Being sued by Virgin trains

[Azrael_Alexander]

 

I have just received the above letter this Friday and I need your advice for when I respond. Firstly let me explain what happened and a little background on myself.

 

I'm a student who commutes mostly 5 days a week from Warrington to Preston on this train (Virgin Train from Warrington Bank Quay to Preston). Sometimes but not often before this incident I would purchase a Weekly ticket but due to the fact I have sporadic days off I will usually buy as I go along aiming to get the cheaper off peak day return.

 

On the day in question I had a lecture early in the morning to go to as well as an impending exam that day. Both count towards my degree with the former require I have >80% or they will begin to dock marks on percentage basis. I was totally focuses on cramming as much revision in and was aware I was going to be late if I did not hurry up.

 

I am completely guilty as I should have bought a ticket on the train and would have done if the train conductor had walked past me but my head was in my books at the time. My second mistake was I did not buy a ticket at preston my mind was elsewhere and while at the time I had clearly forgot looking back i know there is not defence for what I did. I know when I would have returned to Preston station to go home i would have realised I hadn't bought the ticket and gone to the ticket booth to do so. As I was rushing out I was stopped and being scared of confrontation knowing I was guilty as sin I was (As I would have been anyway) completely honest with the revenue protection officer. I was interviewed under caution and in my haste to answer with complete truthfulness to the question. "Did you intend to leave the station with out paying for a valid ticket." I answered "As I forgot to buy one then probably, I'd have bought a return when I came back." On his notepad the officer wrote "Probably". My hands were shaking as he asked me to fill in my details but it look like everything was correct. Before I left I quickly bought a ticket then went on my way to university. Worried and well proverbially crapping my pants.

 

As I returned to go home I realised that the ticket i had bought from the machines was a single, so I went to the ticket booth and paid extra for a return (i still have both tickets)

 

Since then I have only been getting weekly tickets to ensure I don't forget by only having to remember to buy a ticket on the Monday.

 

I cannot tell you how many times I am sorry for I have done and how much I know I am in the wrong. But it was a mistake. My main worry here is that this goes to court and I'm:

• Banned from using the Virgins Trains service meaning it's going to be very difficult for me to university at all
  
• That I'll get a criminal record, meaning that even with my degree in the current job market it will mean I never get a job
  
• That I'm going to be fined a massive amount of money which with my student debt as high as it is already is going to be very difficult to pay
  

I'm worried, sorry, scared and don't know how to respond to the letter without making things worse or digging myself into a hole which I can't get out.

 

Any help would be wonderful.

 

Many thanks and you may now feel free to call me an idiot.

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2010 by Azrael_Alexander
removal of letter as i failed to remover my address

[Grotesque]

Hi A_A

 

1- You are unlikely to be banned from using the train! -as long as you are in possession of a valid ticket. Think I'm right in saying that this would involve ASBO's etc which is reserved usually for repeat offenders.

 

2- If convicted, the conviction is unlikely (not absolutely impossible, but...) to be recorded on PNC as you are being 'privately prosecuted' by Virgin Trains (or will be, we assume) not the CPS.

 

3- Fines are usually in the region of £150-300.

 

4- No one who posts here is an 'idiot'- just either intentional fare evaders who want rip the Railways off, or people who through a lapse of judgment/ forgetfulness etc get caught in the net!

 

Unfortunately I couldn't actually read your letter in the attachment as was very small and after zooming-in, it became too blurred to be legible; what are you being prosecuted under?

[Azrael_Alexander]

Firstly, thank you for your reply i'm a little less worried now .

 

Secondly here is a link to that document, hopefully you will be able to read it:

 

Edit: Well it seems I can't add a link so I'll just write it out:

 

Prosecutions Office

Block A

Kentlink Offices

Station Approach

London Bridge Station

London SE1 9SP

 

FAX: 020 7234 1121

 

[My Address]

 

[Reference Number]

2nd November 2010

 

Dear Mr

 

On Wednesday 06/10/10 a person giving the above name and address was questioned by a member of rail staff with regard to avoiding payment of thier fare whilst making a train journey from Warrington Bank Quay to Preston.

