black horse (is it a personal loan or is it a hp they dont seem to know

[dx100uk]

nope

just get the image large size on the screen at photobucket

right click it

hit copy

come here

and right click hit paste.

dont paste the thumbnail link else it will be too small.

 

dx

[1bill32]

ok try this

page 2

 

[Pinky69]

It is a loan, not HP. The car is yours and the loan is for your daughter to sort out with Black Horse. As far as I can see, this loan would be enforceable in court as it has all the prescribed terms -amount of loan, interest rate and repayment schedule. BH is not the most consumer friendly organisation but she can only repay what she can afford. As long as she does this no court will order her to pay more.

[Dotty50]

Hi Pinky,

 

Wish I had your eyesight!

 

Although I find it very difficult to read, on the face of it, the first page does appear to be a loan.

 

However the second page looks a little questionable to me, it shows page 7 at the top and as you say Bill they have only supplied 2 pages and an original agreement would, I believe only have 2 pages. The front showing your personal details and all the figures and the back showing all the terms and conditions.

 

But clauses 3 and 4 on the 'back' refer to the goods and from what I can make out, these terms would refer to an HP agreement, now if this is what was supplied to the solicitors, I can understand why you were previously told that they could take the car back.

 

Maybe they have supplied an incorrect 'back' page!

 

Can you type out those two clauses in full on here for further advice?

[Pinky69]

I wondered about that too but the beginning of Clause 4 says "If you sell or otherwise dispose of the goods......" so it is not an HP agreement. The owner is free to sell the goods. Clause 3 is about insuring the goods, that they must be insured. At no stage does it say the goods can be reclaimed by the lender but states that in the event of missed payments the balance on the loan must be paid. It's weird but they seem to be saying that as a condition of the loan the goods bought with the loan must be insured, for what purpose I don't know. Perhaps it is to do with PPI and people not insuring their cars. This doesn't pertain in Bill's case but it could be a general clause for BH's protection. There are a lot of people out there who don't insure their cars.

Edited March 18, 2010 by Pinky69

[Dotty50]

But it does say that they may request that the agreement is settled in clause 4, how can they, if they do not have any title to them?

 

What if the loan was for consolidating previous loans? This seems a really strange one to me.

 

Goods under an HP agreement do have to be insured in the event of loss so that the agreement is settled by the insurance company, although in my experience they never paid out enough to cover the settlement figures! But if it was a personal loan then the account would just go on until the balance was paid in full.

 

Can't see that PPI has any relevance but you never know! It's not been charged on this loan as far as I can see.

[Pinky69]

Billy what was the date of the agreement?

[1bill32]

hi,

 

the agreement was taken out on the 1st dec 2006.

they have only ever sent us these 2 pages and every month they keep on sending my daughter a new photocopied 2 page agreement for her to refinace this over five years which we keep refusing to sign.

on page one of the agreement you have it says 'other financial information' as the heading,

it then says goods and below that used and we have for security removed the car deatils from the agreement, but in the original they have put there the cars make, reg number and vin numnber...will this make a differance to the agreement, i would not think it would but you never know.

with regards to the payment protection insurance PPI this was taken out with the garage directly and also they put on GAP insurance and floged her a tyre safe gaurd policy for £200 as well and from what i am told she was lead to belive these were all needed to get the loan for the car,(however we can not prove that, i think they tied her up like a kipper)

 

is there anything else i can help with?

thank you

[Dotty50]

The plot thickens!

 

Loan taken out on 1st December 2006 but they are supplying a copy of page 2 dated 30th November 2006! So that cannot be right for a start, I know it's probably a fax date but the agreement didn't exist at this point!

 

No PPI on this loan, all boxes show zero, but you say your daughter took this out directly with the garage, how much was this, has she any copy of the policy and was the price of this added to the loan?

 

If GAP was taken as well, was this added to the loan amount? The salesman was totally out of order if he said it was compulsory and if the loan was done through the garage then BH can be taken to task on this!

 

This all needs to be documented to BH and ask them to explain themselves, especially the arm twisting of a car salesman who is acting on their behalf. The salesman must have thought all his xmas's had come at once!

