PCN with wrong location - informal appeal rejected, what now?

[zanmato]

Hello everyone,

 

I thought i should get some advice before taking this appeal to the next stage.

 

I received a Manchester Council PCN on 12/04/2010:

 

The PCN states that i was parked in Hulme Hall Lane (MP&NH) (Miles Platting & Newton Heath). I was actually parked at the junction of Ellesmere St & Hulme Hall ROAD in Hulme, 3 or 4 miles away from Miles Platting.

 

I submitted an informal appeal on the grounds that the contravention did not take place as i was not parked where they stated. Clear cut you would have thought...

 

I have just received back a letter rejecting the appeal stating the following:

"You state in your letter that you were not parked on Hulme Hall Lane, Miles Platting. A site check has been carried out, which has confirmed your vehicle was parked in the location stated."

 

In the letter, they explicitly mention that i was parked in Miles Platting. I wasn't, the photos prove i wasn't, the CEO can't have been patrolling both areas so why have they rejected it? Site inspection my behind!

 

Is the next course of action to wait for the NtO & then make a formal appeal? If so what info should i gather for the appeal? will i have to prove the photos are from a different location or is that for the council to prove they are where they say they are?

 

By the way, I have been given another 14 days to pay the reduced amount.

 

Thanks for any help!

 

ps here is the letter i received:

[zanmato]

Another thought.... would it be worth replying to the letter & telling the council that the photos prove i was parked in Ellesmere St, Hulme, near my flat?

Would they enter into correspondence now they have rejected the informal appeal?

[TheBogsDollocks]

Email them the location using google streetview. That should prove them wrong.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=ellesmere+street+hulme&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=11.435889,33.969727&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Ellesmere+St,+Manchester+M15,+United+Kingdom&ll=53.47104,-2.263736&spn=0.001418,0.006191&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.471103,-2.26361&panoid=AYKWGpXzJoUKK9teG7pecg&cbp=12,116.54,,0,12.49

Edited May 21, 2010 by TheBogsDollocks

[lamma]

how can a site check carried out after the event confirm where you were parked. it can't. they made a 'mistake'. I would take it all the way to appeal .

[green_and_mean]

how can a site check carried out after the event confirm where you were parked. it can't.

 

In theory it would confirm the location matched the photos taken and the location on the PCN.

[lamma]

But the location on the PCN is wrong. that would be a good trick unless the second location is an exact clone of the first in every respect. of course they may have 'mistakenly' surveyed the wrong site or taken restricted view pics of signs and not the location in general. OP needs to take his own pics of both locations, write again with the pics and tell the council he will claim costs.

[green_and_mean]

But the location on the PCN is wrong. that would be a good trick unless the second location is an exact clone of the first in every respect. of course they may have 'mistakenly' surveyed the wrong site or taken restricted view pics of signs and not the location in general. OP needs to take his own pics of both locations, write again with the pics and tell the council he will claim costs.

 

Which is why I said 'in theory'

[lamma]

I know - explanation was for the general reader.

[maggie waggie]

Adjudication beckons

Edited May 22, 2010 by maggie waggie
Error

[lamma]

Chances are they will duck out just before - after leading you all the way to it in case you crumble and pay up.

[zanmato]

I called them up to register my confusion & to see if it was worth asking them to reconsider the "informal" appeal.

 

The woman i spoke to was very helpful & was just as confused as me. She urged me to take my own photos of the site & send a reply email pointing out the error of location with maps etc.

 

I have done this, using google maps, street view etc & told them in my email that i WILL be taking it all the way to the adjudicator if necessary.

 

Fingers crossed but i suspect i will have to wait for the NtO & submit a formal appeal...

 

Thanks for your help so far, esp TheBogsDollocks for his street view suggestion... i hadn't thought of that!

[Al27]

Hi mate. I live round the corner from this street.

 

You don't really need to make too much of a meal about this. MCC are talking rubbish.

 

Wait for the NtO, simply tick "The contravention did not occur" and write "The PCN stated vehicle XYZ was parked in Hulme Hall Lane. The response to the informal appeal stated the vehicle was parked in Hulme Hall Lane, Miles Platting. The vehicle was parked in Hulme Hall Road, Castlefield. Therefore the contravention did not occur as described and the PCN is invalid".

 

Don't need to bother with maps and stuff.

[lamma]

I agree.

[Mightyacorn]

Wrong location on a PCN is only a mitigation circumstance MC40 on Civil Parking Guidlines, and the Authorities MAY withdraw the ticket.

 

I would Google Map, and Photo's and resubmit, but the guidlines do say MAY and not WILL

[zanmato]

Wrong location on a PCN is only a mitigation circumstance MC40 on Civil Parking Guidlines, and the Authorities MAY withdraw the ticket.

