Been told can't change signing in day :(

[NewSAHD]

Hi, I've been told by the Job Centre, over the 'phone, that I can't change my signing in day

 

No problem, you might think, but it means I'll shortly be taking two young children in with me for much of a morning

 

I'm after any advice, all comments welcome

 

It's a bit late in the evening but hope the following information helps understand my problem

 

BACKGROUND

 

I have been out of work for several months and have been claiming Job Seekers Allowance (contribution based). I'd been working for some years and being out of work is a first for me

 

Fortunately, my wife started full time work last week. She was previously working part time. Unfortunately, my wife's new job pays quite a bit less than my old job

 

Instead of my seeking full time work I am now looking for part time work, as we have three young children, and I am now doing all the household chores. My wife can then concentrate on work and I will be a house husband. Good on her though and we're doing what we can to make it work

 

Our eldest child has just started school and the other two who are now attending preschool a few half days a week too. My wife and I want one of us to be around for the kids as much as we can. She is also able to get in from work hours earlier than I ever could, so it's kind of worked out OK for now

 

We have already canceled the child carer that we used to have to have (no family to help out), as well as other things to save money

 

QUESTIONS

 

The morning I sign on is one of the days when our two youngest are NOT at preschool

 

Never used to be an issue for us, as my wife and I used to juggle her parttime work, with the child carer. We have now cancelled the child carer and my wife is working full time, of course, which is where the problem comes up

 

Having seen others struggle with young kids whilst waiting to sign on each fortnight I've already called the Job Centre to ask if I can sign in on a different day i.e. a day when the children ARE at preschool

 

I've been told that it is not possible to rearrange the day, it's the system, although it has been suggested I speak to a manager when I sign on next week. The children will be with me...

 

Over the months I have turned up early at the Job Centre to sign on and it is not uncommon to still wait 20/30 minutes or more from the signing on time to be seen

 

Didn't initially seem too bad on the face of it to me, but the more I think about the toing and froing for the kids - especially waiting to be seen to sign on - means two young kids will be, er,'struggling' with it all by the time we finish late morning - all just at a time when mum and dad have completely swopped roles too

 

It doesn't seem right to me have two young children (2 1/2 years old) with me when I sign on

- their day will start with my getting up around 7am, which is fine, as it's much later than when I was working,

- so my eldest is at his primary school by @840am, which is fine,

- then travelling in to town, to sign on for 930am, which is starting to push it,

- with my being out of the Job Centre building by around @1015am,

- and being home around late morning/lunchtime. Aghhhhh, that'll be a fun morning out for them...

 

Sorry, rant over

 

Question 1), I suppose, is can I simply insist on changing my sign on day?

 

And, Question 2), am I about to find that my JSA claim is now going to be canceled, now that my wife has found part time work, even though I am looking for part time work now? I've been looking on the JobCentrePlus website, but can't find anything on this

 

It's late and I've been typing this instead of ironing school shirts/polishing shoes, which I will get back to now!

 

Thanks for reading all this, all advice/help/comments welcome

 

Cheers

A new stay at home dad

Edited October 4, 2009 by NewSAHD

[andydd]

Hi, I've been told by the Job Centre, over the 'phone, that I can't change my signing in day

 

No problem, you might think, but it means I'll shortly be taking two young children in with me for much of a morning

 

I'm after any advice, all comments welcome

 

It's a bit late in the evening but hope the following information helps understand my problem

 

BACKGROUND

 

I have been out of work for several months and have been claiming Job Seekers Allowance (contribution based). I'd been working for some years and being out of work is a first for me

 

Fortunately, my wife started full time work last week. She was previously working part time. Unfortunately, my wife's new job pays quite a bit less than my old job

 

Instead of my seeking full time work I am now looking for part time work, as we have three young children, and I am now doing all the household chores. My wife can then concentrate on work and I will be a house husband. Good on her though and we're doing what we can to make it work

 

Our eldest child has just started school and the other two who are now attending preschool a few half days a week too. My wife and I want one of us to be around for the kids as much as we can. She is also able to get in from work hours earlier than I ever could, so it's kind of worked out OK for now

