Credit agreement requests, no agreements received...what do I do now?

[dmb248]

Hello all.

 

I made requests under the CCA 1974 for credit agreements on Oct 16th, the 12+2 days have elapsed, here are the responses:

 

NATWEST: LOAN: I recieved a 'generated' letter (apparently) saying information was enclosed. Nothing with letter. I have just called them and this was the response: 'Your credit agreement has been ordered from your branch, that is where it will be and that can take 40 days!) Now I know that they do not have any agreement as they admitted it in correspondance for a Subject access data request! - a company that did informed me that they didn't have one!

 

NATWEST: CREDIT CARD: They tell me that my request contains some 'misconceptions' about my entitlement to information because....quote 'AS YOU ARE AWARE THE ACCOUNT HAS BEEN FULLY REPAID, AND THEREFORE, THERE IS NO ACTIVE AGREEMENT BETWEEN NATWEST CREDIT CARDS ANDY YOU REGARDS TO THE ABOVE ACCOUNT' - which is strange because I pay them a monthly amount under a debt management scheme and they send me monthly statements!!!

 

HSBC: LOAN: No response

 

BENEFICIAL FINANCE: SECURED LOAN: Acknowlage receipt of my letter claiming it was made under the following basis THE PRE-ACTION DISCLOSURE RULES SET OUT IN r31.16 CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES 1999? and that they aim to respond to such requests in 15 working days from the reciept of the letter.

 

Advice as to what do I do now with regard the above individual cases would be very much appreciated.

[cerberusalert]

Thread moved to General Debt Forum

[silverfox1961]

Hi,

See the additions in red

 

Hello all.

 

I made requests under the CCA 1974 for credit agreements on Oct 16th, the 12+2 days have elapsed, here are the responses:

 

NATWEST: LOAN: I recieved a 'generated' letter (apparently) saying information was enclosed. Nothing with letter. I have just called them and this was the response: 'Your credit agreement has been ordered from your branch, that is where it will be and that can take 40 days!) Now I know that they do not have any agreement as they admitted it in correspondance for a Subject access data request! - a company that did informed me that they didn't have one!

 

If the required 12+2 days has elapsed then you could send them the account in dispute letter

 

NATWEST: CREDIT CARD: They tell me that my request contains some 'misconceptions' about my entitlement to information because....quote 'AS YOU ARE AWARE THE ACCOUNT HAS BEEN FULLY REPAID, AND THEREFORE, THERE IS NO ACTIVE AGREEMENT BETWEEN NATWEST CREDIT CARDS ANDY YOU REGARDS TO THE ABOVE ACCOUNT' - which is strange because I pay them a monthly amount under a debt management scheme and they send me monthly statements!!!

 

Utter twaddle. They may have terminated the account but they still have a responsibility to supply the agreement. They probably don't understand thier own systems

 

HSBC: LOAN: No response

A/C in dispute letter

BENEFICIAL FINANCE: SECURED LOAN: Acknowlage receipt of my letter claiming it was made under the following basis THE PRE-ACTION DISCLOSURE RULES SET OUT IN r31.16 CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES 1999? and that they aim to respond to such requests in 15 working days from the reciept of the letter.

 

You make a CCA request and they respond under CPR 31.16:confused:

These muppets need a few lessons in the law then. Give them the required 12+2 days then fire off the A/C in dispute letter

 

Advice as to what do I do now with regard the above individual cases would be very much appreciated.

 

Make sure that you no longer call them, They can easily deny what has been said unless you can record them.

Do everything in writing, keep copies of all letters sent and keep copies of postage receipts

 

 

fox

[dmb248]

Thanks Silverfox

 

To clarify my underdtanding, do I stop payments to these creditors when I send an account in dispute letter, is their a template on this site?

[cerberusalert]

You are legally entitled to withold payment whilst the a/c is in default.

[Sparkling Diamond]

Putting an account in dispute which you pay through a DMP may not go down to well with the DMP Company some of companies want to stop dealing with you.

