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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

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      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
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      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

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Accused of shoplifting/theft falsely or otherwise?


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bigsteve - do you mean that they completely dropped the charges, including the fixed penalty of £80 ?

 

no fixed penalty was from the police. to get away from that we would have had to go to court and the wifes nerves would not stand that.

I was told life was supposed to be one long learning curve.

Mines more a series of hairpin bends.

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  • 5 months later...

I was wrongly accused today. I refused to go with security and told them to search my bags/ purse there and then. I then was walking away fuming and the security almost grabbed me when his colleague came and stopped him. I was then led to a room. Refused to say anything without a manager who came. They insisted I had taken a number of items and oaid for some. I showed them the receipts and what was in my possession. I complained about the fear the security gave me when he was so close to grabbing me and he admitted he was going to as I refused to go with him and admitted he stopped as his colleague turned up. I reiterated what he said and he then kept saying, ' I didn't grab you . I've be trained not to. You could sue me for assualt and I am trained'. I have been given a banning order from the whole mall yet I was/ am innocent. I had a bad experience last year which this forum helpped me with and am so careful that I never 'forget'- and I have health issues regarding this. The other security who escorted me from the mall told me he would not have banned me. It seems the banning has occurred because of the complaint I made. The manager never stayed around.

When they asked for my name and address I made it up..... I did not want RLP letters. Can I sue for the treatment, esp as I did not give details?

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  • 2 months later...
I was wrongly accused today. I refused to go with security and told them to search my bags/ purse there and then. I then was walking away fuming and the security almost grabbed me when his colleague came and stopped him. I was then led to a room. Refused to say anything without a manager who came. They insisted I had taken a number of items and oaid for some. I showed them the receipts and what was in my possession. I complained about the fear the security gave me when he was so close to grabbing me and he admitted he was going to as I refused to go with him and admitted he stopped as his colleague turned up. I reiterated what he said and he then kept saying, ' I didn't grab you . I've be trained not to. You could sue me for assualt and I am trained'. I have been given a banning order from the whole mall yet I was/ am innocent. I had a bad experience last year which this forum helpped me with and am so careful that I never 'forget'- and I have health issues regarding this. The other security who escorted me from the mall told me he would not have banned me. It seems the banning has occurred because of the complaint I made. The manager never stayed around.

When they asked for my name and address I made it up..... I did not want RLP letters. Can I sue for the treatment, esp as I did not give details?

If you gave false details, how can you sue them without giving them your real details.
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  • 3 months later...

Whoa, a thread started by JonCris, now there's someone who went up with a puff of smoke, never to be seen again..........................

 

H

46 years at the pointy end of the motor trade. :eek:

HMCTS Approved Technical Expert and Independent Motor Trade Consultant

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Some of the advice given by this 'jonchris' person is, at the best, wrong, and at the worst could mean the difference between force being used on a person, which if they complied, wouldn't of been needed.

 

Refusing to budge, and standing on the shop floor 'for camera coverage' is completely wrong.

 

For a start, there's no store which covers every inch with cctv - and just because you can see a dome camera, it could be pointing the wrong way, looking at a different area, or not being recorded at that time. Not even being able to see yourself in the front door monitor is a sure fire winner - as some stores simply have the camera connected to the monitor, and that's it - no recording.

 

In maxx stores, the holding room has a camera in it, and a mic. So, rather than being your word against security, everything is recorded, and available for playback. Why, if totally innocent, would you give up the opportunity to have the entire episode recorded, for any future complaint.

 

If you refuse to return, most security will take that as you are going to attempt to escape, so a sit down in an office, out of public view, as to avoid any embarassment, turns into a guard holding you (so you don't think about walking off), stood waiting whilst the police come to talk to you (which, again, sets the scene for the police, that you are being obstructive from the word go).

 

I always used to ask the person 'have you ever been stopped before'. The reason - because they might not have been, and its not a pleasant experience. They won't know what's about to happen. They actually want to have it explained to them - and there are paperwork bits the store will go through, rlp being one, and a banning notice.

 

Dictating to the police what you have / haven't done, is to be done AFTER the guard has said their bit to the police. Interuppting them will make you come across as arogant, and may mean the difference between the police putting you in the van, or listening to your side, and making a decision which results in your release.

 

If you really forgot / haven't done it / have some sort of mental issues etc, then put your side to the police. Calmly, politely, and making sure that you only state the facts. Complaints are best left to a long letter, after requesting and reviewing the cctv etc the store has.

 

Complaining at the time, and to the store, will be seen as ranting, and may not be taken seriously. If you really want to make an impact, give it in a letter (not email, they can become too friendly), to head office.

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Some of the advice given by this 'jonchris' person is, at the best, wrong, and at the worst could mean the difference between force being used on a person, which if they complied, wouldn't of been needed.

 

Refusing to budge, and standing on the shop floor 'for camera coverage' is completely wrong.

 

For a start, there's no store which covers every inch with cctv - and just because you can see a dome camera, it could be pointing the wrong way, looking at a different area, or not being recorded at that time. Not even being able to see yourself in the front door monitor is a sure fire winner - as some stores simply have the camera connected to the monitor, and that's it - no recording.

