@natwest_help NatWest Iressponsible lending - HELP PLEASE new develpements

[ieuanMr]

Drafted a CCA today after reading consumer documents OFT Guidelines July 2009 as suggested by Elsa, tremendously powerful document and information, it seems Ford XXXXXXXXX have run roughshod over us, breaking the guidlines of:

1. transparancy

2. fairness

3. curtosy

in their dealings with us, we ended up being spoken down to, £400.00 added to the price and no air conditioning. I was in a pickle trying to formulate a letter of complaint but this guidline Elsa provided firmed up my presentation. This is the letter I plan to send on Friday with the £1.00 fee. It should sharpen their focus on our telephone complaint of a month ago. The telephone replies and letter from Ford XXXXXXXXX was dismissive and barely polite they offered to take the car back and give us £50.00 which we have rejected. I understand any legal action will be agaisnt the owners of the dept which will be Santander Consumer Finance. I used the form for Hire purchase agreement.

 

 

 

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxx

Edited as I think it breaches the rules of this forum

 

Yours Faithfully

 

XXXXXXXXXX (Mr)

 

Tomorrow I will consider CCA's for some complaints regarding charges, that should allow us to apply for charges on Advantage Gold and Credit cards to be placed intheir system within 12 days.

 

I have three main areas of concern now, these are:

1. Credit card and account charges (unfair)

2. PPI 10 fixed sum up from £6000.00 on a fixed sum loan and ii) monthly payment PPI on mortgage

3. Unfair lending or careless lending. Reading the OFT guidelines of July 2009 show clearly some rules were breached but how to I relate these to contracts signed in 2006 and 2007.

From my notes a statement stands out from the OFT doucment:

1. OFT969 Unsustainable levels of borrowings leading to consequential prolem Indebtedness.

2.

2.2 Fully consider the suitability of credit products based on the borrowers needs and taking account his circumstances.

 

It goes on and on and on the rules they have broken. My difficulty is when do thes eguidleines apply or are they something that should have been in place in 2006 and 2007 when he increased his borrowing. the debts were clearly not safe as two years after he wa sin exactly the same situation. Selling his house after 15 yeras work and apying all these bills would leave him £3000.00 pocket, slightly more than his original deposit.

 

Ieuan

Edited October 17, 2009 by ieuanMr

[ieuanMr]

Amazingly the letter to Ford worked today and they have asked if they can see us in person to discuss, I don't think they are willing to move on their position but they assure me they will think it through again and I wonder if we did go to court if it would look as if we were willing to discuss fully before court action. I am tempted to go and chat as long as there is no pressure on us we maintian that they stuck £400.00 on the bill and ommitted the air conditioning delibrately.

I am now realising the power in those template letters to make companies sit up and take notice of complaints from the ordinary consumer. This guy was always quite rude to me on the telephone and said that he had checked with OTF and that they supported him in offering to cancel the contract. But as I told him we do have a contract and it is enforecable in law, why would we cancel it and settle for a £50.00 handout.

I tried to make a donation today but for some reason failed completly.

Ieuan

[ieuanMr]

I want to make a donation but can't seem to do it, I don't know why not.

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi

Well done so far.

My gut reaction to a face to face meeting is no way. It's up to you, but I'd strictly keep everything in writing as they can get away with anything in a face to face conversation, then renage on it..unless it's written. They can also panic you into making decisions by being untruthful about consequences of not complying. Again, they would not be able to do this (without repercussions) in writing.

You need time to consider your responses, and to seek advice on them on here or elsewhere before replying. Face to face you'll be put on the spot.

But..its up to you!

However, we don't want to antagonise them, so maybe send a polite letter saying thankyou for the offer but in view of the complexity of the situation you feel that it is better to sort out the matter in writing in order maintain accurate records of any dealings, and to allow you to time to consider options and obtain further legal advice if necessary.

 

Re the donation..how nice of you

Near the top of each page there's a button labelled "please donate to help keep this site alive" ..this should take you to a secure Paypal page (if you don't use paypal you can still just use a credit/debit card)

If all else fails you could try clicking the red triangle on the left..you'll get a text box where you can send a message directly to the site team asking about donation methods.Don't forget to put your user name.

 

Elsa xx

[ieuanMr]

I used the donate botton about 10 times and it always gives me a reason for not proceeding and it is very time consuming. I cant' see any other way to pay.

Yes, good advice Elsa we have decided not to meet with them, thank you.

 

I will send the letter it cannot do any harm.

