MBNA/Experto Credite - accounts mixed up & incomplete agreement, funny one

[Guest HeftyHippo]

I have had 3 accounts with MBNA: Visa, Mastercard, and Virgin Mastercard.

 

A while ago, Credite Experto wrote saying they had bought a debt. I replied saying I knew nothing about them and couldn't owe them any money. They replied a few weeks later with a letter of assignment from MBNA, and said they would provide a copy of the agreement. The agreement arrived a few days ago.

 

I am not sure if the agreement is complete (ie pages missing), but it is obvious that the top of page 2 has not been copied, it looks like the black band goes over several lines of text. Maybe that was a mistake when copying it or maybe the original is the same. It is (just) legible on the whole, though some words aren't. On the whole, I'm not sure if it is valid, and would appreciate some pointers and comments. (if you can read enough of it that is, I've scanned it at the highest res I could)

 

Under the "Important - Data protection" is a statement telling me to 'read section 11 in the terms and conditions provided'. Does that mean the agreement isn't valid as the terms are not contained within the 'four corners' of the agreement?

 

 

 

 

However, it is clear that this is actually a VIRGIN card agreement. Their name can be seen in several places.

 

Now, checking the documentation, the letters from Credite and the assignment from MBNA all reference the same account number. The balance quoted though is the Virgin account.

 

Now, up to this point, I thought there were 2 accounts outstanding - an MBNA Mastercard and a Virgin card. Looking through the recent documents, starting with the default notice, then the assignment and the letters from Credite, they all reference the same number and balance. I can find no trace of this account number before the default notice, no statements etc. The Mastercard account I thought they were talking about was closed last year with zero balance and had a different number. The Visa account I think I closed a couple of years ago because the interest rate was so high.

 

It looks like when they issued the Default notice in September, they gave the Virgin account a new number. Then they sold the debt. The only alternative is that they are talking about the Visa account but I am pretty sure that was closed 2 years ago, but I can't find any statements etc with the Visa account number.

 

Now, the DN references a paragraph 8 (second line) as the reason for demanding full repayment of the balance, but the agreement sent only has clauses up to 3.

 

 

I'm confused what to do now. I don't know for 100% sure that they did change the account number, but as the DN was the first I had seen the account number (no previous letters etc with that number) it seems the most likely thing.

 

I already think the DN is defective, and if this is a new number, never known to me before, that would make it completely invalid wouldn't it as the legislation requires some way of identifying the account? Would the fact that the other accounts are closed be their escape from that (actually, the Mastercard is shown on their online banking as 'active', even though they wrote and said they were closing it last year).

 

What's the best tactic? Should I contact them to verify that they are indeed talking abut the Virgin card, and did change the account number? Who should I contact, MBNA, or Credite?

 

If MBNA did change the account number, how do I proceed?

 

Must admit I'm a bit stumped.

[bigegg]

I would send them a letter saying something along the lines of:

"don't know what the frenchconnectionUK you are on about -

prove it or do one - cos you ain't getting any money off me"

[Guest HeftyHippo]

Thanks, bigegg, Thats actually what I did in the first place (but not in such eloquent words as yours), which resulted in the letter of assignment from MBNA (which proves Credite bought something from MBNA that MBNA claim was mine) and then the agreement, which IS mine. There's nothing to tie the agreement with my signature to the account number previously unknown to me that MBNA say is mine...

[mikeandlisa]

I have had 3 accounts with MBNA: Visa, Mastercard, and Virgin Mastercard.

 

A while ago, Credite Experto wrote saying they had bought a debt. I replied saying I knew nothing about them and couldn't owe them any money. They replied a few weeks later with a letter of assignment from MBNA, and said they would provide a copy of the agreement. The agreement arrived a few days ago.

 

I am not sure if the agreement is complete (ie pages missing), but it is obvious that the top of page 2 has not been copied, it looks like the black band goes over several lines of text. Maybe that was a mistake when copying it or maybe the original is the same. It is (just) legible on the whole, though some words aren't. On the whole, I'm not sure if it is valid, and would appreciate some pointers and comments. (if you can read enough of it that is, I've scanned it at the highest res I could)

 

Under the "Important - Data protection" is a statement telling me to 'read section 11 in the terms and conditions provided'. Does that mean the agreement isn't valid as the terms are not contained within the 'four corners' of the agreement?

 

 

 

 

However, it is clear that this is actually a VIRGIN card agreement. Their name can be seen in several places.

 

Now, checking the documentation, the letters from Credite and the assignment from MBNA all reference the same account number. The balance quoted though is the Virgin account.

