Cabot/Morgans going to court with copy/illegible CCA

[shaaarn]

Id be really grateful on any help with a matter regarding an Egg credit card balance which Cabot financial with their solicitor arm Morgan are bringing me to court on.

 

To date I have placed a CCA request with Egg who eventually found a version of a CCA but it is of very poor quality and illegible in many places (see below). I have pointed this out however they have escalated the issue and a date has been fixed for court. The swapping of disclosure list happened recently and once again I pointed out the illegible CCA (possibly a microfiche copy). I have asked if I could have sight of the original documentation to which their reply is -

 

"We have not asserted that we have the original credit agreement. Our list clearly states 'Copy of Credit Agreement'. To the best of our knowledge the original has not been retained by Egg Banking plc. We shall be relying on the copy already provided to you at Court."

 

and theres more, I have also asked for the original Notice of Assignment to which they have replied "we shall be relying on the representations of the two letters giving notices of the Assignment provided to you."

 

I am also still waiting for the copy of the Default Notice which they hope to provide soon however an earlier letter states that they dont need to provide the Notice as it is only required if they wish to a) terminate, b) demand earlier repayment of any sum (which they do), c)recover possession of any goods/land, d)treat any right as terminated or e)enforce any security.

 

Can anyone more experienced advice me as to where I stand in regards to the quality of the CCA and the lack of an original Notice of Assignment and/or default notice please.

 

Ive attached the illegible CCA if it helps.

 

 

 

This is the best scan I can do and is pretty close quality wise to what has been sent to me.

 

shaaarn

 

(My apologies if I have posted this in the wrong section, Im new to all this )

[Docman]

Hi shaaarn

 

what did you put in your defence and how far along the court process are you?

 

doc

[shaaarn]

I used the embarrassed defence template at first docman because their particulars of claim were so vague with a paragraph added to highlight the copy agreement provided being illegible also.

 

The trial has a date later on this year and we have just swapped disclosure lists if it helps.

[shaaarn]

Bump

[cymruambyth]

Did you send CPR 31.14 for the documents? Have the court given any directions regarding the production of documents?

[Hadituptohere]

Hi this may be off use

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/188093-egg-credit-agreements-what.html

 

Hadituptohere

[shaaarn]

I sent a request to the solicitors for relevant documentation and you can see their reply to each document request in my original post. I did not state it was a CPR request though and did not send anything like this to the court.

 

No directions have been provided by the court even though I have stated the illegibility of the proposed CCA doc in the allocation questionaire.

 

Should I now do this but formally state it as a CPR request? Do I send all correspondance to the court too.

[shaaarn]

Can I bump this thread Ive started because I need some advice from those with any experience about this.

 

Im still a bit bewildered as to how this is still going to court with a document that cant be read. I have made several requests for a better copy but they have stated that this is the best they have.

 

The trial date is now less than a month away and I am also still waiting the notice of assignement, the notice of default and their witness statement.

 

(I should state that I havent produced a statement neither because I want to have sight of all documentation first.)

[shaaarn]

Can I bump this thread to gain some thoughts because this issue is soon going to court.

 

In my humble opinion this agreement would be classed as illegible and therefore unenforceable, whereas the Claimant has stated that this is legible and is what they rely upon.

 

Specific notice was given by the court that any document whose contents were illegible, a typed copy should be included next to it in the bundle. The claimants bundle does not have a typed copy included.

 

For example I have difficulty reading anything in the section with the word "Approved" stamped over it, and this is the type of thing I interpret in my day to day work!

[pabrmu]

Bumping on shaarns behalf.

[shaaarn]

Thanks for the nudge-anyone able to help? ***URGENT***

[shaaarn]

Can anyone assist?

 

Im in court for my trial tomorrow and I wish to gain some last minute advice regarding the arrears only issue cabot are trying.

 

They are trying to dodge the need for termination and default notice from either themselves or the original creditor by claiming they are requesting the arrears only when the amount stated in POC is the full amount (plus interest).

 

I have previously checked with a couple of CRA's and could find no evidence of the debt at all but did one more search last night and find one CRA has defaults listed in Cabots name and the original creditor? All the accompanying info in the record matches this debt. Cabot also state that it has been terminated.

 

Therefore I believe I am right in saying a default notice should have been provided.

 

How do I handle this now - do I do an additional statement, do I add the credit report as an attachment (with all details or just those specific to this case) or do I put in a skeleton argument for this?

 

Any help is very much appreciated.

 

Please note-

This isnt the only element of this case, I also contest the legibility of the CCA too (as posted in a previous thread)

[cymruambyth]

Sorry, I can't help as my pc with all my lsaved links is broken.

