Santander Card/Loan

[biscuits42]

Hello all.... I'm looking for some advice if there's anyone that can help....

 

I have a Debenhams mastercard, and my partner an Asda loan, both now under Santander (formerly GE Capital) amongst other debts. Following advice found on this site, we sent CCA requests to all our creditors. We got all of them sent back and they all seem ok (except Egg, but we're getting to that separately) so we completed a budget sheet (income and expenditure) downloaded from National Debtline site and sent it off to each with a token offer of £1... the sheet showed we had no available income to pay creditors following my redundancy, but we figured offering token payments was a more viable solution. Our other three creditors all accepted fairly quickly, but Santander are being awkward. I'll separate out the two for easier reading.

 

First... Debenhams Card. Sent original offer and I&E sheet 19/09/09 and cancelled all direct debits. I also made the £1 payment offered and stated this in my first letter. 9/10/09 I sent a second offer letter as Santander said that they couldn't accept our offer as there had been a recent charge to the card (this was a £3 recurring payment I'd forgotten to cancel, but was about 4 weeks before first letter). 1/11/09 sent a third letter as I had had no response to second, but many, many phonecalls (we always refused to speak to them, just hung up) so reiterated in third letter that all correspondence must be in writing, and reiterated offer made. I have also continued to make the £1 payments each month and included a copy of the I&E in each letter. I have now received a letter from Santander stating that I must complete one of THEIR I&E sheets, which includes a list of "assets" they say we should complete... and return along with bank statements, utility bills etc to prove our financial situation. I have assumed that they are not entitled to this information and that they are simply fishing for a way out. So I have written back telling them that I have been informed (again information found on this site) that I am not required to provide any proof of my income/expenditure to them.

 

Second - Asda loan.

Initial letter sent a little later, as they were later sending CCA back. Their first offer letter and I&E went out 1/11/09 and I have received a letter from Santander dated 17/11/09 stating that they cannot help us as we have not provided any proof of our income and have returned my original letter (it's in my partner's name, but I do all the paperwork ) with the I&E sheet attached and the words PROOF??? scribbled on it. They are again asking for all sorts of bank statements, bills, etc to prove our income.

 

My understanding is that only the courts can request this info, but I'm eager to avoid court and am concerned that even mentioning it in a letter will cause them to take such action. I was going to write back saying that I know they're not entitled to such info, and that the form I've sent them contains all relevant information and that only courts are entitled to any more, but I don't want them to say "Ok... off to court we go... " Can anyone offer any pearls of wisdom on this?

 

The daft thing is our financial situation is probably worse now than when we filled in the form, albeit very slightly, but I still want to offer the token payments to show that I am prepared to make an effort to reduce the debt, however little we can afford.

Edited November 26, 2009 by biscuits42

[biscuits42]

Ok.... there may be a slight twist in this tale. After posting this, I was having a quick look around the site and decided to have a look at the CCA sent by Santander for the Debenhams card. It was originally a £500 store card, upgraded to a Mastercard a few years ago and I've had it since 1999. It's now around £9000.

 

They have sent a copy of my original application form which has a box at the bottom which states:

" This is a Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Sign it only if you want to be legally bound by its terms"

Then has space for signature, and my signature, along with the date. When I received this I assumed it to be accurate as it is indeed my signature, and the form I filled in instore to apply for the card. Also supplied on a separate (A3) sheet was a photocopy of something labelled Additional Conditions. This states "you will be considered for both a Debenhams Mastercard and Debenhams Storecard. If you are accepted the type of card offered will depend on your personal circumstances" which means it cannot possibly be my original T&Cs as the Debenhams Mastercard did not exist in 1999! Most concerningly (partly because this is the first time I've noticed it ) is the blank square on one of the sheets that looks very much like someone put a piece of paper between the original and the photocopier to blank something out. Here are links to copies of the documents sent. Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

Sent on 1 A4 sheet... copy of application form

 

For some reason the next two were sent side by side on one A3 sheet of paper?

Edited November 22, 2009 by biscuits42

[biscuits42]

Also can anyone clarify on the CCA... I've been reading around the site and the general consensus seems to be that an application form is not a CCA, but does that still count if the application form states that it is also a CCA... The credit was available immediately for purchases in store, so I don't think I ever received anything else to sign... just this that was done there and then. The next step was the actual card arriving, but the goods we purchased on the day were added to the account straight away. Would this affect the application form/CCA rules?

