Loan Arranged Through Intermediary For Limited Company

[diddydicky]

I cant see how the chap had his finger over the document when it is signed in three separate places,

 

or how you could possibly have thought that you were "witnessing " the MD's signature

'

 

it quite clearly says Home Improvement Loan on it

 

If you didnt think it was anymore than a witness signature and couldn't see what was on it - why did you try to claim on the insurance (PPI)?

 

 

 

this will also be thrown at you

 

"... a person who signs a document, and parts with it so that it may come into other hands, has a responsibility, that of the normal man of prudence, to take care what he signs, which if neglected, prevents him from denying his liability under the document according to its tenor".

[per Lord Wilberforce in*Gallie v Lee*(1971)]

 

'.. a man cannot escape from the consequences, as regards innocent third parties, of signing a document if, being a man of ordinary education and competence, he chooses to sign it without informing himself of its purport and effect..'

[per Scott LJ in*Norwich & Peterborough Building Society v Steed*(1992)]

 

I would offer to help (not that i think i can anyway given the circumstances )

 

but to be brutally honest, i don't believe a word of your story (sorry it must be my past life as a copper)

 

and i would urge other caggers to be selective in how they respond!!

Edited February 3, 2010 by diddydicky

[BobDuncan]

Thanks Diddydicky, like you I have also served my Queen and Country, 15 years as a Royal Engineer and 15 years as a Prison Officer. Should have been more specific I am in a state of total meltdown at the moment.

 

I have not had a response from Henderson & Barker at all!!

 

As I previously stated, the first loan was arranged through an Intermediary, for which I will shortly have the paperwork, the one signed in the presence of said person and it was this loan that was signed in the MDs office with a finger indicating to 'sign here'. The second loan was arranged as stated previously and I was told to go to the local office and sign the papers. I believed what I was being told by this so called expert and was persuaded to do so on the understanding that this happens all the time, the loan was unsecured and not linked to my house nor was any payments being paid into my personal account. I am not sure as to how the Halifax got the account details as I would not have that information to hand or even on my person? I am sure if Halifax have recorded the initial arrangement phonecall they will hear it is not me calling but a third party. I was not present when the initial call was made. The loan was being paid into the company account, which will be shown on the direct debit mandate, of which, at the moment I don't have a copy. I am also going to contact the accountants again, who originally recommended the intermediary and hopefully get a name. At the same time I will try and get a copy of the company accounts which will show the monies being paid in and also the monthly payments being drawn down from the same account.

 

At the time of being made unemployed I HAD NEVER BEEN OUT OF WORK FROM THE AGE OF 13 YRS OLD, I worked on my friends dairy farm for pocket money and joined HM Forces when I was 15 yrs & 6 mths old as a Junior Soldier.

 

I don't want to get into a slanging match with anyone, but I am not a liar and I can only try and remember the circumstances as they were some years back.

 

BobD

[humbleman]

 

If you didnt think it was anymore than a witness signature and couldn't see what was on it - why did you try to claim on the insurance (PPI)?

 

 

I was just about to ask EXACTLY THAT

[diddydicky]

i suggest that if what you said in your original post is correct the

 

ONLY course is for you to go to the police and not mess about trying to defend civil actions which you seem sure are nothing to do with you

[slick132]

Hi BobD,

 

You already know that I have reservations about your predicament because of the PPI payments which you claimed and received. Others here obviously think the same and I would assume the bank's barrister would home in on this too.

 

Did you make the PPI claim AFTER you were made redundant, by which time the bank had approached you personally for payments. Or was the PPI claimed before then.

 

You must get the further evidence you need about where the money was paid when the loan was first drawn-down. Also, any evidence showing that the company was servicing the monthly payments will be helpful.

 

Have you approached the police at all. If not, I think you should do so now. They may be disinterested initially and, if you want them to investigate (which will be helpful to your case), you may have to be insistent.

