Am trying to deal with Lloyds TSB Overdrafts, Loan (with PPI) and Credit Card

[fastkam]

I have put off this for years but want to sort out once and for all and get on with my life.

 

According to my credit report I have some accounts in default:

 

Company: LLOYDS TSB BANK PLC

Account Type: Current Account - Overdraft

Started: 01/08/2005

Default Balance: £3,624

Current Balance: £3,722

Defaulted On: 26/05/2006

File Updated for the Period to: 03/02/2008

 

Company: LLOYDS TSB BANK PLC

Account Type: Current Account - Overdraft

Started: 01/07/2005

Default Balance: £3,807

Current Balance: £3,722

Defaulted On: 26/05/2006

File Updated for the Period to: 03/02/2008

 

Company: TESSERA

Account Type: Loan - Lloyds TSB (original loan amount was £7500 + £1500 loan protection)

Default Balance: £15,287

Current Balance: £15,420

Defaulted On: 26/05/2006

File Updated for the Period to: 27/02/2010

 

Company name: ARROW GLOBAL LIMITED

Account type: Bank (Lloyds Create Card - Mastercard)

Started: 01/01/2005

Default Balance: £5,750

Current Balance: £5,750

Defaulted On: 16/07/2006

File Updated for the Period to: 16/01/2010

 

All the above was applied for via online banking.

I know sometimes when you apply online, the bank sends you documents to sign and return.

I can't remember if I signed agreements or applications for the loans or credit card.

 

All I have are customer copies for the loan and credit card agreements.

The loan agreement states I took out loan protection but has no signature.

 

The credit card agreement has a signature on behalf of Lloyds TSB.

 

Phoenix/Tessera Recoveries submitted a claim via Southend County Court for £315.

I failed to reply thus resulting in a Notice of Issue of Warranty of Execution.

The debt is presently managed by Vilcol.

 

I can't apply for DRO (debt relief order) because the debts are over £15,000.

I am not interested in IVA as I have no income whatsoever.

 

I am prepared to go bankrupt but before I do,

I want to see if there are any other options.

 

Having read the forums,

I think I should consider making SAR (subject access request),

CCA (consumer credit act) request or request disclosure of documents under CPR (civil procedure rules) 31.16.

This might help me find out whether or not the debts are enforceable.

How should I proceed?

Shall I do all 3?

 

Another thing that might be a factor is that these defaults may be removed from my credit profile after a certain amount of time.

 

Irresponsible lending?

I was in vulnerable state at the time due to personal circumstances which had affected my mental and physical health.

 

One afternoon, I logged onto Lloyds TSB online banking and made a small request for £200 overdraft on one of my current accounts.

 

I had no history with the bank in terms of income as I was neither employed or unemployed so stated student as I was studying privately.

 

I had no income from a job and had only raised some money by selling some of my personal belongings on eBay.

 

I was granted a £200 overdraft by Lloyds.

 

However, all of this spiralled out of control when I tried making other applications whilst on Lloyds online banking.

 

In one session,

within an hour,

 

I had £3000 and £3500 new overdrafts approved on my current accounts,

 

a new credit card with a limit of £5000 and

 

a loan of £7500 which was only approved if I ticked the loan protection box.

I don't think I would have got the same if I walked in to my local branch asking for the same.

 

I will continue to read up on the forum and welcome advice.

 

My intention is to keep this thread updated with my progress as I am sure there are plenty of people like me

who get used to ignoring the debts and problems they cause.

 

Advice greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you

 

Just noticed that I joined this forum in Dec 2007.

At the time, I just did not have the confidence to deal with my debt problems and made a habit of avoiding them.

 

Also, the information on the forums was overwhelming and it was easier to do nothing.

 

I hope to get things sorted this time round.

[MARTIN3030]

Welcome back.

You will need to start threads in the respective forums.

[fastkam]

Welcome back.

You will need to start threads in the respective forums.

 

Thanks Martin.

 

Shall I move this thread to "General Debt Issues"

 

Kam

[dx100uk]

for a start.

get the ppi back on all of them if there

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/payment-protection-insurance-ppi/61081-ppi-some-notes-claimants.html

 

dx

[fastkam]

[reposted as previous posted in wrong forum]

 

I have put off this for years but want to sort out once and for all and get on with my life.