 

The matter has been provisionally authorised for prosecution.

 

Before I proceed further, I invite you to respond by completing in full the bottom section of this letter, making any comments about the incident on the reverse, and send it to the above address within seven days.

 

Failure to respond will lead to the matter being processes without further notification.

 

[Form asking for my details asking for:]

Are you the person that travelled (Y/N)

Surname

Forename

Date of Birth

Address

Telephone Number

Occupation

Signature

Date]

 

 

 

I got the letter yesterday so to get it their before the 7 day deadline which would eb the 9th. I'll have to send it first class on Monday. Will they give me some lee way and what should I write?

[Grotesque]

Thanks for detail A_A.

 

As you say, write back ASAP, and preferably send Recorded Delivery.

 

Basically tell them what you told us in your original post. That sounded sincere to me and more importantly will do to the prosecutor- they get letters ('excuses', if you like!) like that all the time and will on the whole be able to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

Points you may wish to emphasise:

 

1) It was a one-off occurrence (if it was?!);

2) The personal/ academic pressure you were under which caused it, and any other personal 'issues' you may have had (without trying to bull**** them!) at the time;

3) It will never happen again (maybe post photocopies of your weekly tickets to demonstrate that you are buying longer tickets than you have to, to make sure it can't happen again);

4) That a prosecution would have a detrimental effect on your future career etc disproportionate to the offence committed;

5) Offer to pay the cost of the ticket and whatever othercosts/ administrative fees the Company feels appropriate, by return of post.

 

Basically, grovel! Which none of us like doing of course, but there is a chance you may be able to escape with (possibly greatly) reduced costs. And even if they charge you the afore-mentioned £150-300, at least it will be out of court with no conviction to your name.

 

Even if the worst comes to the worse and they do proceed to Court (which they are under no obligation not to do, I'm afraid), make sure you attend- and take your cheque-book with you! They may still settle at the last minute in order to free up court time for 'more deserving' (i.e., 'fare-dodging guilty-as-sin, bang-to-rights'!) cases. But of courrse don't worry about that until you come to it.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Keep us updated as things progress!

 

Good luck.

[neeze9]

reply by fax to ensure it is received - make sure you get

a fax confirmation. back it up with recorded delivery letter.

[SRPO]

what they said

[Old-CodJA]

I am just going to ask you one important question before you send that letter.

 

The advice that you have been given about the content of the reply letter thus far is perfectly correct, but I ask this extra question because it is important.

 

When you were questioned by the inspector, did you already correctly give ALL of the details that the South-Eastern letter is now asking you to confirm as correct?

 

Ie: Full Name, Date of birth, address, postcode, occupation etc.

 

You havea PM.

[Azrael_Alexander]

Yes I did answer all of the fully, while i'm not going to lie the idea of faking a name an address did for a fleeting moment cross my mind doing so would have been a major case of fraud and well honesty is allways the best policy.

 

I have replied to your PM. Thank you for all the advice so far by the way. I'll post up my letter for you guys to see before I send it off on monday.

[Azrael_Alexander]

Old-CodJa, I can't send you a PM due to not having a high enough post count so i'll reply here:

 

"From what i remember they were virgin revenue protection officers and I answered all of the question truthfully. The info they are asking for now, they should already have as I rmember filling it in for them as my name is asian and well hard to spell so I offered to write it for him.

 

So you think from your experiance that they are definitely going to push forward with this?"

[Grotesque]

Good point OC-JA. Should have thought of that in the first place- it's fundamental. The moment a second offence is committed, all the mitigation in the world won't do any good.

 

Out of curiosity, am I right in assuming that Virgin 'sub-contract' their prosecutions to South-Eastern? I know that a TOC I am not distantly connected to does the same.

 

To A_A: Personally I'd say it was a 50/50: they could easily continue the prosecution as legally it would be easy to prove you did not present a valid ticket when required (which is all they are required to do); but likewise, if they can get re-imbursement without going to court, that may well be (from the prosecutors point of view) the quickest way of dealing with it.

 

I too would be interested in other points of view. All the same, good luck A_A.

