Dissecting the Manchester Test Case....

[Laura Cooke]

Pardon the intrusions but would appreciate Martin or anyone advice on 3 default notices of mine, CITI, Halifax, Capital One I posted up about a week ago thanks in anticipation:)

[MARTIN3030]

Laura-not the place....I remember giving you a thread for each-you should be asking in there !!!

[Laura Cooke]

Sorry sincere apologies but been asking in there with no responses

[MARTIN3030]

ok then can you either put links here-or else report to site team.

I would do one at a time

[seriously fed up]

Short quote from Will Hutton in today's Observer "Banks must be one of the most effective lobby organisations in modern times." (Boris Johnson v Will Hutton | Comment is free | The Observer)

That explains a good deal. It also points to the need to address their lobbying activities

But they dont always get their own way:

"And I went on to warn the banks that if the bonus bonanza continued, and if they continued to seem so heedless of wider society, then the pressure for fiscal retaliation would be overwhelming."

Who said that? Boris Johnson (same page)

[JonCris]

Even though lengthy I make no apologies for posting this as it would appear the politicians of today have forgot the hard won lessons of the past

 

Thomas Jefferson quote

 

"One of three great measures necessary to insure us permanent prosperity... should insure resources of money by the suppression of all paper circulation during peace, and licensing that of the nation alone during war. The metallic medium of which we should be possessed at the commencement of a war, would be a sufficient fund for all the loans we should need through its continuance; and if the national bills issued be bottomed (as is indispensable) on pledges of

 

In such a nation [as ours], there is one and one only resource for loans, sufficient to carry them through the expense of a war; and that will always be sufficient, and in the power of an honest government, punctual in the preservation of its faith. The fund I mean, is the mass of circulating coin. Everyone knows, that although not literally, it is nearly true, that every paper dollar emitted banishes a silver one from the circulation. A nation, therefore, making its purchases and payments with bills fitted for circulation, thrusts an equal sum of coin out of circulation. This is equivalent to borrowing that sum, and yet the vendor receiving payment in a medium as effectual as coin for his purchases or payments, has no claim to interest. And so the nation may continue to issue its bills as far as its wants require, and the limits of the circulation will admit... But this, the only resource which the government could command with certainty, the States have unfortunately fooled away, nay corruptly alienated to swindlers and shavers, under the cover of private banks." --Thomas Jefferson to John W. Eppes, 1813. ME 13:274

specific taxes for their redemption within certain and moderate epochs, and be of proper denominations for circulation, no interest on them would be necessary or just, because they would answer to everyone the purposes of the metallic money withdrawn and replaced by them." --Thomas Jefferson to William H. Crawford, 1816. ME 15:30

 

Dangers of Paper Money

"That paper money has some advantages is admitted. But that its abuses also are inevitable and, by breaking up the measure of value, makes a lottery of all private property, cannot be denied. --Thomas Jefferson to Josephus B. Stuart, 1817. ME 15:113

"The trifling economy of paper, as a cheaper medium, or its convenience for transmission, weighs nothing in opposition to the advantages of the precious metals... it is liable to be abused, has been, is, and forever will be abused, in every country in which it is permitted." --Thomas Jefferson to John W. Eppes, 1813. ME 13:430

"Scenes are now to take place as will open the eyes of credulity and of insanity itself, to the dangers of a paper medium abandoned to the discretion of avarice and of swindlers." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814. ME 14:189

"The States should be applied to, to transfer the right of issuing circulating paper to Congress exclusively, in perpetuum." --Thomas Jefferson to John W. Eppes, 1813. ME 13:276

"The evils of this deluge of paper money are not to be removed until our citizens are generally and radically instructed in their cause and consequences, and silence by their authority the interested clamors and sophistry of speculating, shaving, and banking institutions. Till then, we must be content to return quoad hoc to the savage state, to recur to barter in the exchange of our property for want of a stable common measure of value, that now in use being less fixed than the beads and wampum of the Indian, and to deliver up our citizens, their property and their labor, passive victims to the swindling tricks of bankers and mountebankers." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1819. ME 15:185