 

According to my credit report I have some accounts in default:

 

Company: LLOYDS TSB BANK PLC

Account Type: Current Account - Overdraft

Started: 01/08/2005

Default Balance: £3,624

Current Balance: £3,722

Defaulted On: 26/05/2006

File Updated for the Period to: 03/02/2008

 

Company: LLOYDS TSB BANK PLC

Account Type: Current Account - Overdraft

Started: 01/07/2005

Default Balance: £3,807

Current Balance: £3,722

Defaulted On: 26/05/2006

File Updated for the Period to: 03/02/2008

 

Company: TESSERA

Account Type: Loan - Lloyds TSB (original loan amount was £7500 + £1500 loan protection)

Default Balance: £15,287

Current Balance: £15,420

Defaulted On: 26/05/2006

File Updated for the Period to: 27/02/2010

 

Company name: ARROW GLOBAL LIMITED

Account type: Bank (Lloyds Create Card - Mastercard)

Started: 01/01/2005

Default Balance: £5,750

Current Balance: £5,750

Defaulted On: 16/07/2006

File Updated for the Period to: 16/01/2010

 

All the above was applied for via online banking. I know sometimes when you apply online, the bank sends you documents to sign and return. I can't remember if I signed agreements or applications for the loans or credit card.

 

All I have are customer copies for the loan and credit card agreements. The loan agreement states I took out loan protection but has no signature. The credit card agreement has a signature on behalf of Lloyds TSB.

 

Phoenix/Tessera Recoveries submitted a claim via Southend County Court for £315. I failed to reply thus resulting in a Notice of Issue of Warranty of Execution. The debt is presently managed by Vilcol.

 

I can't apply for DRO (debt relief order) because the debts are over £15,000. I am not interested in IVA as I have no income whatsoever. I am prepared to go bankrupt but before I do, I want to see if there are any other options.

 

Having read the forums, I think I should consider making SAR (subject access request), CCA (consumer credit act) request or request disclosure of documents under CPR (civil procedure rules) 31.16. This might help me find out whether or not the debts are enforceable. How should I proceed? Shall I do all 3?

 

Another thing that might be a factor is that these defaults may be removed from my credit profile after a certain amount of time.

 

Irresponsible lending? I was in vulnerable state at the time due to personal circumstances which had affected my mental and physical health. One afternoon, I logged onto Lloyds TSB online banking and made a small request for £200 overdraft on one of my current accounts. I had no history with the bank in terms of income as I was neither employed or unemployed so stated student as I was studying privately. I had no income from a job and had only raised some money by selling some of my personal belongings on eBay.

 

I was granted a £200 overdraft by Lloyds. However, all of this spiralled out of control when I tried making other applications whilst on Lloyds online banking. In one session, within an hour, I had £3000 and £3500 new overdrafts approved on my current accounts, a new credit card with a limit of £5000 and a loan of £7500 which was only approved if I ticked the loan protection box. I don't think I would have got the same if I walked in to my local branch asking for the same.

 

I will continue to read up on the forum and welcome advice. My intention is to keep this thread updated with my progress as I am sure there are plenty of people like me who get used to ignoring the debts and problems they cause.

 

I also have a friend who last year applied via Lloyds TSB online banking to have her credit card limit increased from £3000 to £15000. Her husband used the card online and paid the bills until recently when they split up, leaving her with the debts. She has been unemployed on DLA (disability living allowance) and incapacity benefit for the last 3 years. The only other income she has is £60 monthly from her pension annuity. She is struggling to pay off the debts which currently stands at £15,200. What options does she have? She has no assets or savings.

 

Advice greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you

[Craigbadger]

Hi,

tbh I think an sar is a good idea if you have a lot of history with 1 bank.

 

I recently did a lloyds and have been recieving bits gradually and there is a lot to take in,

 

but on loans alone 4k of mis sold ppi that I didn't know about.

 

Someone else will advise more.

[fastkam]

Thanks for your advice. I am using the templates found at:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/576-subject-access-request-debt-a-dca

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/190251-subject-access-request-template.html

 

I am writing to Lloyds TSB first. Do I need to write to Tessera and Arrow too as both accounts that are in default with them were originally Lloyds TSB loan and credit card?

[Craigbadger]

I think you just need to send to Lloyds at this stage.

[loobyloo85]

Hi

 

If you have no income, hence no surplus income to pay into an IVA or DMP,

then obviously these arent the routes for you.