 

Now, up to this point, I thought there were 2 accounts outstanding - an MBNA Mastercard and a Virgin card. Looking through the recent documents, starting with the default notice, then the assignment and the letters from Credite, they all reference the same number and balance. I can find no trace of this account number before the default notice, no statements etc. The Mastercard account I thought they were talking about was closed last year with zero balance and had a different number. The Visa account I think I closed a couple of years ago because the interest rate was so high.

 

It looks like when they issued the Default notice in September, they gave the Virgin account a new number. Then they sold the debt. The only alternative is that they are talking about the Visa account but I am pretty sure that was closed 2 years ago, but I can't find any statements etc with the Visa account number.

 

Now, the DN references a paragraph 8 (second line) as the reason for demanding full repayment of the balance, but the agreement sent only has clauses up to 3.

 

 

I'm confused what to do now. I don't know for 100% sure that they did change the account number, but as the DN was the first I had seen the account number (no previous letters etc with that number) it seems the most likely thing.

 

I already think the DN is defective, and if this is a new number, never known to me before, that would make it completely invalid wouldn't it as the legislation requires some way of identifying the account? Would the fact that the other accounts are closed be their escape from that (actually, the Mastercard is shown on their online banking as 'active', even though they wrote and said they were closing it last year).

 

What's the best tactic? Should I contact them to verify that they are indeed talking abut the Virgin card, and did change the account number? Who should I contact, MBNA, or Credite?

 

If MBNA did change the account number, how do I proceed?

 

Must admit I'm a bit stumped.

I dont think that is a valid default letter. They have demanded the whole sum to be repaid and said they will close the account (their business) if you dont pay. Im sure someone more knowledgeable will comment.

[gezwee]

MBNA being MBNA will have defaulted on a charged off account number at full balance (no remedy figure or existing account number)....... ie they believe they can transfer all rights and duties to another account somewhere within the t&c's.

 

There lies the rub, did they default for full balance? Did they terminate? Did they assign to a third party?

 

Without sight of the DN and date of service its a hard one to judge.

 

I've got one with capquest....... followed up with a SAR to MBNA showing no sight of NOA, did however throw up a DN which resembles not a jot of that served.

 

Have not corresponded with capquest but have advised the OC that I acknowledge their rescission of contract and charge off of balance to zero.

 

I think a SAR to MBNA may help resolve any issues. As for the 'agreement' - looked as hard as I could but couldnt see the creditors signature box anywhere

[Bazooka Boo]

OK, Virgin CC are underwritten by MBNA, so have Virgin Or MBNA sent you a DN? If so what is the date on the letter, and what was the postage mark on the envelope?

 

Has the account been terminated?

 

Have you received a Notice of Assignment? Or have you simply conceived a letter from the Original Creditor (OC) stating that they have passed your account on to some other unfortunate dim wit??

[MandM]

MBNA sold a whole bunch of us off in september and October. Have a dig around in your credit file and see when they sold you. You might be surprised. And it may help.

 

M

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/237488-mbna-account-sold-exerto.html

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/226658-mandm-mbna-virgin-money.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/225840-pumpy-tums-mbna.html

[Guest HeftyHippo]

Default Notice? Yes, the big white page at the bottom of my post.

 

Terminated? Yes, I think when they sell it to a 3rd party, it'd definitely terminated.

 

Assignment? Yes, letter from MBNA received assigning it to Experto Credite.

 

I thought those details were clearly stated.

A while ago, Credite Experto wrote saying they had bought a debt. I replied saying I knew nothing about them and couldn't owe them any money. They replied a few weeks later with a letter of assignment from MBNA, and said they would provide a copy of the agreement. The agreement arrived a few days ago.

 

My concern is not if the DN has the right dates/content/underlining etc (I don't think it does), that will take care of itself. My concern is whether the original agreement is valid cos if it isn't, everything else is academic. Secondly, the best way to discover if MBNA did change the account number for the Virgin card when they issued the DN and subsequent Assignment, and whether that invalidates the DN even if the dates/content/underlining etc is correct.

[Guest HeftyHippo]

Update. (sorry, forgot to say thanks, for your input earlier)

 

Thanks for the links MandM... they are a shower aren't they?

 

Anyway, done some research, and I'm almost certain that the account they're talking about is the Virgin. All Visa account numbers start with "4". Mastercards start with "5". The 'new' account number MBNA quoted on the Default Notice starts with "5". In fact, the first 7 numbers are the same as the Virgin. It's not likely they'd change a Visa account to a Mastercard, and I'm pretty sure they Visa was closed 2 years ago anyway.