"Private fortunes, in the present state of our circulation, are at the mercy of those self-created money lenders, and are prostrated by the floods of nominal money with which their avarice deluges us." --Thomas Jefferson to John W. Eppes, 1813. ME 13:276

"It is a cruel thought, that, when we feel ourselves standing on the firmest ground in every respect, the cursed arts of our secret enemies, combining with other causes, should effect, by depreciating our money, what the open arms of a powerful enemy could not." --Thomas Jefferson to Richard Henry Lee, 1779. ME 4:298, Papers 2:298

"I now deny [the Federal Government's] power of making paper money or anything else a legal tender." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1798. ME 10:65

Paper Speculation

"A spirit... of gambling in our public paper has seized on too many of our citizens, and we fear it will check our commerce, arts, manufactures, and agriculture, unless stopped." --Thomas Jefferson to William Carmichael, 1791. ME 8:230

"Our public credit is good, but the abundance of paper has produced a spirit of gambling in the funds, which has laid up our ships at the wharves as too slow instruments of profit, and has even disarmed the hand of the tailor of his needle and thimble. They say the evil will cure itself. I wish it may; but I have rarely seen a gamester cured, even by the disasters of his vocation." --Thomas Jefferson to Gouverneur Morris, 1791. ME 8:241

"All the capital employed in paper speculation is barren and useless, producing, like that on a gaming table, no accession to itself, and is withdrawn from commerce and agriculture where it would have produced addition to the common mass... It nourishes in our citizens habits of vice and idleness instead of industry and morality... It has furnished effectual means of corrupting such a portion of the legislature as turns the balance between the honest voters whichever way it is directed." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1792. ME 8:344

"We are now taught to believe that legerdemain tricks upon paper can produce as solid wealth as hard labor in the earth. It is vain for common sense to urge that nothing can produce but nothing; that it is an idle dream to believe in a philosopher's stone which is to turn everything into gold, and to redeem man from the original sentence of his Maker, 'in the sweat of his brow shall he eat his bread.'" --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816. ME 14:381

The Importance of Personal Economy

"I own it to be my opinion, that good will arise from the destruction of our credit. I see nothing else which can restrain our disposition to luxury, and to the change of those manners which alone can preserve republican government. As it is impossible to prevent credit, the best way would be to cure its ill effects by giving an instantaneous recovery to the creditor. This would be reducing purchases on credit to purchases for ready money. A man would then see a prison painted on everything he wished, but had not ready money to pay for." --Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart, 1786. ME 5:259

"We should try whether the prodigal might not be restrained from taking on credit the gewgaw held out to him in one hand, by seeing the keys of a prison in the other." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Pleasants, 1786. ME 5:325, Papers 9:472

"The maxim of buying nothing without the money in our pockets to pay for it would make of our country one of the happiest on earth." --Thomas Jefferson to Alexander Donald, 1787. ME 6:192

"Every discouragement should be thrown in the way of men who undertake to trade without capital." --Thomas Jefferson to Nathaniel Tracy, 1785. Papers 8:399

"Would a missionary appear, who would make frugality the basis of his religious system, and go through the land, preaching it up as the only road to salvation, I would join his school, though not generally disposed to seek my religion out of the dictates of my own reason and feelings of my own heart." --Thomas Jefferson to John Page, 1786. ME 5:305

"I look back to the time of the war as a time of happiness and enjoyment, when amidst the privation of many things not essential to happiness, we could not run in debt, because nobody would trust us; when we practised by necessity the maxim of buying nothing but what we had money in our pockets to pay for; a maxim which, of all others, lays the broadest foundation for happiness. I see no remedy to our evils, but an open course of law. Harsh as it may seem, it would relieve the very patients who dread it, by stopping the course of their extravagance, before it renders their affairs entirely desperate." --Thomas Jefferson to Fulwar Skipwith, 1787. ME 6:188