 

 

However, as you say bankruptcy may be.

 

Do you have any assets of a high value?

 

 

Your assets such as property, car are at risk in bankruptcy.

 

 

Bankruptcy in your case should only take up to 12 months as you have no surplus to pay into an income payment order.

 

 

To set up your bankruptcy, you would need to find £600 for an upfront fee,

however if you are on benefits you can claim some of this back.

 

 

Bankruptcy may be advertised in the paper, and can have a stigma affecting future employment and credit.

 

You may want to take these issues into account before giong down this route x

[fastkam]

I made a complaint to Lloyds TSB accusing them of irresponsible lending.

I did this via the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS).

 

A complaint handler from Lloyds TSB then wrote to me as follows:

 

Dear....

 

Your Borrowing

 

Thank you for taking the time to contact the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS) about your complaint.

You should have received a letter from them explaining that they have asked us to contact you.

I have tried to call you but was unable to reach you.

Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience that we may have caused you.

 

Your concerns

 

My understanding of your complaint is you are unhappy:

 

• With the sale of a personal loan for £7,500.00 in January 2005.
  
• With the overdraft limits we agreed on your current account.
  

You believe that we were wrong to lend you this money as you were a student with no income

and you feel we agreed these facilities on the same day.

 

As the events in question date back to 2004, it has been difficult for me to establish exactly what happened.

I hope you will appreciate that I can only base my decision on the information we have.

We are not required by law, or good banking practice, to retain records indefinitely.

If you had raised your concerns sooner, we may have had more detailed records available.

 

In your letter to the FOS, you also refer to a credit card number 5400.

I have contacted our Card Services department and they have confirmed we have never issued credit cards starting with the prefix 5400.

 

However, I have checked your accounts and I can see that you began to make payments to a Lloyds TSB MasterCard on 14 December 2004.

Due to the passage of time I am currently unable to find the correct number.

If you have any further details or information that relate to a credit card that may have been held with us,

please let me know and I will be able to reconsider our position.

 

My review

 

As part of my review I have considered the following information:

On 13 January 2005 you applied for a loan of £7,500.00 using our Internet Banking Service.

We make every effort to ensure that we do not lend to customers who cannot afford to repay us.

 

We take into consideration how you manage your accounts with us, as well as information supplied to us by credit reference agencies.

 

When completing an application in one of our branches, or over the telephone,

we will collect details of your income and expenditure and help you decide how much you can afford.

 

When you apply for a loan using Internet Banking, and choose not to discuss your finances with a member of staff,

 

we assume that you have considered how much you want to borrow and how much you can afford to repay.

 

If you're unsure, you can complete and on-line affordability guide which will help you decide.

This is clearly sign-posted on our website, along with ways of discussing your finances in person.

 

Similarly, the overdraft applications appear to have been made through our Internet Banking Service.

However, if you can provide me with evidence that this was not, in fact, the case please let me know.

 

I can see the overdraft facility of £2,000.00 was applied to both your current accounts on 10 December 2004.

 

On the 6th January 2005 these facilities were increased to £3,500.00.

You chose to make use of these credit facilities and you have had full value for the transactions you made.

 

In these circumstances we normally expect our customers to pay the money back.

 

I have checked our records and I am unable to see you have held a student account with us.

 

Moreover, he activity on your accounts appears to be inconsistent with what we would expect from a student.

 

Between October and December 2004 some £4,000 was paid into your account 77**** 1******9 from Amazon Services EU-UK.

 

During the same period some £3,700 was paid inyour account 30**** 0*****90 in deposits, BACS payments and internet transfers.

 

With the above in mind, I can find nothing to suggest that we acted inappropriately when your lending was agreed during 2004 and 2005.

 

I hope I've explained why I believe we haven't made a mistake.

 

I appreciate my decision may not be the one you wished for, but I hope you understand the reasons for it.

 

What happens next?

 

I appreciate the trouble you have taken to get in touch with us and I hope I've explained matters.

 

However, if you'd like to talk to me or provide me with any additional information you can call me on **** *** ****.

 

I'll keep m file open for eight weeks from the date of this letter.

 

If I'm unable to help, you can return to the FOS for assistance,

although hopefully this will not be necessary.

 

Thank you for taking the time to raise your concerns through the FOS.

