sainsburys credit card CCA return - now sold to cabot

[heliosfa]

spamheed sorry you are quite correct I go overboard at times with capitals and dots,will mend my ways.legislation I refer to is Mcguffick v HSBC,my account in dispute goes back to Feb 2009 pre Mcguffick,that is why I am asking if the legislation in force Feb 2009 applies?and not the current legislation. thankyou FS

Just to clarify something for you Firstship, Mcguffick is not legislation, it is a court case. There are we have several sources of law of law in the UK and it might make it easier for you to understand what is going on if you are aware of how these sources are different

 

Statutes/Legislation: law legislated by parliament in Acts and Statutory Instruments. E.G. the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is legislation.

 

Case Law/Common law: Decisions made in "more senior" courts is binding on lower courts. This is the judiciary's view on how Statutory law is interprited and applied. will affect any future court action based on the same or similar facts, E.G. McGuffick allows a creditor to supply a reconstituted agreement in response to a S77/9 request but it does not allow them to get away with a reconstituted agreement for court action, no matter how many ways the creditors twist it.

 

 

As to whether McGuffick applies in a "retrospective" sense - yes it does. Case lawis how a statute is to be interprited and will apply to to any cases which come after it.

 

 

Hope this helps,

H

[firstship]

Many thanks Heliosfa,

think I understand the info supplied,

your Case Law/Common Law,is the area I should be using not Legislation,

Thankyou

 

Diddydicky.

Likewise thankyou,

it is my assumption that they cannot produce an agreement

,they will not put it exactly in writing,

they imply that (that is Halifax and 3 DCAs) that all data has been supplied to me,

which is not true as the agreement,

application form and interest rate letter have not been supplied,

 

 

I have written to the OC and the 3 DCAs on a number of occasions but they will not respond apart from,

they have supplied all the data available.

 

 

many thanks.

 

DX100uk,I note your intervention to my thread and I will comply in future

.thankyou,

appreciated

 

 

thanks to all of you FS

[nicklea]

that all data has been supplied to me,which is not true as the agreement,application form and interest rate letter have not been supplied,I have written to the OC and the 3 DCAs on a number of occasions but they will not respond apart from,they have supplied all the data available.many thanks.

 

Can I ask, what exactly is it that they have supplied you with?

[nicklea]

ok, I've had a look at your other thread where you say what they have provided you with:-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?185822-firstship-v-Halifax&p=2087091&viewfull=1#post2087091

 

and later where you say they responded to a SAR request.

 

You must remember that they do not have to supply a copy of the signed agreement under a s77/78 CCA request. Also, they do not need to send you a copy of the signed agreement under a SAR request either.

 

There is a fundamental distinction between the right of access to data in the hands of another person for the purposes of protecting privacy, and the right to disclosure of documents. Many people are under the misunderstanding that the right to access to data is necessarily the same thing as a right to disclosure of documents. It is not.

 

The court of appeal has held that although copies of original documents may well be sent that it is not a necessity. This is from Durant v Financial Services Authority [2003] EWCA Civ 1746:-

 

The intention of the Directive, faithfully reproduced in the Act, is to enable an individual to obtain from a data controller's filing system, whether computerised or manual, his personal data, that is, information about himself. It is not an entitlement to be provided with original or copy documents as such, but, as section 7(1)©(i) and 8(2) provide, with information constituting personal data in intelligible and permanent form. This may be in documentary form prepared for the purpose and/or where it is convenient in the form of copies of original documents redacted if necessary to remove matters that do not constitute personal data (and/or to protect the interests of other individuals under section 7(4) and (5) of the Act).

[diddydicky]

Many thanks Heliosfa,think I understand the info supplied,your Case Law/Common Law,is the area I should be using not Legislation, Thankyou

 

 

Diddydicky.Likewise thankyou,it is my assumption that they cannot produce an agreement,they will not put it exactly in writing,they imply that (that is Halifax and 3 DCAs) that all data has been supplied to me,which is not true as the agreement,application form and interest rate letter have not been supplied,I have written to the OC and the 3 DCAs on a number of occasions but they will not respond apart from,they have supplied all the data available.many thanks.

