Will she go to jail?

[sar2004]

Hi All

You folks have been good to me in the past on this forum and I have a friend in a slightly different situation and she doesnt have internet so I said i would post and see what comes back.

 

She wasnt working approx 8 years ago. She was a fulltime carer for her daughter who has special needs who was out of school at the time as education couldnt find appropriate school place.

Her daughter gets full rate DLA for mobility and care - she is really disabled so because of that she could claim carers allowance.

 

Once her daughter did get a school place she started part time work which over the years led to more hours until it was full time.

 

Late last week she told me she had a letter from the Fraud Investigation Service saying she was invited to an IUC because

"we believe there are grounds for suspecting that you may have comitted a criminal offence in relation to a benefit claim because of your income"

 

Now she didnt tell the carers allowance people she was working.

I know its wrong and she knows its wrong.

She knows there is no defence and she has been a complete idiot.

She said she will tell them the truth at the interview as she is sick of living a lie. She says the reason she did this was she has debts of almost 50K and the bailifss were at the door and she couldnt cope loosing the money and had no idea what to do so just ignored everything and carried on.

I do know for a fact that this bit is true as I was once there when a bailiff visited so thats not made up.

She has said she will do anything to avoid court. She is happy to pay the money back-basically she will ditch all her other debts as this is more important.

She will be over the moon with a caution and repayment ut she is terrified of going to court.

The reason is her job requires her to have a clean record - they will accept a caution but someone in her office attended court for an offence and was found guilty and received a conditional discharge and a week after that in work they were told they could not be employed as they would not pass the employments checks - she works in an office that manages data for the defence industry so thats why they so strict.

 

She said she will informe them of this at the interview as if she looses this job apart from loosing her home and being in even more debt she will loose her job and therefore not be able to pay them a decent amount back so its counter productive really although she understands she doesnt want to be seen as "getting away with it"

That coupled with the fact her daughter has such severe needs makes me wonder what the Fraud Team will do.

 

She is getting solicitor appointment but she cant even afford that so as she says she will probably have to attend alone.

 

Would like to give her some ideas about possible outcome of this so she can face up to it.

She said they still paying her Carers allowance and i think she should ring them to stop it but then what should she say the reason is...she will then be dropping herself in it anyway so i have kept my mouth shut about that advice.

 

Please help thanks so much xxxxx

[paulb1310]

Without wishing to sound nasty your friend is only making matters worse by continuing to get the Carer's Allowance when she knows she is not entitled to it. If you step back and think what a Court would make of this if she ended up there ..? What happens depends to some extent on the amount involved. She may get a caution and an administrative penalty but she really should get some advice.

[jabba jones]

These are the basic guidelines:

 

Overpayment over £2000 – Repayment & attempted prosecution.

 

Overpayment less than £2000 but offence not admitted – Repayment, administrative Penalty (30% fine) & Departmental caution.

 

Overpayment less than £2000 but offence admitted – Repayment & Departmental caution.

 

The departmental caution is kept on file for 5 years. It is NOT a criminal record & does not show up on any checks.

 

The mitigation will probably have no effect on the benefit decision or the amount of the overpayment, but obviously the sooner she closes her claim the less the overpayment will be. Although I would have thought the fraud investigator should already have suspended any further payments.

[sar2004]

Ok - just given her your comments over the phone.

She says her last carers allowance payment was 2 weeks ago and she got the letter late last week.

She knows its the right thing to do to cancel the claim but is worried on the right way to go about it - not wanting to make matters worse.

I said perhaps she could just say that she has a fraud interview and she isnt sure if she is entitled so wants to cancel the claim on that basis.

In terms of amount she doesnt know but says it is almost certainly more than £2000 not more than 6000 though from a rough calculation.

She is fully aware of the offence she has comitted and knows she is wrong.

She is prepared to take it on the chin so to speak and not come out with loads about what a hard life she has had but all she said she wants to do is deal with it as soon as possible and keep her job.

She HAS spoken to someone in HR about the situation and they were great about it but said that if things did go to a court prosecution then she would be dismissed as her clearance is part of her contract so she knows for certain.

The HR person said that if it helps at all she can say her employer will be able to deduct repayments for them from her salary - bit more of a guarrantee they will get the money back I suppose.

 

My personal view is she should stop the claim ASAP.

Be honest n the interview

offer the deduction from salary

Explain that she will be unemployed if she is prosectuted.

They may listen they may not but even though its important to them to prosecute as a crime has been comitted surely its also important for them to get the money back swiftly and avoid costs.

She has no criminal record whatsoever - not even a speeding fine so she says so this is really a first offence.

[jabba jones]

What you say is common sense & I agree with most of it, however the rules for working & claiming are set in stone, there is no grey area. If she has earned above & worked over the Carers Allowance limits there will be an overpayment.