 

Yours sincerely

 

***********

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/521/lloydschecksdsar.jpg/

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/telephonecallloandsar.jpg/

 

I've got lots information from Lloyds DSAR team including agreements for credit card and personal loan with PPI

I did not find any agreements that I had signed.

 

I have made a separate complaint to Lloyds TSB with regards to PPI via the FOS.

The focus of this thread is irresponsible lending.

 

There are also documents that make reference to my multiple requests via internet banking for increases in overdraft on both current accounts.

 

As the moment I am preparing a reply to the Lloyds TSB complaint handler, after which I should have a final response from them in writing.

 

I also spoke to the complaint handler on the phone and will add the details of this conversation to this thread.

 

I did the DSAR data subject access request last April.

 

After having spoken to the complaint handler,

it seems that today, a lot of information is no longer being held by Lloyds TSB as the complaint handler said that she could not find records of the credit card I had with them a

nd neither their recoveries team.

 

She confirmed that the card services department told her that they have never issued cards with the prefix 5400.

 

She said she would like a copy of the credit card agreement I have and offered to send me a SAE or I could send them to her by fax or via a local branch.

 

I have been receiving calls from NCO Europe recently with regards to my outstanding credit card debt.

 

She said that Lloyds TSB are not at fault because I chose to apply via Internet Banking and not via Branch or Telephone.

 

Everytime I asked her a question, she would not give me a straight answer or would interrupt me.

 

She said that she agreed that in a sense Lloyds TSB gave me the money (overdrafts, loan, credit card the same day)

 

because I did not call into a branch but made my applications via their Internet Banking service.

 

She says that all my applications including the ones for personal loan and credit card were approved online so all I had to do with simply sign and return agreements.

She says today you can get a loan via Internet Banking without signing an agreement.

 

She said that no member of staff was involved in my applications, it was between myself and Internet Banking.

 

She said that her letter wasn't a final reply.

 

I asked her some questions and she said that with internet banking there are a variety of methods used

and that these systems are setup by Lloyds TSB and make decisions on applications on behalf of Lloyds TSB.

 

I am now going through the letter:

 

My understanding of your complaint is you are unhappy:

• With the sale of a personal loan for £7,500.00 in January 2005.
  
• With the overdraft limits we agreed on your current accounts.
  

I am also unhappy about the sale of PPI to the personal loan of £7,500.00 mentioned above as this added an additional £1,547.14 to the overall loan.

 

I am also unhappy about the credit card with a limit of £5000 which was also approved by Lloyds TSB and their Internet Banking service.

 

You believe that we were wrong to lend you this money as you were a student with no income and you feel we agreed these facilities on the same day.

 

Pretty much as outlined in my complaint made via the FOS as follows:

Complaint relates to irresponsible and unaffordable lending of a credit card, overdrafts and a loan all at the same time. Consumer was never able to afford the repayments as they were a student.

 

I would simply add that it was not at the same time but around the same time i.e. between 13/12/2004 and 02/01/2005. But more importantly, between 23/12/2004 and 02/01/2005 as within this time both overdrafts were increased and now totalled £6,500.00 as well as credit card with limit of £5,000.00 and personal loan of £7,500.00 (excluding PPI) being approved.

 

If you had raised your concerns sooner, we may have had more detailed records available.

True, I was reluctant to raise my concerns as I suffered from a lot of increasing fear and anxiety since borrowing the money from Lloyds TSB.

 

This relates to a personal psychological trauma suffered six months before I applied to borrow money from Lloyds TSB and has only recently been recognised by myself and my GP. In hindsight, I can see that borrowing money from Lloyds TSB only served to exacerbate my mental health. I have some records as I made a DSAR data subject access request last April.

 

In your letter to the fos, you also refer to a credit card number 5400******188950.

 

I have contacted our Card Services department and they have confirmed we have never issued credit cards starting with the prefix 5400.

 

However, I have checked your accounts and I can see that you began to make payments to a Lloyds TSB MasterCard on 14 December 2004. Due to the passage of time I am currently unable to find the correct number.

 

If you have any further details or information that relate to a credit card that may have been held with us, please let me know and I will be able to reconsider our position.

 

I have the card agreement and previous statement that I can make available to Lloyds TSB.

 

On 13 January 2005 you applied for a loan of £7,500.00 using our Internet Banking Service. We make every effort to ensure that we do not lend to customers who cannot afford to repay us.