Have you tried sending a PM to Andrew1 or Rhia as some people get an email to notify of pms, Also, press the triangle to tryand get the site team.

 

Good luck

[Rhia]

Have PM'd you but the illegible document is likely to be unenforceable and s127(3) of the Consumer Credit Act kicks in. The Act says the document should be "easily legible" that doesn't mean under a magnifying glass it means for a person with reasonable sight with or without glasses. If it's illegible they're stuffed.

 

If there's a Default entry on your credit report print it off -fast. This is absolute proof that a DN was issued and that should bugger them up nicely.

 

Also what rate of interest have they charged you on top of the arrears. Not sure of this but I think they can't charge you unless the agreement has been properly assigned to them (and is also enforceable which if it's illegible it's not and that's before you check full terms etc under s61-63 of the CCA); they now have to prove it was properly assigned so you need to see the deed of assignment and the sales document.

 

I would push for an adjournment and tell the Judge you cannot form a complete defence without Cabot supplying this ifnormation. That's if it gets that far as your discovery of the Default entry has mightily queered their pitch.

[Rhia]

Get the site team to merge this with your other threads with regard to this one case. I have posted on the other one.

[DonkeyB]

This is a now-established Cabot trick.

 

If they state the account was terminated, then a default notice would have been required. If the facility was withdrawn, that is a different matter, but that is not what was said. Do you remember receiving a DN from the OC? If you did, did you SAR the OC? CPR 31.17 (orders for disclosure against a person not a party, I think) may be useful to make the OC disclose any such DN.

[andrew1]

When you go tomorrow, just tell them you have the Cabot Fan Club behind you - they are going to have to better than that to get this one passed the judge would they like to settle before going into court or wait for the slaughter?

 

" but did one more search last night and find one CRA has defaults listed in Cabots name and the original creditor?"

 

Are you saying you have 2 defaults registered for the same debt? That's a big No-No....!!

[DonkeyB]

As Rhia and Andrew say, the double entry on the defaults is a dead give away.

 

But do bear in mind that the registering of a default with the CRAs is NOT the same as the issue of a DN!

[pabrmu]

Hi Shaarn,

If they have not issued a DN and it is not terminated, which is what they seem to be saying, that means that the account must still be live. If this is the case, they should have been sending regular statements of account.

How prepared are you?

Very best of luck.

[pabrmu]

Hi Shaarn,

Another thing, I read on a similar thread that the defendant gave the "agreement" to the oppo solicitor and asked him to read (a particular illegible part) of it. This should prove the point.

[cymruambyth]

When you go tomorrow, just tell them you have the Cabot Fan Club behind you - they are going to have to better than that to get this one passed the judge would they like to settle before going into court or wait for the slaughter?

 

" but did one more search last night and find one CRA has defaults listed in Cabots name and the original creditor?"

 

Are you saying you have 2 defaults registered for the same debt? That's a big No-No....!!

 

Please can someone expand on 2 defaults for the same debt being a big No-No

[Rhia]

If the OC has registered a default that's OK but if they assign the debt to a DCA the original default has to come off before Cabot can start to regsister it. In other words you can't have two defaults for one debt.

 

And yes pabrmu agree check if it's live or not.

[shaaarn]

WOW. Thanks everyone, Ill try to answer each point if I can.

 

S

[shaaarn]

If there's a Default entry on your credit report print it off -fast. This is absolute proof that a DN was issued and that should bugger them up nicely.

 

How do I include thsi in tomorrows trial at this late stage?

 

Also what rate of interest have they charged you on top of the arrears. Not sure of this but I think they can't charge you unless the agreement has been properly assigned to them (and is also enforceable which if it's illegible it's not and that's before you check full terms etc under s61-63 of the CCA); they now have to prove it was properly assigned so you need to see the deed of assignment and the sales document.

 

I would push for an adjournment and tell the Judge you cannot form a complete defence without Cabot supplying this ifnormation. That's if it gets that far as your discovery of the Default entry has mightily queered their pitch.

 

Can I do this at such a late stage?

[shaaarn]

This is a now-established Cabot trick.

 

If they state the account was terminated, then a default notice would have been required. If the facility was withdrawn, that is a different matter, but that is not what was said. Do you remember receiving a DN from the OC? If you did, did you SAR the OC? CPR 31.17 (orders for disclosure against a person not a party, I think) may be useful to make the OC disclose any such DN.

 

Donkey I dont recall receiving any DN, I did SAR the OC but cant find the letter anywhere???? CPR 31.14 (is this the right one) took place but still no DN.

 

The CRA states account ended by OC in Oct 2009 so am I right in saying this is terminated? or is this because Cabot have took over?