Forcing Religion on the Young

[Thailand]

Yeah - every religion has bad people, because the world has bad people. Some of these people believe in a religion - therefore every relgion has bad people. Point being the religion bit has no relevence.

 

No need to be sorry DD, but thanks, I just hate all religions because they are pathetic - all designed to have someone to share their fears with. I just choose friends or the bus driver because of their tangibility. I am unlikely to father a child (!) but I know I'd never corrupt a child's brain with nonsense. It's easier not to preach delusion than go ar*e about t*t undoing it.

 

Did you watch the video, DD?

[Tezcatlipoca]

I am unlikely to father a child (!) but I know I'd never corrupt a child's brain with nonsense.

 

But that question is kinda the point of this thread, isn't it?

There are a great many people who absolutely and wholly believe in God(s), and for whom the idea of anyone teaching a child to reject religious belief systems is in itself to corrupt a child's brain with nonsense.

 

But then, as Richard Dawkins (himself a supporter of the campaign) asks: "You wouldn't label a child as a Marxist child or a Capitalist child, so why label them a Christian child or Islamic child?"

[Thailand]

Dear Uncle Tezzo - you can be sure that I understand the thread title and nearly hit a nerve with it yesterday. I am biding my time with inference atm.

 

I hope you know that I know there is never any excuse for it! Preaching to a child, who cannot reason the alternative, makes me want to puke up. Those that justify it are also suffering by it.

 

I love Dawkins, too - it's just Fry is my favourite and I wish he would chirp up more often. I've seen Hitchens do great work - but sometimes he's goes too deep and I have no idea what he is banging on about!! That American chap is twisted. I think he's called Hannity.

 

I'm afraid that people who suffer religion (and I also believe that Buddism is a lesser evil) have no problem in 'forcing religion on the young'. They'll defend that right to indoctrinate as well. Pure vile bile.

[madasamuppet]

I was baptised a catholic and had to spend my sat mornings at chapel doing catichism (sp) when all my friends were watching swap shop had to go mass every sunday and even at that young age I resented everything about it. I have never baptised my three kids to any religion they will make their own minds up, we only go to church when there is a funeral. They are taught about all various religions etc in school through RE and modern studies. Saying all that I have sent my youngest to the local catholic school nursery and hopefully he will find a place at the school when the time comes only because they have a very good reputation they are not taught by nuns and there are no daily prayers. If anything they only have to bless themselves at the start of each school day. My kids will choose their own path if any when they are ready, I am more a spiritualist now and reckon all religion and churchs are just big business and a great big con.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Madasamuppet,

 

When I was at school (and even now) I felt so sorry for children who have to go to school at weekends for 'religion'. I'm not surprised you felt resentful. It is a lot better if it is part of your school day as a lesson. Like you I had to learn the catechism by rote. I went to a friend's house at the weekend and her son has just started the 'course' for his first Holy Communion. What they get now is an activity book - pictures to colour, find the word in the grid, and so on. I was astonished. Much more fun than we had obviously.

 

Some churches are all about money and a great big con. I agree with you. I've also seen one of my priest friends, who doesn't make big money, work most of the night at the hospital, followed by three funerals back-to-back because the local crematorium was 'packing them in'. He was very distressed because he felt he had failed the families by not spending time with them.

 

Thailand,

 

to a certain extent I agree with you. Religion should have no relevance to good or bad people. Unfortunately it is often used as an excuse by bad people to justify their actions.

 

A good point of religion is that most of them (at non-nutty or fanatical level) do teach us about right and wrong. They also teach us about the consequences of our actions. It is quite clear that there are now huge numbers of people, who have been educated without religion - or morals. "Thou Shall Not Kill" is actually a pretty good guideline, but teenagers are killing each other and clearly never even think about it. "Thou Shall Not Steal" isn't a bad guideline either.

 

The poor lady who was killed in Wigan might be alive today if the man who thought nothing of stealing her car and running her over with it had been brought up with some morals. Thankfully most of us do know the difference between right and wrong, but clearly there are thousands of people who just wouldn't understand it at all.

 

A Spanish friend of mine says that they have violence in Spain, and guns, but very few sexual crimes against children (and I don't believe they are being hidden as they have been here to anything like the same extent, although they will exist, as everywhere else). He is Catholic, and gay, and explains that most of the population in Spain (and even more so in Italy) believe in God, and therefore that they will be punished for their sins, so they tend to think twice about crimes against children, and the average person (not in a gang) will think twice about shooting people too. He's a journalist - he has come across the Spanish sleazy side too.

 

Like you, I choose my friends because they are nice people, and they are quite a mix.

 

Lots of gay people father children. You never know .....

 

Haven't watched the video yet but I will.

 

Tez,

 

What concerns me a bit is that there is a suggestion from some people that anyone who follows a religion and has children is likely to be indoctrinating them. I am a bit lazy about it. My mum was a bit lazy about it too. At five I was asked by the nuns if I went to church every Sunday and replied quite truthfully that we didn't. :eek: My mum was called up to explain herself, and I think we did go every Sunday for a bit after that.