 

We have already canceled the child carer that we used to have to have (no family to help out), as well as other things to save money

 

QUESTIONS

 

The morning I sign on is one of the days when our two youngest are NOT at preschool

 

Never used to be an issue for us, as my wife and I used to juggle her parttime work, with the child carer. We have now cancelled the child carer and my wife is working full time, of course, which is where the problem comes up

 

Having seen others struggle with young kids whilst waiting to sign on each fortnight I've already called the Job Centre to ask if I can sign in on a different day i.e. a day when the children ARE at preschool

 

I've been told that it is not possible to rearrange the day, it's the system, although it has been suggested I speak to a manager when I sign on next week. The children will be with me...

 

Over the months I have turned up early at the Job Centre to sign on and it is not uncommon to still wait 20/30 minutes or more from the signing on time to be seen

 

Didn't initially seem too bad on the face of it to me, but the more I think about the toing and froing for the kids - especially waiting to be seen to sign on - means two young kids will be, er,'struggling' with it all by the time we finish late morning - all just at a time when mum and dad have completely swopped roles too

 

It doesn't seem right to me have two young children (2 1/2 years old) with me when I sign on

- their day will start with my getting up around 7am, which is fine, as it's much later than when I was working,

- so my eldest is at his primary school by @840am, which is fine,

- then travelling in to town, to sign on for 930am, which is starting to push it,

- with my being out of the Job Centre building by around @1015am,

- and being home around late morning/lunchtime. Aghhhhh, that'll be a fun morning out for them...

 

Sorry, rant over

 

Question 1), I suppose, is can I simply insist on changing my sign on day?

 

And, Question 2), am I about to find that my JSA claim is now going to be canceled, now that my wife has found part time work, even though I am looking for part time work now? I've been looking on the JobCentrePlus website, but can't find anything on this

 

It's late and I've been typing this instead of ironing school shirts/polishing shoes, which I will get back to now!

 

Thanks for reading all this, all advice/help/comments welcome

 

Cheers

A new stay at home dad

 

Hi..Im no expert but ill try and help, Ive no idea about changing the sign on day but your request doiesnt seem unreasonable, maybe asking your kids to scream and misbehave might help..hee...personally I find it rather annoying when kids are making so much noise in there but Im sure it cant be helped.

 

As for your second question, if you are getting Contribution Based JSA then that is nothing to do with your partners earnings, this will only be taken into account when Income Based JSA kicks in which starts at 6 months, the only thing that affects CB JSA (if you are eligible) is your savings amount.

 

20-30 mins wait, mine is sometimes 45 mins, I never get there early these days.

 

I've got sudden ad-hoc interview tommorow (despite signing on these Wednesday), I wonder what thats about ?

 

Andy

[NewSAHD]

Andy, cheers for the rapid reply!

 

I'm working hard on keeping the kids in check Wife has done a great job so far, even if say it myself, so I don't want to m/uck it up! Little kids having to wait in a queue is just plain torture for them though. I will try to hold them off from causing chaos in the JobCentre

 

Well, at least for now

 

I did turn up about 15/20 mins early once and was let in - sometimes you get asked by security to wait outside - and seen within 20 mins, so doesn't seem to be any pattern to how long you wait. And it's amazing that some clerks churn through those who are signing on really quickly, whereas there seems to be one or two who just stare at the same piece of paper/computer screen, without seeing anyone. Hmmmm

 

Maybe I should ask about working there. Do you think they have a creche?

 

Good luck with the interview tomorrow too and thanks again

[antone]

You can't insist that your signing on day is changed, no. I can't recall how JSA works these things out, but the best you can do is ask the manager if there is any discretion available.

 

While you are receiving contribution-based JSA, your wife's work and income will not be taken into account, so you should still receive your money provided you continue to meet the conditions of entitlement. Once your JSA © expires, six months after the first day of your claim, you will probably find that you are not entitled to income based JSA since your wife works full time.

[NewSAHD]

Antone, thanks for your quick reply too

 

Will see how it goes with the JobCentre manager this week and post again when I have some news

[antone]

Antone, thanks for your quick reply too

 

Will see how it goes with the JobCentre manager this week and post again when I have some news

 

No problem, hope all goes well. Sorry if this is stating the obvious, but you have looked into Child/Working Tax Credits, yes?

