@natwest_help NatWest Iressponsible lending - HELP PLEASE new develpements

[middenmess]

Did you actually ask them for a specific figure when making this particular claim against them?

 

On the brighter side by making this offer they are more or less admitting that you have a claim so if it was me I'd be agreeing with you and be writing to say that unless the full claim was paid out it would be a case of 'put your shiny shoes on,we're going to court'

 

However my opinion might well be at odds with other caggers who might feel differently.

[pumpytums]

Just a thought, (sorry if this has been bought up)

how long did your son have advantage gold for? beacause you should be able to claim back the fee's I'm certainly trying. My AG account goes back over 10 years thats quite a bit of money for nothing £1k+. Thanks to Bazaar for the headsup on this one.

 

Certainly worth a look, obviously overdraft interest can also be claimed too.

 

Good luck with your fight.

 

 

Pumpytums

[ieuanMr]

Midenmess

Thanks for the input. I did not put in a full claim or detail the amount I just happened to notice the room difference by scrolling through the policy document. I thought that they took advantage of him when he added to his mortgage.

 

regards

 

Ieuan

 

Pumpytums

Thanks for the input. Yes, I think I should claim back the Advantage Gold fees as they have not monitored my son's account in his best interests and to build up the relationship they speak of in the terms and conditons booklet.

I am awaiting the returns in my SAR and can make a specific claim when I have that box. My son joined in 2002 the same time as he took out the loan, I suspect there was an implied nod there that if he joined they would look more favourable at his application. They used their unassailable power base to obtain more money for pathetic piece of paper that he never used.

Could you kindly indicate where your thread is so I can follow it? I would like to see your reasoning if possible.

 

regards

 

Ieaun

Edited November 3, 2009 by ieuanMr

[pumpytums]

Midenmess

Thanks for the input. I did not put in a full claim or detail the amount I just happened to notice the room difference by scrolling through the policy document. I thought that they took advantage of him when he added to his mortgage.

 

regards

 

Ieuan

 

Pumpytums

Thanks for the input. Yes, I think I should claim back the Advantage Gold fees as they have not monitored my son's account in his best interests and to build up the relationship they speak of in the terms and conditions booklet.

I am awaiting the returns in my SAR and can make a specific claim when I have that box. My son joined in 2002 the same time as he took out the loan, I suspect there was an implied nod there that if he joined they would look more favourable at his application. They used their unassailable power base to obtain more money for pathetic piece of paper that he never used.

Could you kindly indicate where your thread is so I can follow it? I would like to see your reasoning if possible.

 

regards

 

Ieaun

 

Basically my reasoning behind claiming my advantage gold charges back is this. I have no written record of ever requesting them, so I therefore concluded that they were sold to me over the phone (this was 10+ years ago) or they were just added. I have never used the benefits and the charge has gone up, I knew I had AG but I was in some way frightened to cancel it I know this sounds weird. But up to a year ago I held financial institutions in awe I couldn't question them etc, obviously now I put them somewhere below predatory piscine waste. I digress, so I'm going for the miss-sell which it is I never have used the benefits and every time I tried I hit a wall and I moved on.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Pumpytums

 

 

Pumpytums

[ieuanMr]

I sent of my three 'in dispute' letters and have chased up an SAR with Ford XXXXXXXX, I received a letter from NatWest and they tell me they cannot supply records later than 6 years. I wrote back and demanded they supply all statements going back to 1995 including archive notes and archive history and any manual intervention. The SAR is up on the 3 December 2009.

 

I wish to take court action as soon as possible and that will be the beginning of December and claim charges for work on the SAR and ask the court to demand SAR and Access documents or make a judgement that the contracts are unenforcable. I am still worrying that the mortgage is not coverd by the relevent legislation. we have stopped our three payments on direct debit and that will save £750.00 /month.

What happens if they do supply the proper credit agreements within the time period? Do we have to resume premiums on these loans? Can I make a claim to the court without the bank charge details? and tell the court I am embarrassed?

[ieuanMr]

I have decided to make my first detailed claim today from NAtWest, and although I am pleased that they have made an offer have decided to take to court to establish how effective these regulations are in arguing using them as the basis for a claim. I have penned a long letter (5 pages) of argument quoting the legislation in my claim for the moeny overpaid in the house insurance.

I cannot get these interest tables from this site to work so I have been obliged to fall back on my old mathsmtics books to work out the series for interest paid in a series over a time period of 86 months. It's quite simple really once you get into it, my next step will be to glean from my old books how to calculate compound interest for the same type of time frame.

[middenmess]

Compound interest calculator!!!

 

 

Do you mean 5 pages to Nat West or 5 pages to Court?

 

5 pages to court spells trouble see.....