 

We take into consideration how you manage your accounts with us, as well as information supplied to us by credit reference agencies. When completing an application in one of our branches, or over the telephone, we will collect details of your income and expenditure and help you decide how much you can afford.

 

I did not apply for the loan on 13 January 2005, that was date the loan was actually provided. When I checked information from the DSAR team, I found that credit reference agencies had not been used when I made application for overdrafts on 13/12/2004.

 

The DSAR show that I made an online application on 23/12/2004 for £15k which was declined and immediately a 2nd application for £7,500.00 with loan protection.

 

I remember the online application process would not offer me the loan when I tried without payment protection. Only when I opted-in for payment protection was I offered the loan.

 

Subsequently, I was advised to make a phone call to Lloyds TSB and sign and return a credit agreement in the post. The information obtained from my DSAR included the credit card agreement but no details of the online application process.

 

When you apply for a loan using Internet Banking, and choose not to discuss your finances with a member of staff, we assume that you have considered how much you want to borrow and how much you can afford to repay.

 

If you're unsure, you can complete and on-line affordability guide which will help you decide. This is clearly sign-posted on our website, along with ways of discussing your finances in person.

 

Its not that I chose not to discuss my finances with a member of staff - I never considered it. I didn't need to as Lloyds TSB provided and online application process which I stumbled across when I checking my bank account using the Internet Banking service.

 

There was a drop down menu next to my account with the option of applying for an overdraft. Before making this and subsequent applications for credit, I had never considered or ever borrowed money from Lloyds TSB. I don't recall seeing an on-line affordability guide back in December 2004 but perhaps there is one today.

 

In any case, Lloyds TSB by assuming that I have considered how much I want to borrow and I much you can afford to repay simply in my opinion demonstrates irresponsible lending and is contrary to the claims that "We make every effort to ensure that we do not lend to customers who cannot afford to repay us."

 

I can see the overdraft facility of £2,000.00 was applied to both your current accounts on 10 December 2004. On the 6th January 2005 these facilities were increased to £3,500.00. You chose to make use of these credit facilities and you have had full value for the transactions you made. In these circumstances we normally expect our customers to pay the money back.

 

This information is not accurate according to information I received from Lloyds TSB DSAR team. I first applied for overdrafts via Internet Banking for both accounts on 13/12/2004. I began just asking for £100 overdraft and was surprised that I was accepted.

 

Next day 14/12/2004, I have £2000.00 overdraft on both accounts. I tried to apply for further increases on both accounts but I was declined.

 

According to DSAR I again made requests via internet banking and overdrafts were increased on both accounts on 12/01/2005 to £3,000.00 and £3,500.00

 

I found a copy of the credit card agreement which I signed on 02/01/2005 and signed on behalf of Lloyds TSB on 11/01/2005. This relates to the credit card with £5,000.00 limit.

 

I found the personal loan agreement which I signed on 11/01/2005 and was signed on behalf of Lloyds TSB on 24/12/2004. This relates to the personal loan of £7,500.00 and £1547.14 optional payment protection insurance.

 

I have checked our records and I am unable to see you have held a student account with us. Moreover, he activity on your accounts appears to be inconsistent with what we would expect from a student.

 

Between October and December 2004 some £4,000 was paid into your account 77**** 1******9 from Amazon Services EU-UK. During the same period some £3,700 was paid inyour account 30**** 0*****90 in deposits, BACS payments and internet transfers.

 

I'm not sure how relevant this is in terms of Lloyds TSB and their Internet Banking service deciding to lend me £19,000 within a few weeks. I never said that I had a student account. Also, I was not aware that I would be expected to have a student account if I was a student.

 

I had these personal accounts opened whilst I was at college. I was not a university student at the time. If the activity on my accounts prior to applying for credit from Lloyds TSB was inconsistent with that of a student, why did they lend me the money?

 

I never claimed to be employed and I never stated any income. It was Lloyds TSB and the parameters set up by them for their Internet Banking service which has caused them to lend me money.

 

The money that came into my account between October 2004 and December 2004 were from the sale of my personal belongings including books, DVDs, CDs, clothing. I came back to the UK depressed and I had no money.

 

I was simply selling my stuff to pay outstanding bills, rent and I had started drinking and smoking heavily. Why hasn't a complaint handler recognised the amount being paid out of the account during the same period also.

 

Did Lloyds TSB use this account activity for the basis of lending me money?