 

regards

Ieuan

Edited October 7, 2009 by ieuanMr

[ieuanMr]

I sent out the following letter to Ford XXXXXXXXXX, I don't suppose they will make an offer judging by the manager's telephone remarks yesterday but he does seem to like inviting us to meetings with coffee, in view of his arrogance on past occasions it a bit like being invited into a lion's den. I supose now my next move is to ask for CCA with Ford and Santander at the end of this week and then press on with planning a court action with Santander, the owner of the debt. In view of the OFT guidelines already given I see three areas of breach of those guidlines and I suppose base don current case law we should have the whole debt classed as 'unenforcable' by a reasonable judge in a county court.

We never made Ford XXXXXXXXX breach thsoe OFT gauidlines and we have been reaonable throughout and only asking for the:

1. £400.00 that was added to their verbal quote

2. Air conditioning as per their telephone sales pitch

 

It's not our fault they chose not to display or were ignorant that they should show transparancy throughout the negotiations. Neither are we deficient because they did not offer the full contract terms at the earliest opportunity as specified by the guidelines. And neither are we responsible for their agressive attitude when we asked why they had added £400.00 to the price stated, they broke the guidelines that the consumer should be treated respectfully and with forebearance. It was only after we sent in details of our legal complaint that the manager's attitude changed completely and he became quiet creepy with his solictations. Now it seems he wants to telephone us every day.

 

Letter:

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.

Complaints Department

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

7th October 2009

Dear Sirs

Re Authorisation No. xxxxxxxx and Our Letter of complaint of the 8th September 2009 your reply of the 10th September 2009.

Further to our telephone in response to our letter of the 3rd October in which xxxxxxxxxxxx has offered to meet me and review the transaction in a new light. I am working shifts at the moment and we are extremely busy at work, so I will have to turn down your offer to meet and discuss. However, should you carry out your promise and review the matter in a new light and come up with a proposal I would be pleased to consider it rather than go through the process of law.

In view of my working shifts and having to have messages relayed to me by my father I would prefer all communication in future to be by mail. I have requested this several week ago and you assured me that you would honour my reasonable request. My mother in particular finds this constant telephoning a nuisance and she is becoming stressed about it. Could you kindly pass this letter to the directors of your company and ask them if they could kindly ask xxxxxxxxxxxx not to telephone xxxx xxxxxx again.

Thanking you in anticipation of your cooperation in this matter,

Yours faithfully

Xxxxxxxxxxx xxx

[ieuanMr]

I recieved a phone call from the Sales manager of Ford, he has agreed to our demands and has promised to refund the £400.00 difference and let us choose a car with air conditioning. I had sent a copy of all correspondence onto Santander as it would be them we would have taken to court as the debt holders and soemhow I think they have made the manager's mind up for him.

My thanks to all who put in so much valuable input and to the site for given me the necessary ammuntion to fire off at these people.

I will eneter £800.00 in the 'recovered' section, a good result but I am worried that they might outmanouvre us again...I wonder if I should get it in writing.

I still have not recieved a letter from NatWest in response to my Access Request and wonder if I should send another letter to shake them up a bit, they have not cashed the ten pound either.

 

thanks and regards to all

 

Ieuan

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi again

Well done on the refund, I would get it in writing if possible, maybe write politely to the Manager to confirm your phone conversation, thank him for his help and request confirmation in writing for your records.

Re the Subject Access Request - the have 40 days from receipt to respond, so early days yet.

CCA requests it's 12 + 2 working days after which you can put the account in dispute until they do.

Kind regards,

Elsa x

[middenmess]

Hi Ieaun,

 

Well done with dealing with Ford.

 

Now that you have found that you can get satisfaction when standing up to these companies will spur you on to great things when tackling Natwest.

[ieuanMr]

Middenmess,

Yes thank you. It's an outstanding result for a little attention to detail and some letters. But of course, it is only what they promised in the beginning, if we went to court we could get a lot more, but my son is easy going and would not want that. I just hope they are reasonable when it comes to settling.

Elsa,

Thank you for your help, you have been absolutely great. I am a bit out of date with law and it has been a great encouragment just to have someone batting on my side. I somehow though you would say 'get it in writing' and I think that is an ecellent suggestion. It might focus their attention so that when we go up to arrange details they won't be tempted to argue and be unpleasant.

The manager said that against his better judgement he was offereing this compromise, but of course Santander don't want legal problems and neither does his boss, it would cost them much more in court and psossibly the loss of the vehicle entirely and I am sure they don't want that. My son is happy to settle for what they promised. It's not as if we are cheating them, it's just what they promised us and retracted when we came to sign the agreement, they had added terms and ommitted the air conditioning. I was actually just going to write the CCA requests to sanader and to Ford when the phone call came. I think I will write the letter now and pop it up to them by hand and await confirmation before we go up there.