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/230352-sj-lost-but-battle.html

[ieuanMr]

Hello Middenemess

I was thinking 5 pages to NatWest but with a summary, I have put the section in the regulations as extracts so that I can refer to them easily for future use in my other claims (now numerous). The summary will however just quote the relevent section heading. I am doing this so that when it comes to court there will be no case for them to say I have not raised any issue already in my pre court claim.

 

I have for instance made a calim that they have not adressed in full, so in my 2nd letter I have said that since they have not addressed my original claim in full then that claim is withdrawn and this is my amended claim.

 

I know that in court I have to ask permission to amend my claim from the court. I have read varous threads on negotiations and undertsand that it is betetr to exlore all issues before the court day and hopefully get an agreement. But thanks for raising this point.

 

Thanks for the calculator I will try it out.

 

regards

 

Ieaun

[middenmess]

I'd rather be in your shoes than Nat.West's!!--

 

You're going to make their lives a misery:D

[ieuanMr]

They have sent me an offer but in doing so have admitted that they did not bother to work out the refund due to my son and did not bother to inform him. They say that they noticed the mistake in 2005 and adjusted the premium. However on checking their claim that they gave a refund on the premium I find that the ratios remain roughly the same, the first two years being much higher than the rest compared to the insured value of the house and even go up again 2007.

This failure to rectriy a fault that they knew about seems, at the very least, an appropriate of my son's money and especally grave as they now seeme to have wandered into the realms of approriation of funds to gain a benefit for their company, an offence especially refered to in the Fraud Act of 2006:

2 Fraud by false representation

(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—

(a) dishonestly makes a false representation,

(5) For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it

(or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device

designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without

human intervention).

3 Fraud by failing to disclose information

A person is in breach of this section if he—

(a) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is

under a legal duty to disclose, and

(b) intends, by failing to disclose the information—

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

4 Fraud by abuse of position

(1) A person is in breach of this section if he—

(a) occupies a position in which he is expected to safeguard, or not to act

against, the financial interests of another person,

(b) dishonestly abuses that position, and

© intends, by means of the abuse of that position—

(i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

(2) A person may be regarded as having abused his position even though his

conduct consisted of an omission rather than an act.

 

5 “Gain” and “loss”

(1) The references to gain and loss in sections 2 to 4 are to be read in accordance

with this section.

(2) “Gain” and “loss”—

(a) extend only to gain or loss in money or other property;

(b) include any such gain or loss whether temporary or permanent;

and “property” means any property whether real or personal (including things

in action and other intangible property).

(3) “Gain” includes a gain by keeping what one has, as well as a gain by getting

what one does not have.

 

Although the monetary value is small I feel that this is an extremly serious situatio for the Bank and for any of its employees amployed byt hem. thier aciont has apporpraied moeny from my son deleibrately and by ommision has casued him a loss. This breaches common law and the Fraud Act 2006, the Unfair Trading terms of the Consumer protection Act of 1974 and ammendments. If anyone could give a view to further action including reporting to the regulatory authorities I would be very grateful.

Thank you

 

Ieuan

link: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts2006/pdf/ukpga_20060035_en.pdf

[ieuanMr]

I have had to work out back interest and could not get the one provided by this forum to load. So I looked up my old maths books and here is an example of how to work out one situation that might arise. Say that you are claiming for back interest on something that has been overpaid. This example will involve regular amounts overpaid on a monthly basis say over 7 years 2 months and the interest is 8%.

Let the term of the payments be 86 months (7 years 2 months) and

Let n = number of periods

Let interest be expressed monthly (.08/12) = int = i.

Let the monthly saving amount be £7.76 = a.

 

tis problesm involves 86 months, so the 1st payment earns 85 periods of interest.

1st term = 85 x a x i = 86ai

2nd term = 85ai

.

last term = 1ai

therefore the average interest is 86/2

average interest = 43ai.

term = 86 months

total interest = 86 terms x average interest

 

or another way to express it is n/2{a x (n-1)i}

= 43 x 85 x ai

this means there are 3655 periods of interest due at 8%/month

= 3655 x 7.76 x .08/12

= 3655 x .0517333

= £189.60

 

If anyone struggles to understand this, look at it this way the first terms is 85 payments of interest + 2nd term of 84 payments of interest and so on so there are 86 terms multiplied by the mean or the average because the series is 86 payments for the 1st term and only one term for the last. You may wish to draw a triangle to show the paymens and you can see then how an average works very well.

 

I will try and sort out a compound interest formula tomorow.

Edited November 8, 2009 by ieuanMr

[middenmess]

Using Compound interest calculator!!! the first 4 years of Compound Interest using £7.76 and 8% works out to be £197.75 according to me.

 

Is this for PPI repayment or extra house insurance repayment?