[BobDuncan]

I was made unemployed on 29 June 2007, by a phone call at 1730 hrs to say my services were no longer required. After this, the Halifax contacted me to say the payments were not being made. I informed them of the fact that the company was paying the monthly payments and it was not my loan. I was told at that point not to worry as there is PPI on the loans and to make a claim, this would give me time to sort out the other matters. What was important, which they advised was that the payments were still being made. Subsequently, Halifax Insurance decided they would wait for my Employment Tribunal to sit and make a decision before proceeding further. After 4 months the Halifax cancelled my claim as according to them nothing had happened.

 

That was the reason for claiming PPI.

 

BobD

[diddydicky]

On the top of the loan document above it says

 

"IMPORTANT- applications for homeowner loans must be in the same names as

appear as owners on the title deeds to your property.

 

it goes on to say that if your application is succesful- various information will be sent to you in the post including any ppi documents

 

therefore even if you were "Hoodwinked" at work, these documents would have been sent to the address on the loan application forms, which i take it is yours!

 

i think that you need to give an answer to the first important question that slick asked you

 

where did the loan money get paid to?

 

your account or elsewhere

 

where were the monthly payments being paid from? your account or the company

 

it seems to me that it would be the simplest of simple tasks for you to contact the Halifax and ask for proof of what account the money was paid into.

 

Your dismissal wouldnt have anything to do with this would it?

 

would it have been the case that you for some reason ended up owing the company money and that they insisted you take out this loan to repay them "or else"??

 

you didnt bring this matter before the tribunal?

 

when the halifax suggested you claim on the insurance- you didnt say to them at that time

 

what insurance? what the hell are you talking to me for?

 

stop asking more questions until you have answered a few

[BobDuncan]

To answer your questions one at a time:

 

I was not at the time aware that this was a homeowners loan, I was assured it was unsecured and, as a loan to a limited company there was no comeback on the signatories.

 

As previously stated the loan monies were paid directly into the company accounts. Not my personal account as I have already indicated.

 

The monthly payments were made from the company account, again not my personal account.

 

The paperwork for the loans actually went to the address given for the first loan which was arranged by the Intermediary, the second loan was supposedly a consolidation of the two loans. The first loan as I was led to believe was to be paid off using part of the monies from the second loan.

 

In my previous reply I have also said that I have requested all paperwork and paid £10.00 for SAR, which I believe should be all documents relevant to the loans and these I am waiting to receive from Henderson & Barker. Still no response from them?? Included in this bundle should be, I presume a copy of the Direct Debit Mandate and details of where the monies were paid, which would verify the company not me as receiving the monies.

 

If it is possible to get copies of the company accounts then this would show that the monies were paid in. It would also show payments being made and I promise you there are no payments being paid to me in any shape or form out of the said accounts apart from my monthly wage.

 

As for my dismissal. The company owner was selling her company to a London based training organisation. The shares were transferred in February 2007. We were taken over under TUPE regulations. The new owner said TUPE was not applicable and when I tried to claim 6 years redundancy he simply claimed he did not employ me, despite the fact that I had 3 months pay statements (March, April and May 2007) showing the new company name etc. The reason why I had to go to Employment Tribunal for unfair dismissal was that the new owner would not accept that he had taken 17 staff of the old company on under TUPE regulations and refused to give me a P45. I won my case but it took 10 months before it was heard. I was awarded £29000 but to this date have not had a penny from him. The tribunal sat on 30 April 2008 and be wrote to say the company ceased trading on 17 April 2008. An obvious ploy so as not to pay any compensation to anyone.

 

To top it all he had not been paying PAYE and so when I signed on for Jobseekers Allowance (yet another demoralising experience) I was only entitled to £26.00 a fortnight, due to the fact that at that time there was no evidence of me paying NI Contributions. Thats what you get for working all your life. Fortunately I was able to show that PAYE had been deducted at source and the HMRC credited me with the payments. I am still waiting for Department for Works and Pensions to pay me what I should have been paid during my unemployment.

 

I'm not sure if you can imagine just how low I have been over the last 2 and a half years, trying to sort all this out and more.