 

I personally would not pay another penny until these issues have been addressed but obviously only you or your daughter can make that decision.

 

Bill, just as a matter of interest, can you scan the document and any covering letter they keep sending to your daughter to sign and re-finance?

[Pinky69]

You are quite right to ignore any pressure to refinance. As Dotty says, does the credit include GAP insurance and tyre insurance and was there separate loan paperwork for this?

[1bill32]

the ppi was paid for the first 2 years directly to axa as it was pengragons policy so we are traying to get the money of pendragon, they so far have not responded about the tyre insurance and the gap insurance but they will as i wont give up.........attached below is the letter from black hores where they can not make there mind up if they own the car or they dont.....i dont think they can have it both ways unless they are hoping the my daughter has not sold the car so they are going to get some attachment on it..

 

bill

[Pinky69]

They can ask a court all they like but they have no legal entitlement to the car. Your daughter just got a straight forward loan. The car is not Black Horse's to take and they have no claim on it. What I was trying to establish is that none of the insurances had anything to do with Black Horse's loan ie they weren't inluded in the amount for the loan, and from what you say, they were not.

[1bill32]

yeh it looks like the tyre, gapand ppi were taken out inhouse so the llads could make there xmas bounis..

so if it is the case my daughter gave me thr car on the day she bought it for mr and it has been reg inmy name ever since the car is mine, and because i know she has no monine to pay it they will have to have what she can afford to pay as they therefore can not get my car,, is that correct?

[Pinky69]

She should continue to pay what she can afford. Black Horse has no claim to the car as it is not their property and the loan was not secured on it. To be honest you seem more concerned about keeping the car than you do about your daughter's debt. If it were me I would sell the car and use the proceeds to repay some of the debt.

[1bill32]

no please dont get this wrong, we have already asked 9 months ago can we sell the car, and then sort out the differance. the problem always has been 3 things

1 they kept on saying that we could not sell it because its thiers

2 if the car was my daughters and she sold it (and it did turn out to be black horse she would be commiting a criminal offence)

3 if i sold it beleving it was mine and it turned and it turned out to be black horses then i would be comiting the criminal act.

 

we just need to know who the car does belong to either me or my daughter so that when it is sold it is sold by that person. the log book shows my name on it.

please do you understand the position.

[1bill32]

sorry what i forgot to add was when we asked could we sell the car there were 2 different answers, 1 black horse people said no it was theres and 2 black horse solicitor said it was my daughters...and to this day no one i have spoken with can give me the 100% certian answer of WHO OWNS THIS CAR..

[Pinky69]

I think it would be worth making a 1 hour appointment with a solicitor to seek clarification of this - some give initial advice for free. The Terms and Conditions are weird to say the least and they could clarify the position for you and put your mind at rest. We are not lawyers and it's worth getting professional advice in case there is something in this we have missed.

[1bill32]

many thanks Pinky69,

like i have said b4 all the others i have asked including the cab can not answer this one for me, and it is strange that i have yet to find anyone else who has seen or heard of this agreement they refer to in there letter.

i will have a call around tomorrow again,

thanks again

[Pinky69]

I think because the Terms and Conditions are so unusual they should be checked out by someone who is legally qualified.

[Dotty50]

Well I am not convinced that the back relates to the front!

 

Bill I have sent you a PM with a bit of information that I can't put on here for personal reasons.

 

Can you tell me the version number at the top of the document please, I may be able to assist further later in the week.

[1bill32]

hi Dotty50,

 

this is getting more interesting,

i have now looked at the copies of the agreements that they have sent me and it seems that there are 2 agreements, 1 has version 023 on it and the other 019.

now i have seen this i will check all the copies i have from them to see if the signatures are the same

[Dotty50]

Why am I not surprised!

[1bill32]

i will be digging tomorrow, thank you i will be back asap

[Dotty50]

Hi Bill,

 

I have sent a PM.

 

It appears that these documents were used by motor dealers but T & C's written in a way to confuse.

 

It is a loan and no title is held in the goods.

[1bill32]

hi dotty,

 

thank you very much for this, it is a great help. like you say i think it is that they are trying to confuse.

 

thank you