"It is a miserable arithmetic which makes any single privation whatever so painful as a total privation of everything which must necessarily follow the living so far beyond our income." --Thomas Jefferson to William Hay, 1787. ME 6:223

"I know of no remedy against indolence and extravagance, but a free course of justice. Everything else is merely palliative... Desperate of finding relief from a free course of justice, I look forward to the abolition of all credit, as the only other remedy which can take place." --Thomas Jefferson to Alexander Donald, 1787. ME 6:192

Banking Institutions

"That we are overdone with banking institutions which have banished the precious metals and substituted a more fluctuating and unsafe medium, that these have withdrawn capital from useful improvements and employments to nourish idleness, that the wars of the world have swollen our commerce beyond the wholesome limits of exchanging our own productions for our own wants, and that, for the emolument of a small proportion of our society who prefer these demoralizing pursuits to labors useful to the whole, the peace of the whole is endangered and all our present difficulties produced, are evils more easily to be deplored than remedied." --Thomas Jefferson to Abbe Salimankis, 1810. ME 12:379

"The system of banking have... ever reprobated. I contemplate it as a blot left in all our Constitutions, which, if not covered, will end in their destruction, which is already hit by the gamblers in corruption, and is sweeping away in its progress the fortunes and morals of our citizens." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:18

"The banks... have the regulation of the safety-valves of our fortunes, and... condense and explode them at their will." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1819. ME 15:224

"The States should be urged to concede to the General Government, with a saving of chartered rights, the exclusive power of establishing banks of discount for paper." --Thomas Jefferson to John W. Eppes, 1813. ME 13:431

"I sincerely believe... that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:23

A National Bank

"The incorporation of a bank and the powers assumed [by legislation doing so] have not, in my opinion, been delegated to the United States by the Constitution. They are not among the powers specially enumerated." --Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on Bank, 1791. ME 3:146

"It has always been denied by the republican party in this country, that the Constitution had given the power of incorporation to Congress. On the establishment of the Bank of the United States, this was the great ground on which that establishment was combated; and the party prevailing supported it only on the argument of its being an incident to the power given them for raising money." --Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Maese, 1809. ME 12:231

"The idea of creating a national bank I do not concur in, because it seems now decided that Congress has not that power (although I sincerely wish they had it exclusively), and because I think there is already a vast redundancy rather than a scarcity of paper medium." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Law, 1813. FE 9:433

"[The] Bank of the United States... is one of the most deadly hostility existing, against the principles and form of our Constitution... An institution like this, penetrating by its branches every part of the Union, acting by command and in phalanx, may, in a critical moment, upset the government. I deem no government safe which is under the vassalage of any self-constituted authorities, or any other authority than that of the nation, or its regular functionaries. What an obstruction could not this bank of the United States, with all its branch banks, be in time of war! It might dictate to us the peace we should accept, or withdraw its aids. Ought we then to give further growth to an institution so powerful, so hostile?" --Thomas Jefferson to Albert Gallatin, 1803. ME 10:437

Meeting the Banking Problem

"The monopoly of a single bank is certainly an evil. The multiplication of them was intended to cure it; but it multiplied an influence of the same character with the first, and completed the supplanting the precious metals by a paper circulation. Between such parties the less we meddle the better." --Thomas Jefferson to Albert Gallatin, 1802. ME 10:323

"In order to be able to meet a general combination of the banks against us in a critical emergency, could we not make a beginning towards an independent use of our own money, towards holding our own bank in all the deposits where it is received, and letting the treasurer give his draft or note for payment at any particular place, which, in a well-conducted government, ought to have as much credit as any private draft or bank note or bill, and would give us the same facilities which we derive from the banks?" --Thomas Jefferson to Albert Gallatin, 1803. ME 10:439