 

Hence the reason why the loans were not dealt with by the Tribunal, it was under a different company name and after 10 months of going through the company takeover (Started in October 2006) the gentleman pulled out and left 18 tutors and managers without jobs.

 

As I have already stated, I phoned them in response to their initial letters, it was the Halifax that informed me that there was PPI on the loans, I was none the wiser. Yes I did ask them why they were talking to me and not the company, I have copies of letters sent to them saying exactly that. I even went to the lengths of getting my previous six years bank statements showing continuous monthly wages being paid into my bank but they insisted on having a copy of the P45.

 

If you took the time to read all the threads you will see the answers are there. I don't want to go through every detail of tribunals and everything but if you disbelieve me, give me an address and I will forward the tribunal findings to you. You may even go on the internet, I have not looked but I seem to remember Tribunal findings being posted on their website. Duncan Vs Dayspring Consulting Limited

 

Hope this answers your questions I have been living a nightmare for the past 30 months and it is still going on.

[diddydicky]

thanks no i dont want that detail

 

i really dont see what your problem could be in the light of the facts you have just divulged

 

if the loan monies went into the company account it is game over and all the rest is a waste of time

 

all you need do is tell halifax to either put up or shut up

 

i suspect they will have no option than to shut up since if they gave you a personal loan they would have needed your authority for it to be paid elsewhere

[BobDuncan]

Thanks Diddydicky, my problem is how to word my defence and also I am still fighting the PPI issue. Because Halifax Insurance insisted on having a P45 and the employer did not provide this, and also as I was going to Tribunal the insurance said they had to wait for the outcome of the hearing. The same stance was taken by the Chelsea Building Society but I am also in the process of challenging their decision also.

 

Anyway, there is nowhere in the policy documents that state anything to do with tribunals stopping PPI payments. Halifax Insurance also took it upon themselves to cancel my claim after approximately 5 months as nothing was happening. The Loan was arranged as being protected by Payment Protection Insurance, when push came to shove this was sold as part of the loan and it was a breach of the agreement, would this not make it unenforceable under its own merit?

 

BobD

[humbleman]

Bob

 

Did you give Halifax authority to pay the loan into the company account.

[BobDuncan]

Sorry yet again some important information just came to mind. When the second loan was arranged, I believe the direct debit was set up from the information from the first loan and that is where the information for the account details etc were taken from. I did not know these details and this may be why I never saw any paperwork again until my demise from the company.

[diddydicky]

i say again- you are dealing with the wrong court- the police station is where you need to be

 

what you are averring to is a serious case of fraud and by the sounds of it a conspiracy to defraud (since clearly the MD and the agent must have been "in it" together)

 

i have to say that i still don't believe this tale and think this is a wind up so i am unsubscribing from this thread

[pedross]

Well Diddys out, but I have just found the thread and its got my interest.

 

I hope it is not a wind up, but I am going to catch up over the weekend on the whole thread. If it is a wind up, PM me Bob so i don't waste my time.

 

I'm onto this!

 

Pedross Stallone

[slick132]

Hi Bob,

 

I think you have to approach the police as I suggested above.

 

When is the defence due in.

 

I think you will have to enter an "embarrassed" defence which will say the claimants Particulars of Claim are not sufficiently particularised, etc, etc.

 

See this post and onwards for examples of embarrassed defence and re the use of CPR to get info from the bank. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/239030-mbna-reston-threating-court-10.html#post2712509

 

You can defend the claim in full at this stage.

 

I think you should also state in your defence that you are the victim of fraud and investigations into this matter by the police are ongoing.

 

You should write to the claimants sol'rs seeking info using CPR31.14 to address doc'ts you require in response to their claim.

 

Also use CPR18 to seek the bank's proof as to which a/c the money was credited to.

[slick132]

To address your earlier point about PPI being included in the loan agreement, this did not make the agreement unenforceable according to the advice I was given about the agreement's enforceability.

 

The only exception to this is if a "Hidden Commission" had been paid regarding the insurance.