[insyder]

I can't recall how JSA works these things out

 

Now if you claim any main benefit you are individually always paid on the same day , this was brought in to make benefit to benefit transfers easier for budgeting.

 

It is worked out based on your last three digits of the National Insurance Number and therefore Jobcentres now cannot change the day that you sign on.

[Guest wino]

Hi NewSAHD

Just a tip when you have to go to any 'boring grown up places'. take colouring books or something else to keep your children amused.

[antone]

Now if you claim any main benefit you are individually always paid on the same day , this was brought in to make benefit to benefit transfers easier for budgeting.

 

It is worked out based on your last three digits of the National Insurance Number and therefore Jobcentres now cannot change the day that you sign on.

 

Cool, thanks. I work with ESA, and that's how we do it. Just wasn't sure if JSA/IS/IB worked the same way.

[FitzWilliam]

It is worked out based on your last three digits of the National Insurance Number and therefore Jobcentres now cannot change the day that you sign on.

 

Thanks for the info, Insyder. Does this mean your NI number automatically makes you a Monday signer, Tuesday signer, etc?

 

My jobcentre is closed on Wednesdays which suggests to me that there must be some flexibility for moving those with Wednesday signing numbers to another day.

 

I'd like to think that the flexibility the DWP allows for itself could also be extended to jobseekers whose personal arrangements need to be accommodated.

 

I hope, SAHD, that you'll press the jobcentre to change your signing day to help your family arrangements. You'll see their new Customer Charter on one of the walls. It says they take complaints seriously and use your feedback to improve their services.

 

My view about promises like this is that they should be honoured. I think your request is entirely reasonable and that the jobcentre should look for a way to change your signing day.

 

Quite apart from anything else, a jobcentre is not a very suitable place for children. My jobcentre is usually fairly quiet, but I've heard arguments and swearing, seen staff have three bust ups with their security guard, and twice seen the police called to arrest people.

 

Anyway, I hope they'll accommodate your needs and I'm interested to learn the outcome. Good luck!

[antone]

Fitzwilliam, yes. You NI number is used to work out your payday, rather than your signing day, but the effect is the same. Since Insyder tells me that JSA works the same way as ESA:

 

NI number ends 0-19 - Monday payday

NI number ends 20-39 - Tuesday payday

 

and so on. Since customers are paid fortnightly, the week in which they are paid is determined by whether the last two digits are odd or even. IIRC, your signing day will be 3 working days before payday, but since the customers I deal with don't sign on, don't quote me on that. No Jobcentre I work with closes on any weekday, so I don't know how that would be dealt with.

 

As to flexibility, I can understand peoples' frustrations. I would imagine (and I speak here as a private citizen, not an employee of JCP) that the shear number of customers makes it difficult to accommodate individual requirements.

[FitzWilliam]

Thanks Antone

 

It was very helpful information. My NI number ends with 77 and my friend's with 83, so that explains why we sign on a Thursday and Friday, and always on the same week.

 

I'm wondering now what happens to all the people with Wednesday numbers at my jobcentre. I guess they must be distributed across the other days of the week.

 

That's what makes me think JCP could also move SAHD's signing day. They allow flexibility to accommodate their own needs for when people sign, and they should allow flexibility to accommodate his needs as well.

 

I guess SAHD could put the argument that he is not a number, he is a free man. But it's a bit of a cliche ...

 

* * *

 

My jobcentre is one of three linked jobcentres that all close on a different weekday. On the closed days they shuffle the staff off to the other two offices.

[Jan4a]

Don't understand this reasoning because I used to sign on on Thursdays, but then when I temped and did a rapid reclaim I was moved to Tuesdays.

 

Also, my JC is not only open 5 days but I think they are also shortly to open on Saturdays too.

[antone]

Don't understand this reasoning because I used to sign on on Thursdays, but then when I temped and did a rapid reclaim I was moved to Tuesdays.