 

Example:

 

"Some people wake up in the morning, and think- 'I'm gonna save a few bob on train fares today'; and other people wake up in the morning, and don't think at all!"

Edited November 6, 2010 by Grotesque
Additional question

[Old-CodJA]

Grotesque,

 

Yes, the processing for Virgin is undertaken by RPSS at Portsmouth hence the SE letter.

 

Azrael_Alexander,

 

Yes, honesty is the best policy and if your letter is constructed thoughtfully, shows remorse and offers to make recompense to the TOC for your action, there is no reason that it should not get a good reception.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Old-CodJA
correct spelling error

[Azrael_Alexander]

Thank you all once again for the help.

 

@Old-CodJA, if you would be so kind as to help me by replying to my PM i would be much obliged.

[Azrael_Alexander]

What could I do to improve upon this response:

[My address]

Prosecutions Office

Block A

Kentlink Offices

Station Approach

London Bridge Station

LONDON

SE1 9SP

 

RE:REF: BRIGHTON/103093

07 November 2010

Dear Prosecutions Manager

 

Firstly, let me begin by giving my most sincere and humble apologies for having not only failed to produce a valid ticket on my train journey on the 06/10/10 from Warrington Bank Quay to Preston. But for also wasting yours and the railway companies time any money. I made a major mistake one that will never occur again and I would beg for a moment of your time to allow me to explain the circumstances on the 06/10/10 that lead me to this great oversight.

 

I’m a student living in Warrington who commutes using the Virgin Trains service to Preston almost every week day. I have been doing so for the past one and a half years. Sometimes but not often before this incident I would purchase a Weekly ticket for this train service. However due to the fact I have sporadic days off I will usually aim to purchase the cheaper off peak day return ticket. Unfortunately because of my regular train use and my accumulation of many train tickets I did not keep any of my tickets prior to 06/10/10. I have however sent with this letter a photocopy of all my tickets since that date. I know that on the two days prior to 06/10/10 as well as various dates after, there has been plain clothes revenue collection officers in Preston Station to whom I have been able to produce my tickets to. I hope these proves that as a regular railway user this is the first time I have made this sort of mistake and would never dream of stealing from the railways.

 

On the 06/10/10 I simply forgot to buy a ticket, I know that this is not a real excuse but it is the truth. On that Wednesday I was very conscious of the possibility of being late for a lecture as well as nervous about an impending exam. The reason I was worried about being late is because the University I attend has a policy of docking marks in modules for anyone who has a less than 80% attendance for lectures and tutorials. Mind preoccupied I went straight onto the train and spent the entirety of the journey reading my books and lecture notes. I can’t even remember if the train manager walked past to check my ticket as I was so focused on revising. It was in this mindset that I left the train and hurried out of the station trying not to be late for the aforementioned letter when I was stopped by the revenue protection officer. When interviewed I answered every question truthfully and was physically shaking as I knew I was in the wrong and this mistake was completely due to my forgetfulness. When I was asked the question, did you intend to leave the station without a valid ticket? My answer was probably, but that when I return to the station to go back to Warrington I would have bought the correct ticket. If my memory serves correct I believe the officer for time sakes simply shortened this answer to “probably”. This answer out of context may make it seem I wished to deceive the railway which I assure you is not the case. As proven by the fact that immediately after the conclusion of the interview I went to buy a valid ticket for the journey. Still in a rush I then left the station for University. Upon my return to the station I realised that I had purchased the wrong ticket. You can see from the photocopied attached papers that I had purchased Preston to Warrington single at 11:02. I had once again made another mistake this time due to my haste and simply went to the ticket booth to pay the extra for the return ticket (also photocopied). I hope once again this illustrates that I’m aware of my mistake and was attempting to rectify it by ensuring I had a valid ticket.