 

However, this will not affect your defence on the basis that you were the victim of fraud by the MD and others.

[BobDuncan]

Thanks all, I can assure you this is not a wind up. Everything stated previous to this actually happened and is still happening. I agree with you regarding contacting the police regarding the Halifax matter. I admit, it is an unbelievable scenario but one that nevertheless is true.

 

I do not wind people up just for the fun of it, there are I suppose people out there that do and get their kicks that way. I can assure anyone reading this that the past 2 and a half years have been hell and with one thing after another my life has been hell sending me to the pits of despair, a couple of my friends don't know how I have coped. They say when the monies gone the wifes gone, in my case it is true, she is divorcing me and I am having to sell the house, I lost my 06 plated Vauxhall Signum due to unemployment and up to now everything has been downhill to the point of contemplating suicide. Fortunately I do no drink and therefore have been able to keep my senses about me. My full and particularised defence has got to be at the courts by 4pm on 14 February 2010. I desperately need help in wording the defene and need time to read the references quoted etc. I understand that this matter taken as a whole does sound too far fetched to be happening but I promise you the facts are as stated.

 

BobD

[pedross]

Good advice from Slick

[slick132]

Hi Bob,

 

Your defence will be straightforward just now, because the POC in the claim against you are so poor.

 

Go through the thread I linked above and remember, the embarrassed defence only has to address the POC.

[BobDuncan]

I am extremely grateful to you for your positive and honest approach to this matter by all at CAG, I am required to submit a full and particularised defence by next Monday 14 Feb 2010. Do I have time to still do this, as I am required to give the solicitors 14 days to respond to my CPR 18 letter?

 

I know they have been given 14 days after the 14th Feb to answer my counter claim.

 

Bob D

[BobDuncan]

To add pressure to all this I work from 8.30 am to 6.30pm most days, my only day off is Mondays, but I am getting more confident about taking them on. Please remember, I don't have a legal background and probably take more time to inwardly digest all the information required.

 

BobD

[BobDuncan]

i say again- you are dealing with the wrong court- the police station is where you need to be

 

what you are averring to is a serious case of fraud and by the sounds of it a conspiracy to defraud (since clearly the MD and the agent must have been "in it" together)

 

i have to say that i still don't believe this tale and think this is a wind up so i am unsubscribing from this thread

 

Never mind, I suppose as an ex-policeman you have an inbuilt suspicion about everything. Thanks for your honesty and good luck in the future.

[BobDuncan]

Bob

 

Did you give Halifax authority to pay the loan into the company account.

 

The account details were taken from the information held on the first loan and these details were put onto the DD mandate. When asked regarding the account details I simply stated it was as per the original company loan and the company account details were on their system. I know my bank details off by heart and know that the details were not my personal bank account details. As it was some time ago, and not being overly concerned due to the so called 'expert' arranging the original loan, I had not reason to question anything.

Edited February 5, 2010 by BobDuncan

[humbleman]

The account details were taken from the information held on the first loan and these details were put onto the DD mandate. When asked regarding the account details I simply stated it was as per the original company loan and the company account details were on their system. .

 

Why would they discuss anything about the account details with you, If all you were doing was to witness a signature

[pedross]

Hi Bob

 

I have only just started looking at this and slick is giving you good advice on the hearing so I have no intention of duplicating or confusing good advice.

 

You posted the following:

 

'I was awarded £29000 but to this date have not had a penny from him. The tribunal sat on 30 April 2008 and be wrote to say the company ceased trading on 17 April 2008. An obvious ploy so as not to pay any compensation to anyone.'

 

To my understanding the company has ceased trading and the affairs are being dealt with by the Official Receiver at Croydon. Were you aware of this and does it sound correct? If so have you contacted the OR?

 

Next, comments have been made about the funds being paid into the company account and repayments made by the company account - can you prove that?

 

Finally, what first agreement are you referring to, do you have any information about that agreement.

 

Just to confuse everyone, including me - does DA mean anything to you?

 

Pedross