 

DX100uk,I note your intervention to my thread page No5 and I will comply in future.thankyou, appreciated

 

 

thanks to all of you FS

 

 

although initially you should not stop payments- and taking into account references to credit files- there may may later come a time when- because the OC and /or his minions are ignoring or not taking your complaints seriously- that you could then write and tell them that unless the give satisfactory answers to your complaints by a certain date- you will cease payments until such time as they respond

 

you will still get your credit file trashed but it will be seen later as a reasonable action AND you could place a copy of that letter on your CRA files to explain why payments were stopped

[firstship]

Nicklea,thankyou for your reply I admit that I was not aware of the exact responses that CCA and SAR can produce and limitations as covered in your reply,and IMO I am far from being alone in this matter,this is the first time I have seen this explanation.I will take this onboard.Thankyou.FS

 

 

Diddydicky.I thankyou for your time with your replies,your approach suggested on the above page makes utter sense I have been writing so many letters that have followed the general recommended replies to DCAs,I could have been so much further down the road to resolving this matter.thankyou FS

[firstship]

Hi..received a letter from Cabot with a photocopy of a letter from Sainsburys re CC

 

Cabot state they purchased the debt although their letter is dated 21st Feb 2011 they do not state on what date they purchased the debt.

 

The photo copy of the Sainsbury letter states notice of assignment effective 7th Feb 2011 their letter also dated 21st Feb 2011

 

is this all OK with the dates?

 

Sainsbury have not contacted me at all apart from the photo copy enclosed with the Cabot letter.

 

I feel Sainsbury had a duty to contact me,is this correct or not ?

 

Thanks in advance FS

[nicklea]

Sainsburys don't have to contact you, notice can come from anyone

[firstship]

Nicklea,thanks for your reply

 

,surely on this basis,I can say to Cabot I have never heard of your company,I need confirmation from Sainsburys(not a photocopy from Cabot) that they have sold the debt.

 

Or am I just being pedantic?

 

FS

[nicklea]

I would suggest that you do not write to Cabot at all.

 

The reason for this is that you can then plausibly deny having ever received any notice of assignment from Cabot. This is a very strong defence if they ever try to take you to court. However, if you do contact them then you cannot sensibly claim that you hasve not received notice of the assignment

[firstship]

nicklea,thanks at present I will just sit tight as you suggest and wait for things to evolve

 

FS

 

Anybody any ideas concerning the dates re page 1 of this thread are they correct or do they fall outside of the requirements,I feel sure I read on various threads 21 days or is it 14 days??

 

thanks FS

[nicklea]

I think that you are probably getting confused with default notices. From what you have said they haven't mentioned the date that the assignment took place. The date is only relevant if they say that there was an assignment dated xx/xx/2010 etc

 

The assignment is only effective from the date that you receive notice of it. That is why I suggest that you do not admit receiving notice.

[firstship]

Nicklea,thanks,your last paragraph puts my mind at rest,will stay quiet,

 

FS

 

Had letter from Cabot saying they own a Sainsburys debt,this is news to me.

 

Wrote to Cabot if you own this debt where are the Letters of Assignment.

 

Reply..

stating date they purchased the debt and a" representation" of the letter from Sainsburys

(showing the assignment) but no date on this representation letter apart from a note in pencil the date they say they sent the letter.

 

 

The Sainsbury letter is not a photocopy,

so Cabot must have a supply of Sainsbury headed notepaper

 

I am not happy that I get an Assignment letter from Cabot,trying to tell me this is the letter Sainsbury produced when it is so obvious that Cabot produced it.

 

Can they do this?

 

Thanks FS

[rebel11]

Thread moved.

[Revenant]

Hi FS

 

It has been mentioned in other threads that some OC's allow DCA's to use their letter heads in some circumstances

 

In my opinion it's a fraudulent activity

 

I'm sure other's that have received similar or have more knowledge will be along

 

Regards

 

R

[Fred Bassett]

Had letter from Cabot saying they own a Sainsburys debt,this is news to me.