"If treasury bills are emitted on a tax appropriated for their redemption in fifteen years, and (to insure preference in the first moments of competition) bearing an interest of six per cent, there is no one who would not take them in preference to the bank paper now afloat, on a principle of patriotism as well as interest; and they would be withdrawn from circulation into private hoards to a considerable amount. Their credit once established, others might be emitted, bottomed also on a tax, but not bearing interest; and if ever their credit faltered, open public loans, on which these bills alone should be received as specie. These, operating as a sinking fund, would reduce the quantity in circulation, so as to maintain that in an equilibrium with specie. It is not easy to estimate the obstacles which, in the beginning, we should encounter in ousting the banks from their possession of the circulation; but a steady and judicious alternation of emissions and loans would reduce them in time." --Thomas Jefferson to John W. Eppes, 1813. ME 13:275

"Bank paper must be suppressed, and the circulating medium must be restored to the nation to whom it belongs. It is the only fund on which they can rely for loans; it is the only resource which can never fail them, and it is an abundant one for every necessary purpose. Treasury bills, bottomed on taxes, bearing or not bearing interest, as may be found necessary, thrown into circulation will take the place of so much gold and silver, which last, when crowded, will find an efflux into other countries, and thus keep the quantum of medium at its salutary level. Let banks continue if they please, but let them discount for cash alone or for treasury notes." --Thomas Jefferson to John W. Eppes, 1813. ME 13:361

"Put down the banks, and if this country could not be carried through the longest war against her most powerful enemy without ever knowing the want of a dollar, without dependence on the traitorous classes of her citizens, without bearing hard on the resources of the people, or loading the public with an indefinite burden of debt, I know nothing of my countrymen. Not by any novel project, not by an charlatanerie, but by ordinary and well-experienced means; by the total prohibition of all private paper at all times, by reasonable taxes in war aided by the necessary emissions of public paper of circulating size, this bottomed on special taxes, redeemable annually as this special tax comes in, and finally within a moderate period." --Thomas Jefferson to Albert Gallatin, 1815. ME 14:356

"Our people... will give you all the necessaries of war they produce, if, instead of the bankrupt trash they now are obliged to receive for want of any other, you will give them a paper promise funded on a specific pledge, and of a size for common circulation." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1815. ME 14:228

"Instead of funding issues of paper on the hypothecation of specific redeeming taxes (the only method of anticipating, in a time of war, the resources of times of peace, tested by the experience of nations), we are trusting to tricks of jugglers on the cards, to the illusions of banking schemes for the resources of the war, and for the cure of colic to inflations of more wind." --Thomas Jefferson to M. Correa de Serra, 1814. ME 14:224

"It is literally true that the toleration of banks of paper discount costs the United States one-half their war taxes; or, in other words, doubles the expenses of every war. Now think but for a moment, what a change of condition that would be, which should save half our war expenses, require but half the taxes, and enthral us in debt but half the time." --Thomas Jefferson to John W. Eppes, 1813. ME 13:364

"The State legislatures should be immediately urged to relinquish the right of establishing banks of discount. Most of them will comply, on patriotic principles, under the convictions of the moment; and the non-complying may be crowded into concurrence by legitimate devices." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814. ME 14:190

The Issuance of Treasury Notes

"Necessity, as well as patriotism and confidence, will make us all eager to receive treasury notes, if founded on specific taxes. Congress may borrow of the public, and without interest, all the money they may want, to the amount of a competent circulation, by merely issuing their own promissory notes, of proper denominations for the larger purposes of circulation, but not for the small. Leave that door open for the entrance of metallic money." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814. ME 14:189

 

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.

Thomas Jefferson, Letter to the Secretary of the Treasury Albert Gallatin (1802)

3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)

 

 

and Abraham Lincoln

 

The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.

Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.

 

also

http://www.californiapredatorsclub.com/index.php?showtopic=97544

[angry cat]

:

... nay corruptly alienated to swindlers and shavers, under the cover of private banks."

 

:

 

and Abraham Lincoln

 

The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered."