 

Thats the first i've heard of that. everything i've read online has said that as it's a legal document, the details have to be correct or it's void... if its on the interweb it MUST be true?!

 

Do you have a link to the Guidelines please, so i can check them out?

Cheers

[lamma]

Wrong location on a PCN is only a mitigation circumstance MC40 on Civil Parking Guidlines, and the Authorities MAY withdraw the ticket.

 

I would Google Map, and Photo's and resubmit, but the guidlines do say MAY and not WILL

 

I don't really care what the Civil Parking Guidelines say - its a sure fire winner on every PCN I have seen that has it. The allegation (and thats all it is) cannot stand if the car was somewhere else. I would still like to see these Civil Parking Guidelines though I think you may confusing it was the optional extras on the PCN,see THE SECRETARY OF STATE’S STATUTORY GUIDANCE TO LOCAL AUTHORITIES ON THE CIVIL ENFORCEMENT OF PARKING CONTRAVENTIONS as far as the allegation goes it has to fail if the address is wrong.

[green_and_mean]

How can wrong location be mitigation?? Mitigation means you are 'guilty' but have a good excuse, if you are not parked at the alledged location how can you be guilty of contravening a parking regulation there?

Edited May 25, 2010 by green_and_mean

[Al27]

There is no specific mention of correct location having to be on the PCN, but lack of one would invalidate these two points IMO:

 

 

For the purposes of this Part of this Act, a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle, by the owner of the vehicle, if;

there has, with respect to the vehicle, been a contravention of, or failure to comply with, any provision made by or under any order relating to the designated parking place.

 

A penalty charge notice must state—

(a)the grounds on which the parking attendant believes that a penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle;

[Mightyacorn]

MC42 on page 69:-

 

http://www.plymouth.gov.uk/civil_parking_enforcement_cancellation_policy.pdf

 

 

It says this on all Council Guidelines, and gives the impression that it is a discretionary reason to withdraw ticket, as opposed to a mandatory reason.

 

However Regulation 88 of THE SECRETARY OF STATE’S STATUTORY GUIDANCE TO LOCAL AUTHORITIES ON THE CIVIL ENFORCEMENT OF PARKING CONTRAVENTIONS

88. It is likely that an enforcement authority will receive informal challenges against PCNs before they issue the NtO (this does not apply to PCNs issued by post where the PCN will act as an NtO). They are likely to receive these

within the 14 day discount period. Enforcement authorities should give proper consideration and respond to these challenges with care and attention, and in a timely manner in order to foster good customer relations, reduce the number of NtOs sent and the number of formal representations to be considered. The Secretary of State suggests that authorities should respond within 14 days. Enforcement authorities should also have suitably trained staff with the appropriate authority to deal with these challenges. If the evidence or circumstances (including mitigating circumstances) provide grounds for cancelling the PCN, then the enforcement authority should do so and let the

vehicle owner know. If the enforcement authority considers that there are no grounds for cancellation, it should tell the vehicle owner and explain its reasons.

 

Then again, it only says 'should' and not 'must'.

 

Location on PCN is only a recommendation and not a statutory requirement, that is why I think it is only a mitigating circumstance:-

 

45. The PCN must either be fixed to the vehicle or given to the person who appears to be in charge of that vehicle, although there are three exceptions to this 26 - see paragraph 47. The information that a PCN must27 contain is set

out in the Regulations. It is recommended that the PCN also gives:

· vehicle make and colour (if evident);

· detailed location of vehicle (full street name);

· the contravention code;

· observation start and finish times;

· PCN number (all PCNs should be uniquely identifiable);

· CEO’s identification number; and

· the vehicle’s tax disc number and expiry date.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Mightyacorn

[lamma]

The wrong location means the allegation is false - its that simple, you have been accused of something that did not happen hence no liability accrues. It is an error of fact that invalidates the PCN. People are getting too hung up on the regs in this instance.

[letsmakeamark]

Can you scan the back of your pcn. I need to see the wording on it ?

[zanmato]

Location on PCN is only a recommendation and not a statutory requirement, that is why I think it is only a mitigating circumstance.

 

Even if the location on a PCN is only a recommendation, if they DO put it on, it HAS to be correct... surely?

 

As Lamma says, I did not commit the offence that they are claiming.

 

 

Can you scan the back of your pcn. I need to see the wording on it ?

 

I will stick it on tonight but surely the location is enough?

[lamma]

there could be more ammo on the back, odds are they fail gen regs 3(2) (b)

[letsmakeamark]

It is not a offence. It is a contravention.

[lamma]

Its even less, its a Notice of an allegation of a contravention.