I think I will write those CCA requests to the bank although I have had a letter from one deprtment saying (well 2 departments now) they are looking into matters. I have had no respnse for my Access Request (42 days) and wondering whether I should write a chase up letter.

 

regards

 

Ieuan

[Undercover-Elsa]

It's up to you but I wouldn't bother with a chase up letter till the time is up.

I'm with you on this, whatever happened to good old customer service

"The customer is always right" !

Nowadays we have to fight for our rights, don't know what I'd have done without CAG!

[ieuanMr]

Ford chased upagaint today, very keen to settle but very rluctant to put anything in writing. Up to son now to decide what to do.

 

Still no news from NatWest about our Access request, I feel I must send a chasing letter, what if they neevr eecieved it. The £10.00 hasn't gone of the account yet. Elsa what is so important about the access request? What does it do when it arrives?

 

Thanks

 

Ieuan

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi,

The Subject Access Request demands ALL the data that Natwest holds on your son. This should include everything requested in your letter, bank statements, charges, computer records, copies of letters etc. I hope you requested it for ALL his accounts with Natwest?

From this you will be able to check for missold PPI and unfair bank charges with a view to reclaiming and hopefully it will also throw up all the relevant credit agreements to check for validity, although they don't always send these. The CCA request SHOULD provide the Agreements but very often lately banks are trying to wriggle out of this by sending templated agreements without a signature.

We'll deal with each thing as it comes back..you'll be best starting a new thread for each loan/credit card etc and link to them from here, to avoid confusion.

Re Ford, might just have to take them at their word, I suppose even if it's not in writing once your son has the £400 in his pocket and the car upgrade ...the job's a good 'un

Elsa x

[moneydragon]

Hi Ieuan

 

Nat West did not reply to my SAR they are so arrogant they think they are above the law so I reported them to the FOS for not complying. They then sent me only statements as they had lost/destroyed my credit agreement so I stopped payments to them, oh and I was awarded £50 too for my time.

 

So now it's stale mate they keep chasing me and I keep telling them to take a hike until they can furnish me with a true copy of my agreement.

 

So if Nat West treat everyone the same then dont hold your breath waiting!!

 

md

[ieuanMr]

Thanks Moneydragon, that is really helpful. I did recieve a letter today from NatWest and they want a utility bill before proceeding with my SAR. I shall send a letter tomorow,I typed out 3 CCA's and shall send them at the same time with my fee. It seems the Royal Bank of Scotland deal with all this and the address is:

NatWest

2nd Floor

Business House

PO Box 1000

Edingburgh

EH12 1HQ

My son is thinking things through and I think he will go for a cash deal, if he gets what he wants he may save more than the £800.00 we are asking for £200.00 to cover costs as well.

Who awarded you £50.00 moneydragon?

Thanks for the feedback you have all be splendid, I only hope I can reciprocate in some way with newcomers as you have all done with me.

Ieuan

 

 

[ieuanMr]

Thanks Elsa

Good advice I will indeed start a new thread tomorrow for each transaction, there should be five altogether I think plus the Ford one which is almost complete after very little effort, the OFT regulations seems to have finalised that nicely. I did send a SAR with all the accounts details and I have now applied for three CCA's. So there is not much else to do now but wait.

 

regards

Ieuan

[moneydragon]

Hiya ieuan

 

It was the FOS that concluded that Nat West had let me down and awarded me £50 for my troubles.

 

So if they do not comply with your request I would just report them to FOS.

md

[ieuanMr]

Have sent ford a stiff letter asking for £1000.00 off, they will be silly to contend in court as the whole debt could be wiped off. They have broken 3 points on the OFT regulations of July 2009 and the contract is unenforcable. We asked for costs of £200.00. If they fail to agree I shall complain to OFT, then when we win that we should walk through the county court.

Sent 3rd letter to NatWest asking for credit card statements, and asked for statements of current account going back 15 years for bank charges.

 

Our claims would be:

1. Small amount of bank charges maybe a few hundred at most

2. Even smaller amount for credit card charges

3. Possible cancellation of all Advantage Gold monthly fees because they have not kept to the terms in monitering his lending properly, the loans were too big for him to pay off, and we should get 8% as well.

4. PPI on credit card overdraft, one box was printed with a tick so there was no choice, no tranparancy, no fairness, all tied to the fixed sum loan.