 

Like most civil service departments they are now stats & target driven.

 

The prosecution target is very important & increasingly difficult to reach, therefore from what you say I would expect that after a benefit decision has been made, (this will take months) the case will be passed to the departments solicitors branch who will have the final say on prosecution & whether it is in the public's interest.

[sar2004]

right so if i understand this correctly.

She will go to the interview

They will then send all the info to the solicitor who will decide to prosecute or not but given the likely amounts its going to be repayment and court?

 

She cant understand that they wont consider her employment situation.

I must admit it seems silly because there is a chance they wont get a penny.

She has said that if they are intent on prosectution she may as well go to jail as she has nothing left to loose then and no way to pay the money back if she looses her job. She was upset though when she was saying that.

I did wonder if she could say to them that would they consider a payment probation period but i just dunno how flexible these people are.

Say for example she agrees with them to pay 200 a month. She has to stick to that and it is reviewed every X months and if she does not stick to this agreement then they go ahead and prosecute.

To me that gives her the chance to show she has learned her lesson and will pay back every penny. To them it means they get their money, save cost and still have an option of prosecution if needed.

Mind you i am no solicitor so who knows!? Im probably talking nonsense.

 

So thoughts on the above please you lot - I would appreciate that.

 

Other questions are:

1. If she admits to all and co operates how long is it likely to take (roughly) for her to get a court date. She is thinking how many months she will be able to work

2. What are the potential outcomes of court - how likely is jail, suspended sentence etc??

 

Thanks for all your opinions and thoughts!!! x

[Helen2264]

right so if i understand this correctly.

She will go to the interview

They will then send all the info to the solicitor who will decide to prosecute or not but given the likely amounts its going to be repayment and court?

 

She cant understand that they wont consider her employment situation.

I must admit it seems silly because there is a chance they wont get a penny.

She has said that if they are intent on prosectution she may as well go to jail as she has nothing left to loose then and no way to pay the money back if she looses her job. She was upset though when she was saying that.

I did wonder if she could say to them that would they consider a payment probation period but i just dunno how flexible these people are.

Say for example she agrees with them to pay 200 a month. She has to stick to that and it is reviewed every X months and if she does not stick to this agreement then they go ahead and prosecute.

To me that gives her the chance to show she has learned her lesson and will pay back every penny. To them it means they get their money, save cost and still have an option of prosecution if needed.

Mind you i am no solicitor so who knows!? Im probably talking nonsense.

 

So thoughts on the above please you lot - I would appreciate that.

 

Other questions are:

1. If she admits to all and co operates how long is it likely to take (roughly) for her to get a court date. She is thinking how many months she will be able to work

2. What are the potential outcomes of court - how likely is jail, suspended sentence etc??

 

Thanks for all your opinions and thoughts!!! x

 

I don't think she will go to jail she must admit to what she has done and offer to repay all the money I doubt they will stop her working because they will have to pay her jsa allowance.

 

She just need to be very honest and make sure she tell them she will pay everything back I doubt she is the only one that has been in that situation the dwp will have come across many.

 

wish your friend well

[ErikaPNP]

It's impossible to say really how likely it will be for her to be convicted, as this is something that the court would decide based upon all of the evidence from both the prosecution and the defence - if it gets that far. It is not for the fraud investigators to decide whether to take court action.

 

If an overpayment as the result of fraud is in excess of £2000 then they must pass the case to the solicitors to consider prosecution; the fraud investigators cannot enter into a bargain with your friend such as a payment probation period, as they do not have the authority to decide whether prosecution is going to take place. Any overpayment over £2000, I believe is referred to DWP solicitors. The DWP solicitors will look at the case and decide if there is a good chance of conviction, and whether or not it would be in the public interest to prosecute.

 

However she should mention any mitigating circumstances so that the solicitors can take all of this into account.

[sar2004]

but during her interview she could mention her job and offers of repayment and i guess cause they will record it then the solicitors will hear it anyway as part of the evidence.

Even if the fraud people cant make a decision she should mention it all anyways right?

 

Any ideas on how long from an IUC to gettng a court date (lets assume they decide to go down that road for now)

[Animal Lover]

I would estimate anything from 6 months to a year before a court appearance, if indeed, that is the outcome. It will probably take 3 months minimum before she is informed of the outcome/overpayment, it then takes some time for the case to be prepared for prosecution and for the departments solicitors to complete their side of things. Your friend knows she is no longer entitled to Carers Allowance - phone up and stop the claim now.

[ErikaPNP]

but during her interview she could mention her job and offers of repayment and i guess cause they will record it then the solicitors will hear it anyway as part of the evidence.

