Kingston Eden Street Bus Lanes

[silver service]

Green & Mean, Hymn & Mi

Thanks for your continued thoughts and support on this issue. Please excuse my ignorance, but can you give me OP & PI (from previous messages) in full! Probably something very simple, but just can't think - long day!

In respect of the lease contract - through my employment, I just have a policy document, not a signed contract. The relevant section under Employee Obligations, states "Pay any parking fines or other penalties incurred in respect of the Vehicle during the period of the Agreement. Payments to be deducted from employee's salary through payroll". So potentially I've hit another obstacle if this overrides our belief that the PCN invalid. In fact I was asked to forward a cheque, which I have not (instead explained the appeal and predicament) and I have not had any deductions from my salary. They may just decide to take it at the end of my lease period which is a good while away yet.

[green_and_mean]

Green & Mean, Hymn & Mi

Thanks for your continued thoughts and support on this issue. Please excuse my ignorance, but can you give me OP & PI (from previous messages) in full! Probably something very simple, but just can't think - long day!

In respect of the lease contract - through my employment, I just have a policy document, not a signed contract. The relevant section under Employee Obligations, states "Pay any parking fines or other penalties incurred in respect of the Vehicle during the period of the Agreement. Payments to be deducted from employee's salary through payroll". So potentially I've hit another obstacle if this overrides our belief that the PCN invalid. In fact I was asked to forward a cheque, which I have not (instead explained the appeal and predicament) and I have not had any deductions from my salary. They may just decide to take it at the end of my lease period which is a good while away yet.

 

Incurred is the key word you only incur it if you are guilty of the contravention you should be able to appeal it doesn't matter if you lose the appeal and any discount because you are paying in the end anyway.

[HYMN AND MI]

I HAVE to see the WHOLE document if you want help on this one.

[silver service]

This is a tricky one, as it is an internal document (26 pages) and I don't want to get caught out in any way.

Most if it seems to me irrelevant in relation to the current issue - being largely about eligibility depending on your role within the organisation, what the purpose of the lease option is, choosing a car, getting quotes, reimbursement of business mileage etc. There is 1 page headed Duration of Hire, which says "In respect of the vehicle being available for the employee's private use, the User agrees to pay to [the organisation]" then lists various charges such as early termination, damage not covered by insurance etc etc. In this bit it includes "All sums which [the organisation] becomes liable to pay by way of fine penalty or damages which may be incurred whilst the Vehicle is being used privately or on business during the currency of the relevant Agreement or any costs, charges or expenses incurred in respect of taking or defending any proceedings connected therewith save to the extent covered therewith by the insurance policy relating to the Vehicle". Near the end it says that the agreement is covered by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

These are the only bits related to paying anything above my usual monthly charge.

[HYMN AND MI]

Thanks. Will send to my mate. OK?

[HYMN AND MI]

He says, verbatim: "I think your mate may have a case to resist paying. He can argue that the organisation has not "become liable" to pay the amount they did in fact pay to Kingston Council because the fine was not legal as a result of the defects in the bus-lane signage." He means the hire company. Good luck as this may not be as tightly-sealed as they would like from their side. I also think the lack of communication is appalling between them and you re this nonsense.

[HYMN AND MI]

See also this from Chapter 5: 17.13 Figure 17-2 indicates typical details for a

contra-flow lane. The bus lane, which should be at

least 3 m wide (4.0 to 4.25 m if cyclists are admitted),

is separated from the rest of the carriageway by a

continuous line to diagram 1049.

 

This is re width: it is less than 4 metres at its inception! Also, reinforces layout for a contra-flow!

 

Also: the Local Authorities' Traffic Order Procedure Regulationss require that:

Traffic signs

18. — (1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a)

before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;

(b)

the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force;

 

The point here is that they had left old markings pertaining to a previous Order and bus lane layout. Thus, one could argue that this is wrong, too, in terms of (b) above!

Edited September 15, 2010 by HYMN AND MI
addition

[silver service]

Many thanks for this. I will get back to my lease firm

[HYMN AND MI]

No problem. Of course, there is the other angle that, they could have waited for the EN, and just ticked the box that they were are a hire company etc and given RBK your address. Why DID they pay immediately, I wonder? And without informing you.

 

This is hotting up,at last.

 

Suggest you e-mail PATAS: [email protected] re the following decisions: they will e-mail back:

 

2100299918 - refused

 

2100086214 - refused

 

2100116712 - allowed

 

2100129623 - allowed

 

210009976A - allowed

 

All to do with Eden Street!

Edited September 16, 2010 by HYMN AND MI

[frontseatdriver]

Update on my PCN - rang the Council last week as had gone past the 14 days to receive my enforcement notice and had received no acknowledgement of my letter requesting a full response. I was shouted at by a gentleman employed within the parking department, who wouldn't even let me explain why I was calling and proceeded to attempt to entrap me!

 

I then received a 3 page (!) letter from the gentleman , in which like in his telephone conversation he has made suggestions that I am only trying to get the discounted period to run for longer and he states that most people are grateful for the delay in the Council responding to representations!

 

He advises me in the letter that DfT have given RBK permission to only use 1048 'BUS LANE' legend rather than 1048.2 'BUS (and Cycle symbol) LANE' legend - has anyone been provided with evidence of this?!

 

He has also advised me that the only time the bus lane is permissible to use is when police direct the traffic into the bus lane - contradictory to what his colleague mentioned in the last letter in relation to the bollards!

 

He states in his letter that RBK 'reward citizens' who pay promptly by letting them pay half!!!!