 

You only have to google: 'lloyds tsb irresponsible lending' and you can find many new articles and cases of Lloyds TSB irresponsible lending practices around the time of 2004/05 relating to customer in branch and via their Internet Banking service.

 

I have been referred to a psychologist by my GP and trying to get my life back together. Getting the best outcome for myself is important to me. I remember back in 2006, someone advise me to go bankrupt and never had the courage to do anything.

 

I made my initial post on this site last April. I made DSAR request last year but I was hopeless to act further. Its only after several breakdowns that I have finally accepted that I have mental problem and getting help with it. My debts are only one of many issues I need to deal with.

 

The FOS have advised me that its best if I can resolve with Lloyds TSB so I have to reply to complaint handler and then await her final decision. If I am not satisfied with her decision, then I can get the FOS involved further.

 

Some links related to Lloyds TSB and irresponsible lending:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/2915822/Banks-face-crackdown-on-irresponsible-lending.html

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/bank-watchdog-investigates-irresponsible-lloyds-lending-6146457.html

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/real_story/4724501.stm

 

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cardsloans/article-1590067/How-the-Lloyds-TSB-scandal-came-to-light.html

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/real_story/4111609.stm

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3906313.stm

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/real_story/4728741.stm

[MARTIN3030]

Thanks for the update.

In your SAR did you request everything that you were needing ?

It is strange that they are saying they cannot find any trace of these accounts,although not suprising since Lloyds have shown many times they have problems complying with a SAR.

Before handing this to the FOS you need to be sure that you have a good case and supporting info-the absence of docs makes this a problem.

Will read through your thread again and see what is the best way forward from here.

If anyone else following has thoughts-please share them.

[fastkam]

I sent a letter to the data controller last year as follows:

 

Account numbers: xxxxxx xxxxxxx, xxxxxx xxxxxxxx, xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx

 

Please supply me with all the data that you hold on me.

This includes in particular, but is not limited to, the following:-

1. The original signed, executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time the account was opened.

 

2. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

 

3. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with ORIGINAL CREDITOR.

 

4. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

 

5. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

 

6. Details of any collection charges added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

 

7. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

 

8. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

 

9. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

 

10. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

I have enclosed the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return.

 

However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

Because I no longer bank with Lloyds TSB, I was asked to nominate a local branch where I could pick up all the documents. I received the following:

 

1. Bank statements for both current accounts
   
2. Credit card statements
   
3. Personal loan statements
   
4. Copies of signed agreements for credit card
   
5. Copies of signed agreements personal loan
   
6. Application data relating to my request for increases in overdrafts via Internet banking
   
7. Application data relating to my request for personal loan via Internet banking shows that my loan application was processed the same as my overdraft application i.e. no credit checks. Scanned page 1 + Scanned page 2
   
8. Records of telephone calls including the call I was requested to make to Lloyds TSB when I applied for the personal loan. I can't remember why I had to call them because I was never provided with the loan until I sent the agreements back. The call was made on the 13th January 2005 but I had already signed the agreement on 11th January 2005. Was it just a security check?
    
   

I suspect the application data for the credit card dropped off the system before I made my request.

 

The complaint handler had some information relating to my current account and personal loan but nothing on the credit card.

 

I also know that when I defaulted - the current account overdrafts and personal loan debts were combined and sold on.

 

The credit card debt was sold on separately.

 

I recall the complaint handler telling me that most of the information has probably dropped off the system as its been over 5 years hence,

their card services department could not find records of my credit card.

 

The Lloyds TSB complaint handler who is dealing with my complaint against them for irresponsible lending

asked me to send her all the documents I received from their DSAR team last year

along with a reply to her letter before she gives me her final decision.

 

I am a bit weary of her request, but on the other hand she can only make her decision based on the information she has available and I'm sure if the FOS did get involved, It would not help my case that I did not provide her with the information.

 

What information do you I give her?

 

I was thinking information that is specific to my arguements namely examples of application data when and where credit checks were not made, income and expenditure information not requested, credit card and personal loan agreements.

 

There's about a thousand pages that would need to be photocopied.

 

Should I continue to try to resolve with Lloyds TSB complaint handler and give her copies of what I have. She could not get hold of some documents because after x years they drop off the system.

 

She confirmed that she did not have my credit card statements or agreements. She would not tell me if she had application data relating to my internet banking.