[biscuits42]

Bump... still hoping for advice

[biscuits42]

Anyone?? I'd really appreciate some advice...

[biscuits42]

If I've posted this in the wrong place could someone please let me know! I'm getting pretty desperate for answers now

[citizenB]

Hi Biscuit,

 

I think for the present time you are in the correct forum.

 

Yes, you are correct, you are not legally obliged to provide Santander or any other creditor with such personal financial information. Only a court can order you provide this and it wouldnt be to Santander but an officer of the court who would be looking at it.

 

Do you have a current account with the Santander group ?. If so, I would be inclined to start a Basic bank account with another group.

 

I cant offer much help with your documents, so I will try and find someone who can help.

[steven4064]

Hi buscuits

 

the first page is a valid consumer credit agreement for a credit card. It has your signature, the terms prescribed in schedules 1 and 6 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 and a valid "Your right to cancel" box. It is therefore properly executed and enforceable. The other 2 pages are irrelevant.

 

Some might argue that it should be headed "Credit Card Agreement...." but that wouldnt make any difference to its ultimate enforceability

[hammyhound]

Biscuits,

 

take the account number off your agreement, people do watch.

 

Is this the same account number as your current card?

 

If it isn't we were in the same boat and have asked for a copy of the credit agreement relating to our present card. I was told that a credit agreement should be produced and signed by you when you upgrade etc.

 

Our application form had the old number on and this is what Howard Cohen will rely on in court. Our defence sorry Judge but that card does not exist ask the Claimant to check, it was closed in 2001 and another card opened with a completely new number but unfortunately no credit agreement exists!!!!

[biscuits42]

Thanks for replies...

 

CitizenB... no, no current account with Santander, just the card and the Asda loan. Thanks for confirming my suspicions about their requests for more personal financial info.

 

steven4064... thanks for confirming that. I had a feeling it would be enforceable since as far as I could tell it had all the prescribed terms, but did noticed a lot of people had been sent application forms that weren't valid CCAs so wanted to check.

 

Hammyhound... the account number on that agreement hasn't been accurate for many years... the actual account number that is current is the 3rd or 4th I've had after a problem a while ago where they called to advise that my card security had a suspected breach so they issued a replacement.

 

Do you think I should be arguing the case for a CCA for my new card number? Or at the very least an agreement for the Mastercard that the original storecard was converted to... the application/agreement above is for the original storecard.

[hammyhound]

Well what have you got to lose, that is what we are arguing, surely when you take out a new card you should have received a new agreement to sign. I bet if you rang Santander and gave that account number they will say "it is a closed account". I like others have said this all along, If they rely on that credit agreement, there is no balance and therefore no debt. They must produce a credit agreement with your current account number on together with the terms and conditions that came with that card.

 

HH

[biscuits42]

The T&Cs that they sent are the ones for my current card ( I think ) as they mention the Debenhams Mastercard, and whilst I forget exactly when it was converted, it was certainly several years after the original store card agreement and the Debenhams Mastercard didn't exist in any form back then, there was just the store card. I seem to remember receiving a letter to say that they intended to start up the Mastercard option and saying that if I did nothing it would automatically convert, and if I wanted to remain with the storecard I'd have to call them. The interest rate on the proposed Mastercard was lower so I left it and received the new card shortly after.

 

I'll write to them asking why they have sent a CCA for an account which no longer exists... my letter did ask for the CCA for the current Mastercard account number, obviously not the long gone store card account... it didn't occur to me that that wasn't what they'd sent. Thanks HH! Will give it a go - nothing to lose I suppose.

[citizenB]

From what you are saying they changed the entire account from storecard to mastercard, with a new account number to boot.. So yes, I too would be asking where is the new agreement I signed.

[biscuits42]

CitizenB... yes, that's exactly what happened. I'll get a letter off to them asking why they haven't fulfilled my original request as my letter stated the current card account number, not the old store card one, so technically what they have sent is incorrect. Will let you know how I get on. Thanks to all for the advice

[biscuits42]

I have a quick question about the letter I'm about to send... should it be another CCA request with £1 included and the usual timescales, or should I just send one telling them they have failed to comply and giving them another timescale? If the latter, what should the timescale for compliance be? TIA

 

Oh and I forgot to mention that they have sent me a default notice for this account

Edited November 28, 2009 by biscuits42

[citizenB]

biscuit, no you are not sending another CCA request.. you are sending a chaser asking them why they havent complied with the original request sent on ...... you can give them any time you like, but I would say, either 7 or 10 days.

