how they reacted to the last bit of similar naughtiness. I cannot see what they look like. Or what you look like, for that matter.

[Wriggler7]

I was at ****** Magistrates for a case, a few years ago, it must be said. Defendant, a woman, from the south of the County had used a string of language to a public servant, also female, also in the south of the County, that would have made even and olf RSM blush, and in a very pointed and nasty manner. I was expecting the Court to ask why she hadn't been charged with a more serious offence, what they actually said was 'they all speak like that, you have to expect it if you work there'.

 

My ghast was well and truly flabbered. A very similar matter, from around the same time, heard at the City of London, the Court said 'no one should come to work to put up with that' and fined £100.00.

 

(I thought I ought to remove the name of the first Court, I will be going there again!)

[Old-CodJA]

I think I have already said 'keep some perspective' to this.

 

That's the best bit of advice anyone can give in my opinion.

 

It isn't a major offence, in my opinion it is damned silly and inconsiderate, others may take a different view, but it isn't going to have earth shattering consequences if you deal with it rationally and are polite, say sorry, take the punishment (if any) in a mature manner, then move on.

 

I thought I'd better add, that obviously doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken seriously, in my book it is the failure to deal with minor antisocial activities firmly that allows the proliferation of such actions. If there is a minor stigma attached that prevents a repeat, then that's all part of life's learning curve.

 

I'm sorry if that offends anyone, it is purely a personal opinion and as others have pointed out many times, that's all any of these posts are really.

.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[the_doc]

One of our (very) old jokes was to say that he has got Tulips from Amsterdam. Now that is a really criminal record.

 

Byelaw offences are not 'recordable' on the 'criminal record'. They are, however, recorded on the case papers. As they are heard in open Court, they may be reported 'publicly'.

 

If an employer asks a question in a recruitment form 'have you had any convictions', most of us would advise that you say 'yes'. This offence will be seen in years to come as one of those aberations that prove that you 'are human', rather than you should be in Dartmoor for a long time. The danger of saying 'no', is that the offence can be discovered. Probably won't be, but there remains a risk. Somewhere in the office, there is a schedule of how long offences 'stay on record'. (Rehabilitation of offenders Act anybody?)

 

I think I have already said 'keep some perspective' to this.

 

 

good advice as usual.

 

I will go, be honest (which I am) and hope for the best.

 

I know the advise here is only opinion.

 

Discharege - 1 year spent

cond discharge - 6 mnths

 

I expect a fine to be honest but on the basis of good charcter and possibiity of effecting my working life plus my utmost sincere apologies will suggest discharge , if its not be then so be it.

 

I have come to acept whatever will be will be