 

I guess I did my DSAR just before the records were dropped off the system. But she has my bank statements because she makes reference to them in her letter.

 

She just say send me all that you have. If I give her documents, she could re-consider before giving me final decision or shall I just goto FOS ?

[cerberusalert]

There is no need to send anything back to her, if she needs the information she should retrieve it from their data controller the same as you had to. If they cannot locate any agreements any more it would put them in a sticky wicket as to supplying reconstituted agreements as they will have nothing to reference it to.

 

I would tell them you have exhausted their complaints procedures and now you are putting into the hands of FOS.

[the_shadow]

Ok, just responding to your PM.

 

As Cerb has stated the onus isnt on you to supply anything but if it strengthens your case then it makes sense to supply it, if you go to the FOS they will ask for everything you can give them to support your case.

 

Right.. I've had a quick look back, firstly accounts taken out online after December 2004 just use a digital signature and that IS sufficient to count as a binding agreement between the parities so long as the t&c are shown alongside the application. The fact they seem unable to find much detail about these accounts is worrying for them, not for you

 

As to their cop-out saying its up to a the customer to decide how much they can afford to borrow and apply then its no wonder the country went tits up.. some form of checking should have taken place other than a simple check for a default or not.

 

Businesses should keep financial records for 6 years AFTER the business relationship has finished, clearly this is not the case here.

 

I would follow cerbs advise

 

S.

[citizenB]

Responding to S.O.S

 

I agree with the two previous posters, it isnt for you to provide them with the information that has already been supplied to you through their Data Controller.

 

Perhaps you could just bullet point the information you DO have and confirm that as it was provided to you via their Data Controller, she too, could obtain that information from the same person.

 

You could however, photocopy the statement bearing the number she claims she is unable to find!

 

Point out that the monies deposited to the account was from the sale of your personal possessions.. which is consistent with being a student!!

 

If you want to pop a draft of your response onto the forum, then we can help you tidy it up before sending.

 

[fastkam]

I agree now not to both arguing with the bank and just to request a final decision in writing so the FOS can get involved. Sending letter as follows to the bank:

 

xxxx November 2011

 

Lloyds Banking Group

Customer Services

xxxxxxx

xxxxxxx

 

Your reference: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Dear xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,

 

Thank you for your response but I do not agree with your decision.

 

I do not have confidence in Lloyds TSB being able to help me any further.

 

Please write to me with your final decision and/or fax me on xxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Yours sincerely,

 

XXXXXXXXXXXX

 

Ok, just responding to your PM.

 

As Cerb has stated the onus isnt on you to supply anything but if it strengthens your case then it makes sense to supply it, if you go to the FOS they will ask for everything you can give them to support your case.

 

Right.. I've had a quick look back, firstly accounts taken out online after December 2004 just use a digital signature and that IS sufficient to count as a binding agreement between the parities so long as the t&c are shown alongside the application. The fact they seem unable to find much detail about these accounts is worrying for them, not for you

 

As to their cop-out saying its up to a the customer to decide how much they can afford to borrow and apply then its no wonder the country went tits up.. some form of checking should have taken place other than a simple check for a default or not.

 

Businesses should keep financial records for 6 years AFTER the business relationship has finished, clearly this is not the case here.

 

I would follow cerbs advise

 

S.

 

Thank you for your input.

 

I've decided to not to send any information from my DSAR to Lloyds TSB.

I would rather pass it onto the FOS as they are better placed to use the information.

 

The FOS say that although it looks like final decision has already been made, it is in fact a two tier response.

Therefore, I have to request them to make a final decision and I have drafted a letter.

 

I have the agreements and T&Cs for credit card and personal loan. I guess I should provide these to the FOS ?

 

There were no default at the time of me applying for credit but as the application data shows,

there was a lack of checks when I made multiple applications for overdrafts, personal loans and credit card.

 

http://imageshack.us/f/521/lloydschecksdsar.jpg/

 

I checked with the FSA and they said the bank only has to keep records for the minimum period of 5 years so its plausible that they do not have all the records.

 

However, in response to my complaint they have made reference to information that they are holding which is over 5 years old.

I am therefore led to believe that they are using information selectively in response to my complaint and asking me for all the information I have to help themselves.

[cerberusalert]

The FSA are partially correct, as far as they are concerned yes the bank only has to keep the data for five years to comply with the Money Laundering Act, however under the Data Protection Act they have to keep the information for six years from when the a/c is closed.