5. Irresponsible lending, £30 081.60 Fixed sum loan (includes upfront PPI of £6096.00 ins loan + interest), £30 000.00 in 2007 on mortgage including fees. Clearly these loans were irresponsible as they included Upfront PPI for fixed loan, PPI montjly payment for mortgage loan and life insurance. He ran out of money by July this year. His bank account showed a clear demise regularly every month. So his loan situation was not being monitered as to the terms of the Adavntage Gold account. He applied for a further loan this summer and was turned down by the bank. The irresponsibility from the bank and himslef is apalling even an itinerant farm labourer could spot that these loans could not be serviced with the amount of charges he was paying and the number of bank products. I have to build a case to show how unfair it was to load these debts up on him, We are solvent now and cancelled everything so we have proved he could have managed if he has recieevd sound advice at the time. Which he did not get from NatWest contrary to the terms of the Advantage Godl account that promised to build a relationship (implied for mutual benefit) and to moniter and asses his lending needs. He could have done without any loans. They also said the would moniter for fraud and he was paying regularr amounts throughout this period to this crook, they were so regular and such an exact amount it must look suspicious. If I can get the relevant legislation I could beuild a case and possibly egt the whole amount cancelled as unfair and irresponsible lending. I wonder if the ombudsman is better, although they are very slow.

6. PPI on fixed sum looan £6096.00, patetly unfair, they told him it wa sa good deal and it certainly was not. + 8%

7. PPI on mortgage, monthly payments of £25.00 did not tell him he coudl shop around.

8. Life assurance for £30 000.00, not needed he has no family, it was for their benefit not his. $6.5 . month.

9. House insurance for contents is worthless , he ones nothing of value.

 

As I type this out I feel as if I am in that film 1984 when evrything is a lie and controleld and brainwashe by the state. They have done a job on him, taken his money (his Fault too) taken their bonuses and gone off to Spain laughing and rubbing their hands at what a sucker he is. And he has worked away in a factory working shifts and overtime just to service his loans that he did not need. He has worked 25 years and owns nothing of value, it's all debt.

 

Ieaun

[texanbar]

Hey Ieaun,

 

I'm sure we've all felt the same emotions as you as we reach a point of epiphany, so take pride that at least you know your rights and can start fighting them instead of just being on the receiving end. I'm sure there are lots of people out there who wish you was their dad at the moment!

 

Keep going

x:)x

[ieuanMr]

Thanks Texan

It was daunting at first but I see a chink of hope for the boy, I just hope we can salvage something out of this mess. I think he is learning and has started examining contracts and reading them and comparing prices. It's still a long road though and a lot of reading to do yet before we take any court action. Awaiting the SAR and various CCA's and now I need to read up on how they broke the law andn what I can do about it.

 

I got a PPI form today from the car HP company, although we never aske dfor one, all printed out ready for our signiture. They made it look as if it was in the terms of the contract and as if they expected us to sign. It cost £15.00/month for protectin which seems a lot to me for a cover of £5000.00, I am going to read up on the rules and complainto OFT.

 

regards

 

Ieuan

 

best wishes

 

Ieuan

[ieuanMr]

Sometimes I feel I am getting nowhere as I still have not formulated how to put my claim in for the big one, that would be irresponsible lending and is involved with the claiming back of £60 000.00. I found the OFT guidelines fancinating from Elsa earlier on this thread and that seems to have solved the problems with the Ford KA purchase.

 

I wonder where I can find a copy of the actual 1974 Consumer Credit Act and relevant ammendments that relate to activities in 2006 and 2007. I know there has to be a test for fairness and for transparancy.

 

I received a letter from NatWest this morning from a Senior Customer Advisor and yet she states that the bank is not entitled[sic] (I think she means obliged) to send me a schedule of charges later than 6 years old. She probably doesn't know I already have a printout for 6 years, but in her schedule she has missed two charges of £38.00 and 2 sets of interest of around £20.00 each. So she:

1. has misinformed me about the 6 year rule, or delibrately lied. This forum states that the banks are obliged to send all records if they have them going back to 1995 realting to overcharging.

2. omitted relevant information which is easy to prove as I have it here in two other formats.

3, claimed that OFT has ruled that the 6 years is their only liability, this is either misinformation or a delibrate lie. Should I ask for a copy of that OFT ruling I wonder?

[middenmess]

You will be able to locate a full copy of the act by googling.

 

Senior customer advisor just means that she has two brain cells as opposed to the one that is required to be an ordinary customer advisor and therefore probably means that she has much less comprehension of your rights than a daffodil.

[Undercover-Elsa]

There you go, Sir

Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Make a cup of tea first....

Elsa xx

[ieuanMr]

hahaha middennes, I had a similar thought. But very funny.

 

Dear Elsa, you are smashing, thanks very much.

[Undercover-Elsa]

Senior customer advisor just means that she has two brain cells as opposed to the one that is required to be an ordinary customer advisor and therefore probably means that she has much less comprehension of your rights than a daffodil.

 

 

Maybe you could write back and say you are insulted at being passed on to their SENIOR CUSTOMER Advisor..are they implying that you have Alzheimers? (Just joking!!)