 

Those links from MandM......... hmmm. Got me checking. The Default Notice was dated 7th Sept (Monday), with rectification date 24th..... which I reckon is only 13 days. But..... the letter from Credite saying they have bought MBNA's interest in the account including the balance and are now the legal owner of the account was dated.... 23rd. So MBNA sold the debt even before the Default Notice expired. (Do they try hard to screw things up or does it come natural? Is it any wonder the economy is in a mess with the industry being run like this?)

 

So, what's the next step? Confirmation that MBNA did change the account number? How do I proceed with telling Credite that they've been sold a dog with no bark?

 

On another note, regarding the sell off, PayPlan told me that MBNA would most likely sell the debt rather than have a DMP as that's what they usually do.

[palomino]

MBNA runs the Virgin credit card scheme for Virgin. Hence, in your case, this is almost certainly what the account is for.

[Guest HeftyHippo]

any comments on the agreement?

[MandM]

Hi HH,

 

Interersting link for you..............

 

M

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements-guide.html

[Guest HeftyHippo]

Thanks, going off to read that....

[In The Know]

Hi,

 

just to let you all know;

 

Experto Credite do not purchase debt, but rather act on behalf of a company of investors who do.

 

MBNA have written to all account holders who's debts have been sold on and Experto Credite have in turn written to the same consumers confirming that they act on behalf of the new assignees.

 

This does not mean that you have received the correspondence, but rest assurred that the letters have non the less been sent.

 

The Experto correspondence does not state that 'they' have purchased the debt.

 

With regards to client ref numbers, ie the original card number to which debts relate..MBNA supplied Experto with a number which they used to replace the original one in order to remove the debts from their ledgers, apparently this is the only way they could incorporate the removal of same from their system.

 

Experto have since been supplied with the correct numbers and will happily supply you with the same if you give them a call.

 

You should note that this particular Collections Company is very strong in compliance matters and they will endeavour to help you in which ever way they can, unlike many others which we all know about.

 

You should find negotitaion with this company quite straight forward also as their training standards are high and they will not harrass you or attempt to force you in to payments you can't make.

 

I know it is un usual for me to give a thumbs up to to a Debt Rcovery Company, but this one should not pose you any problems.

 

Good Luck

ITK

[ScarletPimpernel]

Experto Credite do not purchase debt, but rather act on behalf of a company of investors who do.

 

 

Really? Not according to their own website:

 

Throughout 2009, the acquisition of distressed consumer debt portfolios is set to be the biggest area of growth and development for us at Experto Credite.

 

In any case, the NOA should make clear to whom an account was assigned. In this case OP seems fairly clear that it was the risibly-named Experto Credite. If they didn't buy it, but the NOA states that they did, it would appear to be a fairly clear case of conspiracy to commit fraud by misrepresentation.

[pumpytums]

Hi,

 

just to let you all know;

 

Experto Credite do not purchase debt, but rather act on behalf of a company of investors who do. :D

 

MBNA have written to all account holders who's debts have been sold on and Experto Credite have in turn written to the same consumers confirming that they act on behalf of the new assignees. :D:D

 

This does not mean that you have received the correspondence, but rest assurred that the letters have non the less been sent. :D

 

The Experto correspondence does not state that 'they' have purchased the debt. Odd how the MBNA comms log says differently. Additionally how peoples CRA entries mention EC

 

With regards to client ref numbers, ie the original card number to which debts relate..MBNA supplied Experto with a number which they used to replace the original one in order to remove the debts from their ledgers, apparently this is the only way they could incorporate the removal of same from their system.

 

Experto have since been supplied with the correct numbers and will happily supply you with the same if you give them a call.

 

You should note that this particular Collections Company is very strong in compliance matters and they will endeavour to help you in which ever way they can, unlike many others which we all know about. :lol::lol:

 

You should find negotitaion with this company quite straight forward also as their training standards are high and they will not harrass you or attempt to force you in to payments you can't make. :lol:

 

I know it is un usual for me to give a thumbs up to to a Debt Rcovery Company, but this one should not pose you any problems.

 

Good Luck

ITK

 

 

Wow they sound so great I shall phone them today, maybe invite them round for tea and crumpets.

 

Please give people the benefit of a modicum of intelligence.

 

Pumpytums

Edited January 6, 2010 by pumpytums

[In The Know]

Dear Scarlet Pmpernel & Pumpytums,

 

firstly, acquisition does not mean purchase..it mean to acquire..not the same thing at all..Experto do not purchase debt..secondly, if you have read any of my previous entries you would be well aware that I treat everybody on this forum with the intelligance they deserve.

 

Just because the debt recovery industry doesn't have the greatest reputation in the country, this does not mean that they are all 'monkeys' as I believe somebody has quoted.

 

Some of them are happy to treat consumers like human beings and discuss cases on their merit, unfortunately, the consumer fails to want to see it this way when it is them that has to find the money to repay that which they had originally glady spent.