Even if the fraud people cant make a decision she should mention it all anyways right?

 

 

Most definately. Admitting the fraud, and showing remorse as well as a willingness to repay will go in her favour, as will stopping the CA claim straight away; that alone won't stop a prosecution if the Solicitors decide it is in the public interest to prosecute and are certain of securing a conviction, but it will be taken into consideration on balance.

 

She is allowed to earn up to £95 per week without affecting her CA entitlement, so the overpayment may not be as much as she thinks if her earnings have been below this.

[jabba jones]

Some excellent advice above.

 

As I presume it's just with a DWP investigator the IUC could last as little as 15/20 mins but depending on what is said, if a solicitor is present, if your friend needs a break etc etc, it could last a while longer. In most basic working cases they should be able to do it in less than an hour.

 

One other thing, from tomorrow a new rule comes into effect.

 

It's a new punishment for benefit fraud cases, where some of the offence has taken place after 1/4/10, so if she can stop any further payments of Carers Allowance being paid, it will stop this action from being looked at:-

 

---------------

 

From 1 April 2010 the Department will also be able to apply a 'One Strike' four week loss of benefit sanction to those who have been convicted of benefit fraud for the first time, as well as to those who have accepted an administrative penalty or caution.

 

 

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2010-03-17b.322732.h

 

 

Which basically means anyone who commits benefit fraud will not receive benefit for 4 weeks after a decision has been made on their claim, although I believe there are certain cases such as where children are involved where this won't happen, but I'm not sure exactely how this will work yet.

Edited March 31, 2010 by jabba jones

[Animal Lover]

I know this is going to sound harsh but I'm struggling to understand your friends way of thinking so here goes anyway: your friend knew she was not entitled to continue to claim Carers Allowance because of her earnings and was also aware that a criminal record would mean losing her job....... She took a chance and has been caught, why does she now think the DWP should treat her differently to any other person who has committed benefit fraud?

[sar2004]

Hi all

not sure who to respond to first..

Animal Lover I do agree with what you are saying. Im pretty sure deep down she must have known.

I dont think she believes she should be treated differently as such - Im quite sure they wont treat her differently but I guess she is struggling to see the point in a court conviction if it means the DWP wont get their money back.

I mean there is a big difference in someone working and being able to pay 100 a month say off a debt to someone on benefits who can only pay a couple of pounds - does that make sense?

Yes I agree it is in the public interest to secure a conviction as a crime has been comitted but is it in the public interest for someone to loose their job and essentially end up on housing benefit, council tax benefit and whatever else she would be entitled to. She woul end up costing the government MORE than she would be paying back.

 

She said she knows she has to be punished and that she will pay evry penny back she simply wants to keep her job.

[sar2004]

Ok just spoken to her on the phone and she has stopped her claim.

They did ask a lot of questions but she has said she has a fraud interview and that she does not want to continue comitting an offence.

They said that her claim hadnt been stopped anyway and she could continue pending outcome of interview. She said no to that but she is following up in writing.

Bit odd that they havent stopped her claim already i think but at least she has done that now.

 

Ok so I was a bit mean on the phone and told her that its more than likely cause of amount and length of time it will be a prosectution.

I think she needs to stop kidding herself and face it.

She has solicitors appointment next Thursday to see what they can do to help.

 

Anyone with any experience of this can you give a clue what she is looking at court wise - someone in our local paper was claiming jobseekers and working as a hairdresser and that was huge amounts of money - about 18K I think and they ended up with one of those tags on their leg so taking that into account I dont think she is likely to go to prison - could be wrong.

[Like-Im-Being-Ripped-Off]

Hi all

not sure who to respond to first..

Animal Lover I do agree with what you are saying. Im pretty sure deep down she must have known.

I dont think she believes she should be treated differently as such - Im quite sure they wont treat her differently but I guess she is struggling to see the point in a court conviction if it means the DWP wont get their money back.

I mean there is a big difference in someone working and being able to pay 100 a month say off a debt to someone on benefits who can only pay a couple of pounds - does that make sense?

Yes I agree it is in the public interest to secure a conviction as a crime has been comitted but is it in the public interest for someone to loose their job and essentially end up on housing benefit, council tax benefit and whatever else she would be entitled to. She woul end up costing the government MORE than she would be paying back.

 

She said she knows she has to be punished and that she will pay evry penny back she simply wants to keep her job.

 

SAR2004

What about her paying a full payment of what she owes might help.

atleast that would help her case. if she can't afford that get a loan or barrow from a friend or family member.

LIBRO

[sar2004]

do you think that would help her avoid prosectution if she paid it in full?

I know she wont get a loan- credit dreadful im assuming given some of the DCA letters I have seen at hers.

Dont think her parents have any money to give her.