[ieuanMr]

Hi middenmess

I was working out interest on payments made over a period of 86 seperate montly payments of £7.76 as an example. These payments would earn interest of 8%/12 every month and are simple interest calculations. The first payment would earn interest over a perion of n-1 periods = 86- = 85 periods at 8%/12 =£4.45

the 2nd monthly payment woul earn 86-2 periods = 84 x 7.76 x .08/12 = £3.45

The last term would earn n - 85 =1 x 7.76 x .08/12 = 0.052

 

the average of term 1 and term 85 = (4.45 + .05)/2 = 2.25

so the total amount of simple interest is £191.25

 

The difference in my two final figures is becaase I rounded off the monthly amount to 2 decimal places before calculating.

 

I was trying to work out back interest on the house insurance but I guess this method of calculation could be applied for any terms and for any amounts.

 

regards

 

Ieaun

Edited November 8, 2009 by ieuanMr

[ieuanMr]

I reviewed our actions since the start of these problem with my son's finances and have written up a schedule of action and reply from NatWest. Since the 20th August there have been 37 letters of correspondense back and forth, in the main we have sent most of the letters and there is one or two more to go, one with a summary of my complaints and two a letter to the House Insurence department asking them to review their offer.

 

Three CCA's were up last week and we are now in dispute and no more payments will be made. One SAR is due on the 12th November and then I shall hand the whole lot over to the Banking Ombudsman. It is far too complicated for me and in view of the admission of an ommision there is a possibility that the Fraud Act 2006 is applicable in one of my complaints. In any event the bank has driven coaches and horses through the Irresponsible lending and Unfair Trading regulations, squashed the guidence notes of July 2009 issued under the terms of the Enterprises act and generally bahaved abominably to my son.

 

I don't think there is much more to say, other than writing all these letters, researching the relevent acts and keeping busy on all this filing has helped pass the time and helped settle my stress levels. It is surpising how time flies, that it takes up most of my life and I often don't finish till 2 in the morning is immaterial as on Thurday I can hand the whole caboodle over to the regaultory authorities in the form of the Ombudsman. He can do all the work and I still have my option that I can disregard the findings of the Ombudsman and resort to county court proceding should I wish to do som or if my son agrees that we shoudl persue in the courts.

 

I realise I dare no send my solicitor even one letter asking for advise as the Ombudsman would then refuse to become involved. I have used the Ombudsman before and he did alow Interest to be claimed back at 8% for the whole term although there was no mention fo cost s in his judgement, he did allow me to claim £600.00 for a quick settlement off the Equitable and they did ineed cough up. I wonder if they will consider restitutionary damages? Is there a precedent for that I wonder?

 

I wonder if anyone has the address for the Banking Ombudsman?

 

Ieuan

Edited November 12, 2009 by ieuanMr

[middenmess]

''I wonder if anyone has the address for the Banking Ombudsman?''

 

 

The Banking Ombudsman

[ieuanMr]

Hmmm, that's a bit of a shock to the system Middenmess, I had no idea they were that bad. I think I will have to rethink my strategy here... can't anyone say somthing good about the Banking Ombudsman?

 

My detailed claim went off today together with a schedule of correspondence, a copy of my detailed claim regarding House Insurence and a copy of the PPI schedule. Sent the detailed claim off by recorded delivery. If you want to check that recorded delivery has been delivered you can get confirmation on the Post Office website and it will confirm the delivery from the code number on the recorded delivery reciept. I have found tha some of the post codes from the Banks own records are inaccurate, friendly counter staff will help by checking the address for you at the post office and giving you the correct post code.

 

My SAR is up on Thursday and there has been no notification from NatWest that they have read my 'In Dispute letters', three of them. We have stopped all payments now and it is a substanial amount of money, I thought this might get them worked up a little but no! nothing from them at all? I can't undertsand it.

 

I suppose I have to give them another 7+2 days notice before taking them to court and demanding the SAR? I wonder what we should claim for damages for no SAR, should it be the whole shebang or a token amount to show all the work involved in getting this far? I estimate I have spent at least 40 hours preparing all the work and writing all these letters. I suppose a fair price would be £25.00/letter, the same as what solicitors charge? The actual cost is about £1.50 perletterconsidering envelopes, coppy pages, ink, stamps, recorded deiveries, paper clips staples and so on. I suppose some people would claim £125.00/hour but I would not know how to justify it in court...any ideas anyone. Has anyone evr claimed damages and won?

 

If the SAR doesn't arrive on Thurday then I should instigate court action for damages on the 22nd Novemebr 2009, if I do that then I cannotinvolve the Ombudsman. Is that what the bank is trying to do in delaying and making no real effort to settle within the 8 weeks?

Edited November 9, 2009 by ieuanMr

[ieuanMr]

I found a regulation of which I was not aware and here is the link:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992083.htmcit is a plain text document of the 1999 Consumer Protection Act regarding Unfair Terms so any contract made after this date are bound by this act. It seem very fair to the consumer and I think you should check pre contract agreement very careully for 'non cancellation' clauses and clauses that are not defined in the docucment i.e. clauses that you have to send away for, these would be unfair.