 

So many consumers are happy to pay the real monkeys fees, the ones that attempt to convince you that agreements may not be enforceable and so should not be paid back.

 

99.9% of credit agreements can be enforced and for the most part, neither a creditor nor a collection agency actually wants to enforce the debt, they simply want there money back and they expect that because you have agreed to repay a debt, that you will do so.

 

It is at this point that the consumers morals fly out of the window so to speak.

 

For those of you who actually wish to deal with your debt situation rather than evading it, which is quite a different and very serious position to place yourself in, all I am saying is that you will do much worse than to speak to this particular collection agency...that is if you have 'a modicum of intelligance ' of course.

 

Kind Regards

ITK

[In The Know]

(And yes, the word was misspelt on purpose).

 

ITK

[pumpytums]

Dear Scarlet Pmpernel & Pumpytums,

 

firstly, acquisition does not mean purchase..it mean to acquire..not the same thing at all..Experto do not purchase debt..secondly, if you have read any of my previous entries you would be well aware that I treat everybody on this forum with the intelligance they deserve.

 

 

 

 

How very odd indeed because I believe the word purchase is used on Exspurtos website and the word bought on their welcome letters!!

 

I have read your previous entries and they are very useful and informative. I just wonder why the interest in plugging EC. A change of heart maybe, career or indeed person after nearly 10 months?

 

Give my regards to Stefan & Paul;)

 

 

Pumpytums

[ScarletPimpernel]

From Experto Credite's own website, again:

 

Debt Purchase

 

For some Clients, debt sale provides a fast and efficient method of releasing significant amounts of capital tied up in existing receivables. At Experto Credite, our senior management team has extensive knowledge and experience of purchasing large distressed consumer portfolios throughout Europe. This knowledge, together with substantial financial backing, puts us in an extremely strong position to develop and expand this part of our business.

 

You'll forgive me, ITK, but that appears to me to mean that they acquire debt by purchase. Why would they say they do it if they do not? But then, they say they are fully compliant, and yet one of their senior people used to head up Ruthbridge; a story that the Pope had embraced Islam would be more believable.

 

You did not, I note, choose to comment upon my point that if the NOA stated that the debt was assigned to Experto Credite (you know, just typing that silly name makes me smile, so I am grateful to them for that if nothing else), when in fact it was assigned (by way of purchase) to another company - the investment company you mention - then it would be false, misleading and probably criminal. If the investors bought the debt, the original NOA would have to show this, and a subsequent assignment (even if not by purchase) to EC would require a further NOA. What say you?

[ScarletPimpernel]

(And yes, the word was misspelt on purpose).

 

ITK

 

No doubt the bit about creditors wanting 'there money back' was similarly intentional misspelling...

[In The Know]

No, that was an error.

 

Even I make them sometimes, but only sometimes.

 

ITK

[In The Know]

If the NOA you relate to is the 'Goodbye' letter issued by MBNA, then this is their error and not that of Experto Credite, if the NOA relates to the 'Hello' letter from Experto sent to all debtors, then the debts have simply been passed to Experto by Varde Investements.

 

With this I see no problem.

 

You are incorrect by the way that anybody working at Experto Credite ever 'headed up Ruthbridge'.

 

That company has always been under the ownership of he who will not be mentioned.. (I don't want to be rude).

 

Stefan Russell, who you are obviously referring to, was the Sales Manager there in the past, but he made the intelligent move of releaving himself from that motley crew.

 

Finally the text you have quoted does not state that Experto Credite have/does purchase debt.

 

It states that their knowledge along with financial backing puts them in a strong position in this field...this may or may not be true, but all it means is that as managers of debt 'purchased' by the 'financial backing company' (Varde Investements) they have the required experience to be able to deal with purchased debt.

 

Hope this clarifies things for you.

 

ITK

[MandM]

just to throw a (slight) spanner in here .

 

My MBNA account was 'sold' to Varde Investments (Ireland) Limited and they state that they are now the 'legal owner' of my account.

 

In the same letter they state that Exspurto Credite have been appointed by Varde to 'recover any and all outstanding sums'.

 

A month later I received a letter from MBNA stating that the letter was confirmation that my 'outstanding balance due under the above account has been assigned to EC'.

 

In the same envelope is a letter from EC saying 'Please find enclosed deed of assignment for the above account.......'.

 

So who owns the debt?

 

M

[In The Know]

Varde Investments own the debt.

 

Experto Credite are the Asset Managers acting on their behalf.

 

MBNA have made obvious errors in the wording of their correspondence, but again Experto have no control over this.

 

Hope this helps.

 

ITK