I guess she needs to find out how much they think she owes and maybe find it somehow.

I could lend her 2k - I have lent her money before and had it back so im ok with that.

Perhaps if she cant make a full payment a really big payment (like 2K) off it would show willing??

Im hoping prison isnt the case for the sake of the little one!

[Like-Im-Being-Ripped-Off]

SAR2004

do you think that would help her avoid prosectution if she paid it in full? I THINK SOMETING WILL HAPPEN NOT TO BAD I WOULD THINK IF PAID IN FULL

I know she wont get a loan- credit dreadful im assuming given some of the DCA letters I have seen at hers. OK SHE COULD SELL SOME GOODS TO RAISE SOME MONEY.

Dont think her parents have any money to give her. OH

I guess she needs to find out how much they think she owes and maybe find it somehow. PHONE THEM

I could lend her 2k - I have lent her money before and had it back so im ok with that. (YOUR RISK YOU MUST LIKE HER) LOL.....OH YOU CAN BE MY FRIEND IF YOU GOT THAT SORT OF MONEY GOING SPARE...:grin:

Perhaps if she cant make a full payment a really big payment (like 2K) off it would show willing?? FULL AMOUNT IS ALWAYS BEST AND PLEAD IGNORANT TO WHAT HAPPEND

Im hoping prison isnt the case for the sake of the little one! I THINK THAT SHE HAS I KID WILL BE IN HER FAVOR, AS THE CHILD IS DISABLED WILL BE 2.

 

LIBRO

[sar2004]

Hi all thanks for comments so far.

She rang to change the date for the IUC as she has no childcare at that time. They said they would contact her back with a new date/time. She also asked what it was all about and they said it was relating to undeclared income whilst claiming. (obviously work earnings) they would not tell her either how much she was supposed to owe or how long they are aware of so she is going on worse case scenario.

She could go in and confess to a few years and they may only know about 1 year.I know its not right saying that but just my thoughts!

 

She has nothing to sell. Well apart from her furniture and the kids toys and she wouldnt get a bean for that.

 

I dont really have the money spare BUT if she goes to prison i might be the one left holding the baby and to be fair i just couldnt cope. The child really is shocking hard work - dunno how she copes with that!

 

I said she should take her last consultants review letter about her little one. It really makes awful reading and they can see what she is dealing with on a daily basis. No excuse but still should be taken into account.

[jack1966]

she may get a community payback order

[sar2004]

yeah im thinking:

Conditional discharge

suspended sentence

community payback

or prison

could be any of those

Have I missed any out?

 

But either way before this happens she will have a while before it gets to that stage???

[jabba jones]

they would not tell her either how much she was supposed to owe or how long they are aware of so she is going on worse case scenario.

She could go in and confess to a few years and they may only know about 1 year.I know its not right saying that but just my thoughts!

 

 

Stupid idea, that will only prove to the investigator & potentially court that she is a liar. They will already have all this information.

 

The investigator will have contacted her employer at the start of the investigation asking for details of any work (dates, hours, wages etc) since the start of her claim. By law the employer has got to provide this.

 

The investigator will not know how much the overpayment is going to be (although they may have an estimation). After the IUC the case is sent to a decision making unit to work out the period of disallowance. After that it is sent to the overpayment section, they calculate the amount of the overpayment. When that is done they will write to your friend telling her how much she owes & asking her to contact them regarding repayment.

 

At the same time the overpayment team also send a copy of this letter to the fraud investigator. They will then pass the file to their fraud manager with a recommendation of what action to take next. The manager will look through the case & sanction either the Caution, Admin Penalty or Prosecution.

 

This is why it takes months & it will take even longer if it goes for prosecution.

[sar2004]

You are right it was stupid to say but just thinking out loud really.

No experience of this so cant offer her any advice myself just pass on the info from here.

I think she is prepared more mentally now and realises that it will end in court prosecution.

She is already going to start looking for a new job where the security clearance isnt as much of an issue.

I think thats all she can do really...

I have said from what I have read on here it could take a year to get to that stage so maybe she is being a bit hasty...not sure.

 

Just thinking though. her security clearance is updated every year...given timings etc it may be that one has been done just before court so potentially her employers wouldnt know until the year after.

I did say this to her but she said if it ends up in court it might go in the paper and they will say Miss X, working for company ABC at the time etc etc so they will find out anyway.

fair point I suppose x

[worriedsick1]

Sar - I have to attend an IUC and have looked into a number of issues that may arise your friend can (if she has kids) ask for her name/details to be kept out of the paper for fear of repercussions for her children.

[sar2004]

Really??

Is that true. That would make a significant difference.

More so for her employers findng out I think.

How do you do that then?

I will pass on the info as that is really useful

Thanks x