 

Also, my JC is not only open 5 days but I think they are also shortly to open on Saturdays too.

 

These rules have been changing recently, so that might explain why your signing day changed.

 

There have been a good number of changes to things like Jobcentre and telephone service opening hours recently. I presume this is a result of the increase in the number of people claiming various benefits. As far as I can tell, most such changes are local and are (at least in theory) intended to reflect local demand.

[Jan4a]

These rules have been changing recently, so that might explain why your signing day changed.

 

Just remembered as well, when I rang Newcastle to do the rapid reclaim they gave me an appointment for the same day but when I got there the lady at the JC said they hadn't had time to get anything ready for me so she went off somewhere to get me a signing date. Maybe that was why.

[NewSAHD]

A note of thanks to ALL who have posted here.

 

I've been reading through the various comments this evening and the feedback has been really helpful.

 

Although it's been a long day today, it's been a good day, if only because the kids were great - and they got to see Granddad too today, as his office is a 15 minute walk from the JobCentre! Made the day longer still, but was worth it.

 

So, I went to the JobCentre this morning with the twins. Waited 45 minutes before an older Security Guard came across and said he'd noticed I'd been waiting awhile and would sort it out A few minutes later I was seen and I was back out of the door in just under an hour.

 

It's late now, but from memory hope the following helps:

 

1. I'm on contribution based JSA, so my wife's new job has no impact, yet, on my claim.

 

2. If I work 16 hours, or more, the claim is terminated.

 

3. If I work less than 16 hours, but earn more than £5 per hour, the claim is reduced proportionally. I think...

 

4. As has been said elsewhere by Insyder (many thanks too) the DAY of signing IS determined by the NI Insurance Number. I've been told by the JobCentre today that the day can't be changed.

 

5. The TIME of signing CAN sometimes be changed though, to help out with childcare arrangements, but it depends on what free slots become available.

 

This last bit came from an Office Manager (?) at the JobCentre, who had overheard my conversation with the Assessor and - without prompting - collected a signing rota (?). She very kindly offered alternate times for me to come in

 

Unfortunately, they were at times such as 14:45. As my eldest finishes school at 15:00, there was no joy with that... my current sign in is much earlier in the morning, so will stick with that for now, so long as there are not too many 45 minute waits!

 

So, as this post is getting a bit longer than expected:

 

 

Antone - I saw one of your posts elsewhere ( http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/benefits-tax-credits-minimum/223102-whats-like-work-job-2.html#post2469980 ) and I really have to say how helpful the JobCentre staff were in the end today. I mention this as, yes, there was a "customer" (is that the right word, as he was a right royal pain in the... queue... ) mouthing off to a staff member. Even if I had not had two young children with me, he would still have been a pain. Ain't the UK great sometimes.

 

Wino - hi, didn't see your message until this evening, but thanks too. We went in armed with books, a toy each, snacks, drinks, and a packed lunch! Colouring books could be a good idea for them, although on the other hand they are at the age where a lot of pen/ink ends up on arms/faces/etc

 

FitzWilliam - again, hi, and, again, didn't see your message about the Customer Charter. Bearing in mind I was waiting 45 minutes today, with two young children, and with a small minority of idiots causing a nuisance, I will bear this in mind and look in to it. On the other hand, everyone else, such as staff, were very pleasant in the end. Plus, I'm keen to find some part-time work, ideally when the children are at preschool and so on, so that I don't need to sign on for much longer.

 

Andy - last, but not least, what happened with the sudden ad-hoc interview? Hope it was not too serious

 

 

Finally, thanks again to those who have posted messages here, to the Security Guard, and to the Office Manager (?) at the JobCentre for making all this a little easier - even if they won't be reading this and even if it has not been quite the news I wanted

 

Thanks all

Edited October 7, 2009 by NewSAHD

[insyder]

Thanks for the info, Insyder. Does this mean your NI number automatically makes you a Monday signer, Tuesday signer, etc?

 

My jobcentre is closed on Wednesdays which suggests to me that there must be some flexibility for moving those with Wednesday signing numbers to another day.