 

Ever since 06/10/10 I have been purchasing weekly tickets on a regular basis even when I have days off to ensure this incident never occurs again (see photocopies). The exception being the week beginning on the 01/11/10 due to the fact that I have been volunteering at a local nursing home. I was expecting to cover various shifts in the week and is the reason I did not travel on the 03/11/10 (hence no ticket). I cannot convey how apologetic I am and I am more than willing to pay for the ticket again, for a fine ticket or other administration costs. All I ask is for some leniency as a prosecution would have a massively detrimental effect to my future career. In a job market where 90 graduates will be fighting for a single job I can only ask that you take a proportional measure to offence I have committed.

 

Once again I offer my most humble apology and I hope you will contact me so we sort out my mistake.

 

Yours Sincerely

[Old-CodJA]

I think that is an excellent letter. There are minor grammatical errors, but it is YOUR letter and I would expect the prosecution office staff to give your plea proper consideration.

 

We have already pointed out the fact that they are not obliged to settle without Court action, but it is likely that any TOC give serious consideration to avoiding further proceedings in a 'first offence' case if there is a realistic chance of getting the fare and their costs paid for less effort, unless there is a serious offence such as forged or transferred season tickets.

 

If they say no and the matter proceeds to Court, you can always use this as an indication of your willingness to avoid wasted Court time and your remorse when answering the charge there.

 

If you get a favourable reply, you should expect to be asked to pay their full costs and the fare so you need to make provision for a one-off payment. It is hard to say how much that will be, but I'd make arrangements to be able to pay £100 plus, because if a settlement is agreed, it cannot be paid in small increments.

 

Good luck.

[Azrael_Alexander]

I may have missed this but what does TOC mean?

[Azrael_Alexander]

I do have another confession to make and I was wondering if I should put it in there. But on two occasions I have made a similar absent minded mistake where I have been so wrapped up in my books but this time coming from preston to warrington where I have missed the stop (while having a valid ticket) and being over carried all the way to london euston. On these occasions the railsway has been so good to me by allowing me to go directly home without paying. Would they have this on record and is it worth bringing up. (My father says I should add it)

[Old-CodJA]

No, if you were not reported on those two occasions, you should not mention them in your letter. If you were reported, they MAY have a record of it, but if no action was taken against you then don't remind them.

 

If you are fortunate in getting a favourable reply to your letter, what you MUST do in future is pay closer attention, because this incident will be on record with the TOC (Train Operating Company) and it is unlikely that you will continue to be so lucky.

[Stigy]

I may have missed this but what does TOC mean?

TOC = Train Operating Company.

 

Can't really add any further to the good advice as it's all been said really. Although I'm guilty of not reading things thoroughly enough sometimes, I can't help but see Virgin Trains in the title of this thread, and then a letter from Southeastern Trains etc....what have I missed?

[Old-CodJA]

TOC = Train Operating Company.

 

Can't really add any further to the good advice as it's all been said really. Although I'm guilty of not reading things thoroughly enough sometimes, I can't help but see Virgin Trains in the title of this thread, and then a letter from Southeastern Trains etc....what have I missed?

 

You missed nothing really Stigy, it is quite common for TOCs to outsource prosecutions these days. Some TOCs use other TOCs (as in the case of the Virgin / South-Eastern arrangement) whilst some use other specialist prosecution agencies.

[Stigy]

You missed nothing really Stigy, it is quite common for TOCs to outsource prosecutions these days. Some TOCs use other TOCs (as in the case of the Virgin / South-Eastern arrangement) whilst some use other specialist prosecution agencies.

Oh right, I've learnt something then, lol. I knew that TfL sometimes pass cases to BTP/CPS (or so I hear), but didn't know TOCs done similar.

[RPI]

I think one other lesson to learn is to ensure that you buy your ticket before you board the train as this is an offence in it's self (you mentioned that no-one came around to sell you a ticket).

[Idiot123]

Azrael

 

What was the outcome of all this?

[Maxwell TM]

Deleted

[Idiot123]

Anyone know how this ended?

[honeybee13]

Hello again Idiot123. You're finding out one of the frustrating aspects of CAG, that people who have received help from the knowledgeable people on this and other forums don't come back and tell us what happened.

 

This is sad for those who do their best to help and also for future caggers who would like to know more. I hope you'll keep your thread updated and that you have a reply to your request above.

 

My best, HB