 

When I was 14 my mum wrote to say I wouldn't be in one day - that was all. They asked me why not and I said I had been a bridesmaid. They weren't too happy with that as an excuse, but equally they weren't that bothered for too long either.

 

I do agree, we shouldn't label children, which is why I get very, very concerned about Muslim girl children, as young as three, going around wearing hijabs and long trousers in Summer when their brothers are in t-shirts and shorts. Their dress is labelling them as an "Islamic" child, when they should just be children. If some bloke gets aroused by the sight of a small girl of four in shorts and a t-shirt he really is dangerous.

 

I could repeat something told to me by a teenage Muslim girl, but I'll get shot down in flames and accused of God-knows-what if I do, so will keep quiet.

 

I don't in any way pressurise my child about religion. She'll work it out for herself when she is quite a lot older - just as I did.

[Thailand]

Well of course you haven't watched the video, media link even - because you refuse to do so! I understand that - I can't be bothered either (acknowledging your point, that is)

 

You should watch it however, because it is utterly fair... not dismissive - FAIR.

 

Yes bad people justify their actions, and some people are blinded by it.

 

They also teach us about the consequences of our actions

 

Go on!!

 

I don't think you understand what you are saying.

 

I believe you are a sufferer. I don't know, maybe the Spanish lady in the vid would agree with you. I admit I'm confused about it....though I know I hate it.

 

Gotta love the guideline bit...... the OFT would agree

[Desperate Daniella]

Hang on. I said I would watch it and I will. Why do you think I wouldn't be bothered? It was half past midnight when I posted last night, I have been out all day, and have to prepare for something just a bit vital tomorrow. I'm very interested to watch it.

 

I'm very sorry if I have upset you.

 

I agree with you about the guideline bit. I was thinking of personal robbery - there weren't any banks when the 10 commandments were laid down - if you believe they were, of course. That's a very good point though - that commandment could have been referring also to the moneylenders around then. Just goes to show nothing has changed.

 

I honestly don't feel that I have suffered (or am suffering) because I am a catholic.

[Thailand]

I apologise to you, DD. I'm just insanely mad about the subject. I missed it. The 10 commandments are nice - just they are are moral points that are likely true without the need for religion. Guffaw. Laid down by whom?!!!

 

Delia Smith?

[Thailand]

Money changers will always exist. No-one 'laid down' anything - it's total rubbish you see!!

[Desperate Daniella]

I know Delia has been around for a bit, but she's not THAT old.

 

Okay, the Bible is just a collection of stories - some will be true, and others not, exaggerated, and/or added to with time. But, someone, somewhere (if you don't believe in religion), decided that it was wrong to kill, steal, sleep with a "neighbour's wife", and so on, and (certainly in the Western World), we based our behaviour on these, and really those three, at least, are quite practical.

[Thailand]

Yeah - she's an old biddy!

 

The bible, or bibble as I like to call it, does have value - it's just boring. Of course we don't need it to have a sense of moral obligation. Exagerated? understatement my love (and I dare not call you honey!) Don't you see that moral code need not be applied -no need for religion, it bullsh*t. If we need moral code - we do NOT need religion to effect it.

 

I'm a good person (lol, if you've forgiven me) but I don't need any sordid hate-filled religion!!

 

Now I'm going to show you the way (the fun bit) It's

.....

 

Gotta log in to laugh though!!

[Desperate Daniella]

Good Lord, have you read it all? I'm only just remembering some of it.

 

I agree. We don't need it to have a sense of moral obligation. I was just wondering where these ideas of moral obligation came from.

 

You can call me Honey!! (You are not being patronising, and neither am I )

 

I'm sure you're a good person. I try to be too!!

 

I'll try to log on and see the video tomorrow - definitely by the weekend. Have to eat now and have to meet counsel in the morning, and praying (OMG if I dare say that ) that there won't be snow in the morning.

 

DDx

[Thailand]

Yeah - the snow sucks. Can't wait for you to watch the video (and note the great fun that is the exit poll).

[Thailand]

But that question is kinda the point of this thread, isn't it?

There are a great many people who absolutely and wholly believe in God(s), and for whom the idea of anyone teaching a child to reject religious belief systems is in itself to corrupt a child's brain with nonsense.

 

But then, as Richard Dawkins (himself a supporter of the campaign) asks: "You wouldn't label a child as a Marxist child or a Capitalist child, so why label them a Christian child or Islamic child?"

 

Indeed, this is a timely link....just saw it on the tev. Tebbit has some funny ideas as to why it is ok and labels Dawkins' point as 'trivialty'.

 

BBC News - Professor Richard Dawkins on labelling children

 

I'm so glad he isn't frustrated by the issue, like me, and just spits it out in a reasoned, intelligent way!

 

Can't seem to find the link for the chat afterwards, but it'll show up at some point.

[Thailand]

And just for fun, you need to watch this dude!

 

 

I don't think I've ever seen anything that funny and pointless. Even believers might dismiss him.