 

SD

[exasperated]

Putting an account in dispute which you pay through a DMP may not go down to well with the DMP Company some of companies want to stop dealing with you.

 

SD

 

True companies like the CCCS will not like it at all as SD as said, however the fact is as mentioned you are entitiled to withold payment whilst the account is in dispute.

You have the option of informing the DMP comany that with third party help you have made a separate arrangement with these particular creditors and remove them from your DMP. I would not advise you to do this until you have received back the details from your SAR request to be 100% sure.

Although I would not inform the DMP who or what the third party help is you can justify this to yourself as the third party help being 'CAG' and the fact that until they provide you with documentation contrary to its in dispute state you are entitled withhold payment as governed by English law. Fact.

Exasp

[dmb248]

Thank you guys your help and advice is very much appreciated. Has anyone got a template or copy of an 'Account in dispute letter'

 

dmb

[dmb248]

Just found the letter templates! - but have a question regarding one of my creditors HSBC I have just checked my records and the debt was first being delt with by METROPOLITAN FINANCE and now CL FINANCE. Does that mean that the HSBC have sold the debt and Should I have sent CCA requests to them?

 

dmb

[silverfox1961]

Morning,

I would say that if CL haven't contacted you yet, I would continue the Metropolitan route for now

[MilkTrayMan]

Whatever action with your current DMP +/or Creditors U choose to do, just be mindful of the recent High Court info referred to in the following Post dmb248...

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/222855-confused-over-cca-statute.html#post2553470

 

 

[dmb248]

Thanks Milk Tray Man, just read the article and a number of posts...Totally confused! - if I put the accounts in dispute the lenders WILL default me? if so can this be removed even if they have no agreement? and what about the secured loan which has a charge on my property even though all the documentation and correspondance has the WRONG address on it?

[dmb248]

Hi Silverfox

 

The debt is with a DMC and from day one the debt was with Metropolitan now CL Finance, HSBC have never had any correspondance with me, however it is to the HSBC quoting the account number that I have sent the CCA request and heard nothing....should it have gone to whoever is being paid monthly (CL Finance) who, if I am understanding correctly should have the original agreement if it was 'sold' to them?

 

dmb

[silverfox1961]

Ah gotcha.

 

It shouldn't make much difference anyway as CL wouldn't have had the agreement anyway. They would have to go to the OC to get it.

I would contact CL and tell them that as the OC has failed to produce, the account is in dispute

[exasperated]

Whatever action with your current DMP +/or Creditors U choose to do, just be mindful of the recent High Court info referred to in the following Post dmb248...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/222855-confused-over-cca-statute.html#post2553470

 

 

Hi MM,

A fellow cagger BB was thwarted with this Mcguffick case but as I pointed out as did others the facts relied on are only relevant if the creditor has an enforceable agreement.

Here is the link in case you would like to read it and maybe you could offer BB some advice (its post 140 onwards which is relevant)

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/223570-cabot-financial-dealing-cabot-post2537169.html#post2537169

[dmb248]

Hello all

 

Can anyone clarify a couple of points....As no lender has provided me with Original Agreements, infact no agreements at all! in the specified time under the CCA I can now put the accounts into dispute and request:

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

If they then provide me with a signed agreement which is enforcable which the McGuffin case relied upon do I then start paying my monthly installments again?

 

Also with regard my Secured Loan with Beneficial Finance, doesn't the fact that they have a charge on the property indicate that an agreement is in place even though they havn't suppled a credit agreement? could they still not default me on that basis and begin recovery preccedings?

 

dmb

Edited November 5, 2009 by dmb248

[MilkTrayMan]

Tis confusing I know dmb248,

 

The recent High Court ruling would appear to turn many thing on it's head + allow the Creditor to do what they pleased.

 

The problem arises in that even if an alleged debt becomes unenforceable by the non-compliance of the Creditor to produce a properly executed Credit Agreement within the statutory time period, the debt is still deemed to exist under simple Contract Law, albeit unenforceable unless directed otherwise by a Court.