 

If your jobcentre doesn't open on Wednesdays then the payday stays as a Wednesday but the signing day would have to be moved to one of the days after the Wednesday. This means that when you sign on, say, Thursday it would pay you up to the Wednesday without you needing to be seen on the day.

 

77 means you would be a Thursday so wouldn't apply to you.

 

antone is right though, it is essentially the payday not the signing day that is governed by the national insurance number. Most times this is the same.

 

I believe that the national insurance number changes was national but phased in over different areas.

[FitzWilliam]

Don't understand this reasoning because I used to sign on on Thursdays, but then when I temped and did a rapid reclaim I was moved to Tuesdays.

 

Jan, what are the last two digits on your NI number?

 

I sign on Thursdays with a Thursday number but am sure that in the past I've had a different signing day. I'm guessing that you have a Tuesday number hence moving you to Tuesdays.

 

Excuse my nerdy interest in these numbers. It might help make things clearer.

[FitzWilliam]

So, I went to the JobCentre this morning with the twins. Waited 45 minutes before an older Security Guard came across and said he'd noticed I'd been waiting awhile and would sort it out A few minutes later I was seen and I was back out of the door in just under an hour.

 

Forty five minutes is way too long to be kept waiting.

 

The security guard is supposed to welcome you on arrival, take your ES40 and invite you to take a seat until you're called for signing. In DWPspeak he should provide 'a positive initial reception to customers' and 'directional guidance'.

 

Jobcentres also expect their security guards to 'assist those with disabilities, elderly or infirm people, or those in any difficulty.' That applies to you with two young children in tow.

 

The guidance for security guards says they should 'treat people as you would expect to be treated'. I'm sure the security guard would not expect to be ignored for 45 minutes in a jobcentre if he were unemployed.

 

Very clearly, that security guard is not doing his job properly.

 

You got a very poor level of service. This happens in jobcentres because they are not businesses like a bank or a shop. They have no vested interest in giving good service because they know you can't walk out and take your custom elsewhere.

 

The longest wait I can remember for signing was 25 minutes. I didn't mind because it was a one-off. Normally I expect to wait about 2-15 minutes which I find tolerable.

 

References:

 

http://www.parliament.uk/deposits/depositedpapers/2008/DEP2008-2314.doc

 

http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd5/rports2005-2006/rrep236.pdf

 

Jobcentre 'Customer Charter':

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/customer-charter-dwp.pdf

[andydd]

Andy - last, but not least, what happened with the sudden ad-hoc interview? Hope it was not too serious

 

 

Finally, thanks again to those who have posted messages here, to the Security Guard, and to the Office Manager (?) at the JobCentre for making all this a little easier - even if they won't be reading this and even if it has not been quite the news I wanted

 

Thanks all

 

Hiya.

 

The interview was on monday it was as i suspected to do with a job they showed me that I didnt apply for, this was because Im after an IT support job, it's what I've done for the last 6 years and therefore where I consider my best chances for future employment lie, the job they refered to was an unrelated admin job, apart from mentioning the phrase 'It Literate' it was totally unsuitable.

 

So ive had to fill in a lil form explaining why i failed to take up this 'Offer Of employment/training opportunity' (as they put it), I then typed out a A4 sheet explaining why I didnt apply, the type of job I was after, also pointing out that it was in no way a 'offer of employment', it was in fact a job to apply for, full stop.

 

I took this opportunity to have a bit of a moan about the Job Centre in general..ha..part of the problem lay in my 2nd and 3rd job choices, these were kept as the sanme as when i signed on before 6 years ago and the jobs that they throw up on their system are not really suitable. I did point out to the guy that the whole job finding process at the job centre is a mess and is in no way suitable for any sort of proffesional, for example there is no easy way to search for London/City jobs despite the fact that here in the south east, a very large percentage of the workforce commute to London every day and that is where I expect to find employment.

 

Anyway, hopefully it wont affect my money, im sure my letter put across my point and for good measure I stapled about 20 pages of jobs Ive applied for other the last few weeks to hammer my point home.

 

I just despair of the job centre, not particually the staff, its just the whole system is designed to try and catch you out and prove you have not been job seeking, I wish they would instead put their effort and money into actually helping people find employment.