 

In maxx stores, the holding room has a camera in it, and a mic. So, rather than being your word against security, everything is recorded, and available for playback. Why, if totally innocent, would you give up the opportunity to have the entire episode recorded, for any future complaint.

 

If you refuse to return, most security will take that as you are going to attempt to escape, so a sit down in an office, out of public view, as to avoid any embarassment, turns into a guard holding you (so you don't think about walking off), stood waiting whilst the police come to talk to you (which, again, sets the scene for the police, that you are being obstructive from the word go).

 

You are asking people to trust in the honesty and integrity of a minimum-wage rentaguard who has just falsely accused them of theft. That's a bit naive, and the suggestion that it may lead to force being used if they don't "comply" is nasty. I'm sure you didn't mean it to sound like a thuggish threat, but the wording you chose was unfortunate.

 

A security guard can perform a citizen's arrest, if they feel they have the grounds and they are prepared to face the consequences of an error. But the making of an arrest gives them no power to take you off to a little back room somewhere, and I agree with JonCris that an innocent shopper should refuse (guilty ones are not my concern).

 

Not all security guards have the high moral ethics of maxxer. Some will bully you, illegally search you, try to coerce confessions from you (eg under RLP), and some might even plant goods on you if they find they've made a mistake. Maybe a big store will have a reliable cctv system, or maybe it will be under the control of the security staff (eg tampering with it to conceal their treatment of the arrested person), or maybe they won't have one at all. If you allow yourself to be taken round the back, you might get what that phrase infers.

 

It is safer to remain where you are, in clear view of witnesses. If the security guards don't like that, ask yourself why they are so keen to get you out of sight and under their sole control? If the guard has clearly stated that he has arrested you, then you must remain until a constable arrives. Stand where you are, or walk to a nearby seat, without making any sudden or aggressive movements. If the shop guard wishes to hold your arm or stand between you and the door, that's fine.

 

While you are waiting, it's a good idea to call a trusted friend or relative and tell them what's happening - this will boost your confidence and flush out the misplaced guilt that arises in such situations. Also, take notes - times, dates, names. The guard has no right to prevent you from using your phone or writing down details.

 

Do not allow the shop guard to interfere with your shopping or clothing, do not allow them to "check your receipt". The moment for checking has passed, they have already accused you of a crime by making their arrest. Do not discuss the matter with them except to say that you are innocent, and you will be taking legal advice. Then wait for the professionals to arrive.

 

I agree with maxxer's final points about the post-police phase. Calm, measured, evidence-based and ruthlessly polite. Start shouting, and you've lost the game at the whistle.

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Some of the advice given by this 'jonchris' person is, at the best, wrong, and at the worst could mean the difference between force being used on a person, which if they complied, wouldn't of been needed.

 

Refusing to budge, and standing on the shop floor 'for camera coverage' is completely wrong.

 

For a start, there's no store which covers every inch with cctv - and just because you can see a dome camera, it could be pointing the wrong way, looking at a different area, or not being recorded at that time. Not even being able to see yourself in the front door monitor is a sure fire winner - as some stores simply have the camera connected to the monitor, and that's it - no recording.

 

In maxx stores, the holding room has a camera in it, and a mic. So, rather than being your word against security, everything is recorded, and available for playback. Why, if totally innocent, would you give up the opportunity to have the entire episode recorded, for any future complaint.

 

If you refuse to return, most security will take that as you are going to attempt to escape, so a sit down in an office, out of public view, as to avoid any embarassment, turns into a guard holding you (so you don't think about walking off), stood waiting whilst the police come to talk to you (which, again, sets the scene for the police, that you are being obstructive from the word go).

 

I always used to ask the person 'have you ever been stopped before'. The reason - because they might not have been, and its not a pleasant experience. They won't know what's about to happen. They actually want to have it explained to them - and there are paperwork bits the store will go through, rlp being one, and a banning notice.

 

Dictating to the police what you have / haven't done, is to be done AFTER the guard has said their bit to the police. Interuppting them will make you come across as arogant, and may mean the difference between the police putting you in the van, or listening to your side, and making a decision which results in your release.

 

If you really forgot / haven't done it / have some sort of mental issues etc, then put your side to the police. Calmly, politely, and making sure that you only state the facts. Complaints are best left to a long letter, after requesting and reviewing the cctv etc the store has.

 

Complaining at the time, and to the store, will be seen as ranting, and may not be taken seriously. If you really want to make an impact, give it in a letter (not email, they can become too friendly), to head office.

 

This is an alternative point of view. There are consequences to most actions. If you stay in the main body of the store (as is your right) then you might risk assault by the security people but their actions will be witnessed by many customers. If you go into the security room then you are relying on recording that might or might not be working (if there is any) and anything might happen if it's not.

 

I do agree with being polite to the police and trying to present your case clearly, but most people aren't equipped to deal with the situation.

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thread closed

 

now for reference only

 

if you have any issues

 

start your own thread

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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