[citizenB]

As far as the FOS and information are concerned, you will need to provide anything that will back up your claim. So perhaps when you have detailed your complaint to them, you can let us know and we can advise what information you might need to provide

[fastkam]

The FSA are partially correct, as far as they are concerned yes the bank only has to keep the data for five years to comply with the Money Laundering Act, however under the Data Protection Act they have to keep the information for six years from when the a/c is closed.

 

Thank you all. The six years is interesting because I asked the FSA and they said 5 years but I did not ask the Information Commissioner about requirements under the data protection act until now.

 

I contacted the ICO and they referred me to the following link:

 

http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/the_guide/information_standards/principle_5.aspx

 

My personal accounts with overdrafts and loan accounts were closed on 19/05/2006 and 20/05/2006. Therefore, 5 years has definitely lapsed. I am looking to find information that clearly states 6 years.

[cerberusalert]

I think it comes under the Statute of Limitations Act.

[fastkam]

I think it comes under the Statute of Limitations Act.

 

I'm not quite sure now. I contacted the ICO again.

 

I spoke to the FSA on the phone and they said that in my case the bank is not obliged to keep records longer than 5 years.

 

I gave the example that I was provided with a loan 7 years ago. Only 3 years ago the bank was pursuing me for repayments of the loan before they sold it on.

 

The FSA person says in this case its still 5 years record keeping required even if this means the bank no longer holds records of statements older than 5 years or even the original credit agreement.

 

This would explain why the complaint handler that some records like from their Consumer Debt Recovery Department and not other like original credit agreements.

 

I contacted the OFT but they kept referring me to Consumer Direct who refer me back to FSA. The OFT does have a Credit Fitness Team who you can write to but they are still dealing with enquiries from August.

 

The Statute of Limitation Act is interesting but how could this act be used in requiring the bank to hold all my information for the last 6 years ? It seemed to be more to do with when you are being chased for debts. Lloyds TSB sold on my debts to Tessera and Arrow Global.

[Guest]

fast

you mentioned irresponsible lending. if not seen already, this is for eg the current oft guide re 'irresponsible lending' @ post 118.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?84273-OFT-debt-collection-guidance/page6

Edited November 14, 2011 by Ford
typo

[fastkam]

Thank you everybody for your input. I will now wait for a final decision letter from Lloyds TSB.

 

In the meantime I will check the OFT Irresponsible Lending Guide and go over all the information I got from Lloyds TSB DSAR and try to prepare for FOS.

 

Some more useful links with regards to irresponsible lending on FOS site also:

 

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/financial-hardship-unaffordable-lending.htm

 

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/97/97-complaints-by-students.html#979

 

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/59/59-banking.htm

[citizenB]

I think it comes under the Statute of Limitations Act.

 

 

Money Laundering and Tax laws I think..

 

Finally, key documents/application forms etc must be kept until 5 years after that business relationship has ended. This is a requirement of The Money Laundering Regulations 1993, 2003 and 2007 and The Civil Evidence Act 1995.

 

 

 

Document Retention

 

According to sections 221 and 222 of the Companies Act 1985, a public company is required to maintain records for a period of six years (section 222(5)(b).

 

As a loan agreement is active until the agreement is terminated, I would suggest that all the payment records (and other documents making up the file - including the agreement/application etc) would be "live" until the account is paid, or terminated - thus, the full file should be retained for at least six years after that.

 

This interpretation fits in with Inland Revenue legislation that requires prime documents to be retained for a period of six years - AFTER THE END OF THE RELEVANT ACCOUNTING PERIOD. That would mean some files need to be retained for up to seven years. The relevant legislation is found in Schedule 18 of the Finance Act 1998 (paragraph 21) - of particular significance is sub-paragraph (6) which states:

 

"The duty to preserve records under this paragraph includes a duty to preserve all supporting documents relating to the items mentioned in sub-paragraph (5)(a) and (b)."

 

I would suggest that where a loan has been taken out to repay an earlier agreement, at the very least, a copy of the original agreement should be kept - although this is something that a court may need to rule on.

 

Finally, key documents/application forms etc must be kept until 5 years after that business relationship has ended. This is a requirement of The Money Laundering Regulations 1993, 2003 and 2007.

 

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/72876-mercers-barclaycard-12.html#post1755248

[fastkam]

Will look into this. Thank you.