 

Can you remove any identifying parts from the default notice and post it up for us to have a look at.

[biscuits42]

Thanks CitizenB. I've done a scan of the default letter I received (which also came with the standard OFT information leaflet and was received the day after I sent the follow up letter on 1/11/09 so a bit of a cross over I think). I've also looked over the original letter I received in response to my CCA request - it clearly says:

"Please find enclosed a true copy of your original agreement opened under reference xxxxxx (and lists my original storecard account number), together with a copy of the Terms and Conditions" (which were only recent T&Cs, not original ones).

 

[citizenB]

biscuit, the notice is not compliant with the regulations in that is says

 

"To remedy this breach you must pay the arears within 14 days from receipt of this notice."

 

What happens if you didnt receive it until a week next Christmas ??. They have to put a specific date and make allowances for the method of postage.

 

ie 2 working days for 1st class

4 working days for 2nd and UK mail service.

 

Do you know if there are any charges/late payment fees in the sum they are requesting ?

[biscuits42]

I did wonder how they'd know when I actually received it. It's dated 27/10/09 but didn't arrive til 2/11/09!

 

I'm pretty sure there are late payment fees and charges as they've so far refused to confirm whether they will hold these. The other Santander account we have (Asda loan) following CCA just sent us a letter saying that they wouldn't hold charges etc as we weren't making min payments (which I'm guessing is going to be their response on the Debenhams account too)

[citizenB]

I am thinking it might be a good idea for you to invest £10.00 and send a Subject Access Request to Santander (or whoever) and ask for EVERYTHING they have in respect of these accounts, including statements, copy contracts, etc. You might just find something interesting

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/576-subject-access-request-debt-a-dca

 

HTH

[biscuits42]

Thanks for the advice CitizenB - think I'll do that, but will also send the letter notifying them that I'm disputing the account til they send me a correct CCA alongside it. Having read through the link that you provided, it states that I should send a £10 postal order, is there a specific reason cheques aren't mentioned? Is it a bad idea to send a cheque? Obviously there's the signature issue, but I thought of getting my partner to sign it as it's a joint account... or am I asking for trouble?

 

Thanks again.

[citizenB]

Thanks for the advice CitizenB - think I'll do that, but will also send the letter notifying them that I'm disputing the account til they send me a correct CCA alongside it. Having read through the link that you provided, it states that I should send a £10 postal order, is there a specific reason cheques aren't mentioned? Is it a bad idea to send a cheque? Obviously there's the signature issue, but I thought of getting my partner to sign it as it's a joint account... or am I asking for trouble?

 

Thanks again.

 

No reason you shouldnt be able to send a cheque if it has been signed by someone else It is easier tracked than a postal order.

 

I think mostly, a lot of people dont have cheque books now aside from the signature issue which is why postal orders are suggested.

[biscuits42]

Great... thanks. Off to write some letters

[biscuits42]

I sent the SAR on 30th Nov, along with a letter for the Asda loan stating that we would not be completing their I&E form as we had already submitted more information than we were required to. Santander have now sent a letter from the Asda loan stating that they have not yet received our completed I&E and that we must return it for our request for reduced payments to be considered. They have made a big point of stating that they are continuing to add interest and charges to the account and will do so until we send them their I&E form back completed... they are also demanding that we send evidence along with it. The letter closes by saying that the hold which has been placed on the account (which we knew nothing about as they haven't mentioned this til now) will be removed if we haven't complied within 14 days and "collections activity will resume". Not sure where to go from here... do I just send back another letter telling them they've had all the info they're going to get? I don't want to encourage them to begin court proceedings or anything as the debt is for less than £4,000.

 

I, as yet, haven't received the info requested from Santander re: Debenhams card following my subject access request.

[biscuits42]

Following on from yesterday's post - I forgot to mention that they haven't really called since my last letter in which I threatened formal complaint for harrassment. However, this afternoon I've had a call from someone called Viking Services saying they're calling on behalf of Santander. I've refused to speak to them and advised that I'm awaiting a response to a subject access request and that I will only deal with them in writing. Then I hung up before he could say anything else. Does this mean Santander have passed the debt onto a DCA? How does this affect my SAR?