[angry cat]

Casino Trading and Corruption:

e.g:

Royal Bank of Scotland Story Page - USATODAY.com

 

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20100122/tbs-uk-banks-commodities-factbox-03c9bed.html

[angry cat]

Obama has shown the way on bank control | Editorial | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

 

:

The world of global finance was not so afraid of complexity when inventing assets made of mortgage debts repackaged so many times even the banks didn't know what they were buying."

[Peterbard]

Hi

 

Flippin eck

 

It was a busy week at Manchester,Abrham Lincon, how did i miss him?

You would think i would have spotted him parrticiularily with that hat.

 

Perhaps he was at the back

 

Peter:)

[angry cat]

Obama the axeman cometh:

Axeman Barack Obama cometh again - Times Online

 

 

However, Alistair Darling dares to warn; The president of the United States!?:

 

Alistair Darling warns Barack Obama over banking reforms - Times Online

[oilyrag]

removed

Edited January 27, 2010 by oilyrag
professional advice to do so

[oilyrag]

removed

Edited January 27, 2010 by oilyrag
professional advice to do so

[angry cat]

Obama bank shake-up plans to top agenda | Mail Online

 

: The President also proposed to cap the size of banks, ensuring that

'never again will the American taxpayer be held hostage by a bank that is too big to fail'.

 

The above poses the question;

What about the British taxpayer being held hostage by the same banks?

 

And; what will Chancellor Darling and the UK mein fuhrer of the bent bankers do?

 

Lord Myner's is hosting tomorrows meeting at 11 Downing Street, but he is an ex (RBS) Banker!...

 

:

'It would be odd to get everyone into the room and pretend it is not there,' said a British official'

[oilyrag]

removed

Edited January 27, 2010 by oilyrag
professional advice to do so

[seriously fed up]

Hi

 

Flippin eck

 

It was a busy week at Manchester,Abrham Lincon, how did i miss him?

You would think i would have spotted him parrticiularily with that hat.

 

Perhaps he was at the back

 

Peter:)

 

I would have thought after that wee bit of bother he had at the theatre last time that he would have known better than to sit at the back!

[angry cat]

Hi

 

Flippin eck

 

It was a busy week at Manchester,Abrham Lincon, how did i miss him?

You would think i would have spotted him parrticiularily with that hat.

 

Perhaps he was at the back

 

Peter:)

 

Flippant comment!

 

Some may consider these points to be off topic;

I and others do not.

[Peterbard]

Flippant comment!

 

Some may consider these points to be off topic;

I and others do not.

 

 

 

Absolute appology AC i now see the direct connection betwen the dead american president and a civil case set in manchester.

 

Must remember to mention it the next time i have to draft a defence.

 

 

Peter

[Peterbard]

I would have thought after that wee bit of bother he had at the theatre last time that he would have known better than to sit at the back!

 

 

Hi

 

HAH, steady sfu serious stuff this

 

Peter

[charlie*]

I am so glad to see that one by one, however slowly, members are becoming better educated about money, what it is, where it comes from, who owns it, who controls it and why.

 

Make no mistake, we don't, we are their slaves, the goy, even the politicians do as they are told or they suffer the consequences.... Abraham Lincoln and John F Kennedy were two prime examples.... there have been others - two others I think, Pres Garfield was one.

 

Anyone who really wants the truth should buy the book... it's available on Amazon for about £15 The Creature from Jekyll Island... it was this meeting in 1910 that really started the escalation of the Central Banks phenomena that we have today.... Here is a quick free briefing... Jeckyll Island and the Federal Reserve.

 

There is so much more than just getting rid of our own debts.... it's the future of our children, indeed the world itself.

 

Daily Telegraph, Tuesday, January 12th 2010

 

Full width header, page B4 (Business News Supp)

 

"Is a cashless society on the cards?"

 

It is forecast that the ultimate goal of the banks is to do away with cash money entirely.... Barclay's Bank expressed their interest a couple of years ago, today, they are rolling out their penny purchases debit card system as fast as they can and Visa are hot on their trail. The excuse they use is that it is much cheaper than using cash. The real reason however is to place every human being on the planet into slavery - make us all dependant on a plastic card or a tiny implant under the skin and they have us totally in their power until the end of time.... for without the means to identify oneself, we would not exists... just by pulling the plug.