 

There is simply no way of knowing if a Creditor will produce at a later date, an enforceable Credit Agreement, despite them in the meantime having perhaps informed the alleged Debtor that don't have such a document.

 

My take on the High Court hypothise was that cos the debt still technically existed, the processing of data about such alleged debt was deemed NOT to constitute a demand for payment of an unenforceable debt, nor was action to make it enforceable.

 

By all means place any alleged debts in default after 12+2 days from receipt of a CCA 1974 s77/78/79 + stop any payments to the Creditor until such time as they comply.

Just be wary of the consequencies if they later resurface to haunt U though.

It is a matter of judgement for the individual to take + obviously there is NO guarantee that a DCA would ever obtain + reproduce a Credit Agreement, an Original Creditor is far more likely to have one lurking somewhere in the basement + should be viewed slightly more apprehensively if going down the non-compliance route IMHO.

 

That is why I'm suggesting that approaching a DCA for a clarification that the alleged debt has be properly assigned to them may be the 1st port of call, to establish what is the nature of the beast which one may be facing.

 

If law was that simple, there wouldn't be zillions of peeps making their living out of it's interpretation.

It's all down to whoever can argue their case that bit better than their opponents sat next to them, + whether or not the DJ takes on board the weight of any particular caselaw that is brought to their attention.

 

There is NO substitute for good research + preparation...+ hoping that the other side hasn't done their homework too of course.

A saving grace was that it was quite clearly stressed by the High Court judge, that this particular judgement should be regarded as a stand alone one, even so, that's not to say that any DJ wouldn't be swayed by it, if it was brought to their attention + cited by a DCA solicitor in the future.

[MilkTrayMan]

Hi MM,

A fellow cagger BB was thwarted with this Mcguffick case but as I pointed out as did others the facts relied on are only relevant if the creditor has an enforceable agreement.

Here is the link in case you would like to read it and maybe you could offer BB some advice (its post 140 onwards which is relevant)

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/223570-cabot-financial-dealing-cabot-post2537169.html#post2537169

Thank U for bringing this Thread to my attention exasperated.

There are peeps already posting on it that have far more experience + knowledge than me about the mindset of Cabot.

Appeals aren't necessarily my forte though.

 

I recently accompanied a Defendant as a McKenzies Friend who was arguing against the imposition of a Charging Order in County Court.

The DJ was a complete wazzock + I even had to point out to him that the awarding of s69 simple interest was discretionary.

Needless to say, the fact that Nastywest hadn't complied with standard disclosure, as directed to at a previous hearing, didn't seem to matter to him at all.

...Although he WAS persuaded NOT to award the zillions of £££'s costs which they were also seeking when he rubber stamped their application.

[exasperated]

Hi MM,

Have you seen this thread if you haven't it is well worth a read and very relevant to the McGuffick case

Exasp

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/213040-martin-cabot-financial.html

[MilkTrayMan]

Hi MM,

Have you seen this thread if you haven't it is well worth a read and very relevant to the McGuffick case

Exasp

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/213040-martin-cabot-financial.html

Yes exasperated...It was referred to within the previous Thread that U posted a link to.

Although very pertainent, let us try not to hi-jack dmb248's Thread.

 

 

[exasperated]

No disrespect intended..

It was not my intention to Hijack this thread I was merely informing DMB of other threads where this Mcguffick case is being challenged in reponse to your posting. He now has those threads and can read and make his own mind up whether that is relevant.

Exasp

[dmb248]

Can anyone claryfy the points?

[exasperated]

Hi DMB,

If I were you I would start a new thread for each of your debts. The reason I state this is that you are receiving advice regards alot of different issue's from different caggers. The unsecured debt that you have and which you have CCA'd and received no reply should be getting 'the account in dispute' letter from you.

The secured loan on your property deserves a new thread where you will get seperate advice pertainent to it

You will quickly confuse yourself and others by mass loading one thread which is what I did when I originally started posting and I was given the advice I have given you here.

Does that answer your query

Exasp

[dmb248]

Thanks for the advice I will do that Exasp

 

dmb