 

Andy

[FitzWilliam]

The interview was on monday it was as i suspected to do with a job they showed me that I didnt apply for ...

 

So ive had to fill in a lil form explaining why i failed to take up this 'Offer Of employment/training opportunity' ...

 

Did they print out the details of the job on a 'Client Copy' and give it to you? Or did you decline to apply without them printing a 'Client Copy'?

 

If the former, it's likely to be more problematic. :-|

[darthjack]

I have to sign on 20 Miles away. I asked to sign a hour earlier at 3 pm instead of 4 pm. 1, so I can give my son a lift back from school ( he has been banned from the bus) and 2, a Maths course I joined starts at 6 pm. I also work voluntary on a wednesday morning for a few hours.

Not a chance, I was told to give up my voluntary work ,if it was getting in the way and i I had plenty of time to get back for the start of my Maths course.

No wonder the Job Centre gets a bad name. (So helpful)

Edited October 7, 2009 by darthjack

[andydd]

Did they print out the details of the job on a 'Client Copy' and give it to you? Or did you decline to apply without them printing a 'Client Copy'?

 

If the former, it's likely to be more problematic. :-|

 

The former I think but at the time it wasnt made clear that failing to apply would involve all sorts of further hassle, this was just a job that the 3 months interview guy handed me, there was no talk of 'you must apply' for this we were just chatting generally about stuff, at my interview monday it was agreed that my 2 and 3rd choice jobs wern't really suitable for me so these were changed.

 

Having re-read the job description its totally unsuitable and would of been a waste of my and their time applying as Im sure there would of been many more qualified/experienced applicants, BUT I'm well aware that common sense doesnt enter into it....they all appear to work on a 'computer says no' attitude.

 

I attached about 20 jobs applications to my form I handed in today so I shall be very ****ed off if they take this further and decide that I'm somehow breaking my JSA agreement, I just wish to apply for jobs that

 

a) I want to do

b) I'm experienced in

c) I'm qualified in

d) I'm most likely to get

 

The job they handed me didnt fit any of those but trying to explain that my time would be better spent appling to jobs that fulfil the above citeria as opposed to ones that don't is rather hard.

 

Andy

[FitzWilliam]

Hi Andy,

 

It might be a problem because they gave you the job and you didn't apply. But it sounds like you've sent a good defence and shown that you've applied for plenty of jobs that are suitable for you.

 

To me that shows you are fulfilling your jobsearch requirements. I'm not sure how the DWP will judge it though.

 

My own experience of these 'doubt has arisen' letters is pretty much limited to cases where my applications got lost or misfiled, but I had the jobsearch notes, copies of emails etc to prove I had applied.

 

Perhaps someone will have experience of a case like yours to give a better indication of the likely outcome.

 

I hope it goes okay.

[darthjack]

I know how you feel andydd. I've been caring for my Father for the last 10 years,until he passed away in February. He died on a Saturday, so i phoned the JC on the Tuesday (Took nearly an hour)to canel his benefits and to change mine from Carers allowance to JSA. I was then asked why I hadn't told them on the Monday, and I would lose a days benefit( I was in bits by then). They made me an apointment at the "Local" JC on the Thursday which happens to be 18 miles away, after waiting for nearly an hour, I was called to my personal advser and went through everything again that I told them on the Phone( another 45 mins). She then walks away and comes back with another woman and I was told my carers allowance runs on for another 2 months and I dont have to claim JSA until then. That was my first experience of the JC.

I had no qualifications when I left school, hence the English & Maths courses I doing at the moment( A grade C GCSE if I pass). I studied part time and Gained level 2 City & Guilds in all Microsoft Office apps, when my father was alive. That is the work I am looking for. Every signing day I am given jobs I must apply for, even if i'm not qualified for. I get phoned by "The matching team" to apply for jobs i'm not qualified for, and told " I'm warning you if you don't apply for this job your job seekers may be affected".

I even applied for a job at the JC, They never bothered to contact me to say "Thanks but no thanks". Don't think I could have worked there, you need to be a Special type of person to work there.

My 6 months interview, well that's another story!!!!!