 

THE JUDGES HAVE BEEN CAUTIONED RIGHT FROM THE TOP.

 

Another of Charlie's rants.

Edited January 24, 2010 by charlie*

[Peterbard]

I am so glad to see that one by one, however slowly, members are becoming better educated about money, what it is, where it comes from, who owns it, who controls it and why.

 

Make no mistake, we don't, we are their slaves, the goy, even the politicians do as they are told or they suffer the consequences.... Abraham Lincoln and John F Kennedy were two prime examples.... there have been others - two others I think, Pres Garfield was one.

 

Anyone who really wants the truth should buy the book... it's available on Amazon for about £15 The Creature from Jekyll Island... it was this meeting in 1910 that really started the escalation of the Central Banks phenomena that we have today.... Here is a quick free briefing... Jeckyll Island and the Federal Reserve.

 

There is so much more than just getting rid of our own debts.... it's the future of our children, indeed the world itself.

 

Daily Telegraph, Tuesday, January 12th 2010

 

Full width header, page B4 (Business News Supp)

 

"Is a cashless society on the cards?"

 

It is forecast that the ultimate goal of the banks is to do away with cash money entirely.... Barclay's Bank expressed their interest a couple of years ago, today, they are rolling out their penny purchases debit card system as fast as they can and Visa are hot on their trail. The excuse they use is that it is much cheaper than using cash. The real reason however is to place every human being on the planet into slavery - make us all dependant on a plastic card or a tiny implant under the skin and they have us totally in their power until the end of time.... for without the means to identify oneself, we would not exists... just by pulling the plug.

 

THE JUDGES HAVE BEEN CAUTIONED RIGHT FROM THE TOP.

 

Another of Charlie's rants.

 

 

Hi

 

Wowo

 

Slavery no less

 

This is serious is this book available from the library i wonder.

 

I really need to look at this which section would it be in i wonder.

 

Peter

[B3rty]

Better still read the Secret by Rhonda Byrne and start focusing on the positives rather then the negatives...especially in the Waksman judgement ...they are there if you look in the right way

[oilyrag]

removed

Edited January 27, 2010 by oilyrag
professional advice to do so

[Basil Fawlty]

B3rty

 

Have I not been saying to focus on the positives in the Waksman Judgement since the early days of the this thread. Used properly and rationally HHJW has cleverly or unwittingly rolled very nasty bombs under the banks. I fully appreciate it is not perfect, show me a civil judgement that is.

 

Banks will make use of what is good for them and try to baffle you about the bad bits for them. Should we not be adopting a similar approach to demolish their arguments. All of the claptrap that has gone on about s78 has become irrelevant. It has always in reality been the case that toilet paper will do to comply. It is a very different matter in a court when put to strict proof and even more so with HHJW's stress on the words original in his summaries of the case.

 

He has actually served notice on the banks and dcas that they had better have their house in order right back to the date of inception of the alleged agreement if they bring an alleged debtor before him in his court. Its all there in the judgement. Lets get the experts working on this defence or something similar that is watertight. This thread now runs to 51 pages.

 

regards

oilyrag.

 

The thing is, I'm reading round the forum and reading about judgements that have gone in favour of the cc companies, when they shouldnt have done so.. for example Humbleman and mydogsascottie. Both of these are since the Manchester case, so what is actually better for us now?

[PriorityOne]

The thing is, I'm reading round the forum and reading about judgements that have gone in favour of the cc companies, when they shouldnt have done so.. for example Humbleman and mydogsascottie. Both of these are since the Manchester case, so what is actually better for us now?

 

 

A cack Judge is a cack Judge. No-one can really foresee what will happen inside a courtroom until the day, which means that you take your chances and if it doesn't go the way it should (according to the law)... you have the option to Appeal that decision.