[HYMN AND MI]

Post up the letter. As I said, an FOI Request has been made re the legend and am awaiting a response re DfT "verbal authorisation". They have not authorised it in writing and they raised concerns re the original plans. The first legend they wanted to put there was actually 1048.4, but the DfT would not allow and RBK were told at least twice to revise their plans. IMO, this new twist is an attempt to wriggle out.

Edited October 4, 2010 by HYMN AND MI

[green_and_mean]

Regardless of any authorisation my original argument still stands a contra flow bus lane using their signage is not enforceable in London using the LLA 1996. This has never been argued as everyone seems to be distracted by the countless FOI requests regarding authorisations, dubious PCN wording and other matters. By getting sucked into their argument about what signs they can and cannot use you are missing the whole point that they have no legal power to enforce the lane it should either be enforced like the Brook st one around the corner by the Police or RBK need to take on decrim moving traffic enforcement and use LLA 2003.

[frontseatdriver]

I will stick the letter up this evening - I forgot to pick it up this morning!

 

I knew I had heard mention of the DfT and the road legend! Thank you!

[HYMN AND MI]

Another OP on the other forum has just received a letter saying DfT have authorised 1048 as acceptable. Doh! If so, this is against statute:

Edited October 5, 2010 by HYMN AND MI

[lamma]

a letter from the council or from the DfT ? ?

[green_and_mean]

Ho Hum! Not wishing to sound rude but why are you still wittering on about what signs can and cannot be used...YOU CANNOT ENFORCE A CONTRA FLOW BUS LANE USING LLA 1996!!

[lamma]

I agree. Just trying to find out the source of the letter.

[HYMN AND MI]

As any good lawyer would do, you use every argument available in order to win the case. If you care to access the cases quoted......?

[green_and_mean]

As any good lawyer would do, you use every argument available in order to win the case. If you care to access the cases quoted......?

 

Yes but you are arguing the Councils case when there is no case to answer. The fact is the signs that are there authorised or not are not a Bus Lane as prescribed by the LLA 1996. The pure fact that you have quoted 2 cases that have been refused which goes to show that relying on technical arguments is a gamble.

[MAXY44]

First time ever I got a fine via the post concerning CCTV. It is EDEN Street and like the others I have seen on line.

 

Could someone please tell me where I can find what to write on the appeal? It doesn't look like a bus lane and the only sign is small and up in the corner on the bend. I have looked at Google but since they have been there a few more signs have been introduced. Shall I go back to take a number of pictures? Is it worth it?

 

Please advise me on what to write. Thank you

[green_and_mean]

First time ever I got a fine via the post concerning CCTV. It is EDEN Street and like the others I have seen on line.

 

Could someone please tell me where I can find what to write on the appeal? It doesn't look like a bus lane and the only sign is small and up in the corner on the bend. I have looked at Google but since they have been there a few more signs have been introduced. Shall I go back to take a number of pictures? Is it worth it?

 

Please advise me on what to write. Thank you

 

Which bit did you drive down and where did you enter Eden St

[HYMN AND MI]

First time ever I got a fine via the post concerning CCTV. It is EDEN Street and like the others I have seen on line.

 

Could someone please tell me where I can find what to write on the appeal? It doesn't look like a bus lane and the only sign is small and up in the corner on the bend. I have looked at Google but since they have been there a few more signs have been introduced. Shall I go back to take a number of pictures? Is it worth it?

 

Please advise me on what to write. Thank you

 

Can you post up all documents, erasing your personal details.

[MAXY44]

Thank you guys for your replies. I went back yesterday to take a few pictures. It is all rather confusing. I was coming from the High Street (Police Station to my right) – as going toward the Market Square (Market Place). At the bend Eden Street starts and one can see no signs. There is a Zebra crossing and soon after a sign painted on the road with an arrow pointing to the right (Turn Right). I didn’t measure the arrow as they have to comply to certain standards but I am surprised that there is NO Blue Sign giving directions. It is not standard that on a single carriageway a sign is painted to give directions. Next to the tree and well after the Bus Lane starts there is a blue sign with bus, cycle and taxi only – with enforcement camera sign under it. As I said, this is AFTER the bus lane starts and somewhat blended in with a tree next to it. Looking at the pictures I am also confused why there are two no entry signs on the opposite carriageway. I see if I can upload some pictures and, by the way, there is no photographic evidence with the PCN

 

OH!? I need 20 posts b4 I can submit pictures !?!? This is ODD - to be honest

[green_and_mean]

Thank you guys for your replies. I went back yesterday to take a few pictures. It is all rather confusing. I was coming from the High Street (Police Station to my right) – as going toward the Market Square (Market Place). At the bend Eden Street starts and one can see no signs. There is a Zebra crossing and soon after a sign painted on the road with an arrow pointing to the right (Turn Right). I didn’t measure the arrow as they have to comply to certain standards but I am surprised that there is NO Blue Sign giving directions. It is not standard that on a single carriageway a sign is painted to give directions. Next to the tree and well after the Bus Lane starts there is a blue sign with bus, cycle and taxi only – with enforcement camera sign under it. As I said, this is AFTER the bus lane starts and somewhat blended in with a tree next to it. Looking at the pictures I am also confused why there are two no entry signs on the opposite carriageway. I see if I can upload some pictures and, by the way, there is no photographic evidence with the PCN

 

OH!? I need 20 posts b4 I can submit pictures !?!? This is ODD - to be honest

 

So you entered at the start by the Church and drove past Maplins towards the old post office......correct?

[HYMN AND MI]

I do believe this sign intructing to turn right is a new addition? The two no entry signs are standard for this type of contra flow layout.