 

Wrote to Cabot if you own this debt where are the Letters of Assignment.

 

Reply.. stating date they purchased the debt and a" representation" of the letter from Sainsburys(showing the assignment) but no date on this representation letter apart from a note in pencil the date they say they sent the letter.The Sainsbury letter is not a photocopy,so Cabot must have a supply of Sainsbury headed notepaper

 

I am not happy that I get an Assignment letter from Cabot,trying to tell me this is the letter Sainsbury produced when it is so obvious that Cabot produced it.

 

Can they do this?

 

Thanks FS

 

This is all that you ever get from Cabot. I'm convinced that there is some skullduggery going on somewhere but haven't been able to work out what or how to use it to my advantage.

[firstship]

Fred B I very much agree there is something amiss,and I have my doubts about the legality of Cabot producing Sainsbury letters,I have had the same issue with Experto and MBNA,Experto are or have been using the old MBNA letter head,they are that clever.....,I dont think

 

FS

[Tingy]

Have a read of page 71 of this link. It only came into force on Feb 1st 2011 so many companies are still unaware of their responsiblities under it. It may help you.

 

http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/consumer-issues/docs/c/10-1053-consumer-credit-directive-guidance.pdf

[firstship]

Tingy Hi. Thanks very much for the link,it does throw a new light on the Assignment Subject

 

Thanks FS

[firstship]

Now received a letter from 1st credit letter of Assignment and a photocopy of a Halifax letter of Assignment,not happy that 1st Credit have sent the Halifax Assignment but I am sure this is OK from a legal standpoint.

 

The only snag is Halifax have sold this debt whilst the Account is in Dispute and has been for 2.1/2 years ,they have never produced an agreement or even a Recon Agreement,I am concerned that if I push 1st Credit they will produce a Recon Agreement.

 

There are over £1000 in charges and interest added by Halifax over the period of dispute,have written many times but they are not interested,and as I have not paid them any money for 3 years I have not been interested either well not much.

 

Ist credit purchased the debt at the begining of the month,did not receive a Default from Halifax.This debt has been through Capquest and Westcot, + HL solicitors (bless)

 

I think 1st Credit have been in serious trouble with either OFT/FOB for their tactics,so not happy dealing with them but I am sure there is little choice

 

Any ideas PLEASE of which letter I should send to 1stCredit

 

Thankyou FS

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi Firstship,

There's been a rash of these assignments this week. You're right about the OFT - they were censured and monitored re issuing so many Stat Demands. Halifax dropped them in 2009 for this but they've obviously kissed and made up.

Unless they sent that NA by recorded delivery, as they should, I would ignore and just wait and see what they do next...watch the other 1st Credit threads too.

 

Elsa x

[firstship]

Elsa,thanks,the idea of ignoring them appeals.

 

You think even though Halifax sold a debt that is in Dispute(which we are aware they must not do)still ignore 1stCredit

 

Thanks FS

[Undercover-Elsa]

The powers that be - OFT & FOS seem to turn a blind eye to accounts sold while in dispute.

Do you have a copy of the OFT guidance on response to CCA Requests and what they can and can't do if they don't comply?

 

I've attached one for you just in case.

 

Elsa x

OFT-section77-79Requests.pdf

[firstship]

Elsa,thanks you have saved me a lot of time,I have read the plain English version,it certainly has changed,

 

many thanks FS

 

QUESTION..

many of us have had the experience from more than one DCA (debt purchaser),

 

where they the DCA has provided Letters of Assignment on the OCs headed notepaper,

 

but it is so obvious they the DCA have been the author of the Assignment not the OC.

 

By using a photocopy of the OCs letterhead and passing it of as coming from the OC surely this is fraud??????????

 

FS

[ims21]

Hi fs

 

I know what you mean. However, I don't think that the OC has to advise the assignment...it can come solely from the new owner. So it isn't necesssary for them to play that game at all.

 

I think that maybe the use of letterheads is licensed in some way?

 

Regards

 

ims