 

It points out that the pre contract document has to be given in time to be perused by the creditor and that the terms have not been added to or benefits ommited which were stated earlier. In our case with Ford there were clauses that were not available and we were told we could write in for them, this is an unfair term under the act. Our pre contract also stated that it could not be cancelled wheras they could cancel it for a numeber of reasons, this is unfair under the act. Ford actually added costs to our contract at the last minute and that is also unfair. It has to be decided by a court if these unfair acts make the contract unworkable, but in our case there were so many breaches of the act that it would be grossly unfair to enforce it, I think it is unenforcable.

 

Ieuan

Edited November 10, 2009 by ieuanMr

[ieuanMr]

We paid our last premium to Santander on the 2nd of this month relating to the vehicle we bought, I find it staggering that they have not replied to my CCA yet and the same with Fordxxxx to my SAR.

 

NatWest issued a new booklet of Terms and Conditons regarding current accounts which we recieved in the post today.

Some of the Changes:

Section 7 maintenance charge reduced to £20.00 from £28.00

Paid referral fee charged obly if over £15.00 on the day

Guaranteed card payment fee £15 from £35

Unpaid item fee £15 from £35

Section 8 Now includes details of of debit card charges

Section 7

Maintenance charge £20

 

I think most of the preliminary work has been done, yet I fret over the thought that we have stopped:

1. mortgage payment of £399/month

2. Fixed loan repayments of £218.00/month

3. and car repayments of £109.00/month

 

The last payment on the car was made on the 2nd of this month. The first stopped payment for the loan is due today, so I would expect a response from NatWest soon, although they did have an 'In Dispute letter' from me and it was delivered the next day according to the Post Office.

 

According to the advice from this forum when an account is in dispute then no action can be taken by the bank:

they cannot:

1. levy any charges

2. levy interest

3. sell the debt

4. harrass us in anyway

5. cannot attempt to collect the debt by any means

 

In consideration of these facts what can the bank do? As already stated I have communicated with them for two months and have copies of all correspondence to prove it. They are examining my PPI claims, I know that and they have made an offer regarding my House Insuance claim but other than that there as been a deafening silence...if such a thing can exist. Certainly, it shows a long period of non reponse which would not look good for them should it go to court. I don't see how they can show so much inactivity to so many letters with long explanatons of: the history of my son's dealings, about the fraud, about their irresponsible lending practices and the loading up of debt.

 

In the light of so much inactivity I shall be compelled to make up histograms of his payments over the years, the charges from the bank are very small because he has always honoured his debts until now. And even then we are following the law in all ways. If an account is in dispiute we are entitled to withhold payments...I think. I do worry about the mortgage, £40 000.00 is with the original mortgage agreement and I don't know if I am entitled to stop payment on the original amount or just under the extra borrowings as they are under the CCA 1974. Should I pay part of the mortgage, i.e. the difference between the original loan and the additional borrowings? Or should I just stop payments of all the mortgage and then let it go to court?

Edited November 10, 2009 by ieuanMr

[IainHL]

.

.

I am still worrying that the mortgage is not covered by the relevent legislation.

.

What happens if they do supply the proper credit agreements within the time period? Do we have to resume premiums on these loans?

 

Hello again ieuanMr. It is indeed most likely that the mortgage is not covered by the relevant legislation (presuming by this you mean the Consumer Credit Act 1974). As most mortgages these days are for an amount greater than £25,000 that would have been outside the scope of CCA1974 (not sure how the 2006 amendments affect this). Sorry if this is not what you want to hear.

 

If they do supply proper credit agreements, either within the time period or afterwards you would be obliged to resume payments. Obviously if it is afterwards you have a strong position to negotiate with them as to what they should/should not do (eg: registering defaults or missing payments on your credit file). I did this with one of mine, they finally supplied a valid credit agreement after 2 months, so they agreed that they would not count the payments I didn't make as missing, but instead that they would add 2 months to the term of the loan, and I will make those payments at the end (this was a hire purchase agreement).

[IainHL]

I estimate I have spent at least 40 hours preparing all the work and writing all these letters. I suppose a fair price would be £25.00/letter, the same as what solicitors charge? The actual cost is about £1.50 perletterconsidering envelopes, coppy pages, ink, stamps, recorded deiveries, paper clips staples and so on. I suppose some people would claim £125.00/hour but I would not know how to justify it in court...any ideas anyone. Has anyone evr claimed damages and won?

Take a look on the OPSI web site for the Litigant in Person Act, it has agreed rates for time (~£9 per hour) and letters (~£6 each) that you could claim for costs as a Litigant in Person should you win a court case. Those are the amounts I would suggest you should claim at this stage. It is entirely realistic to claim all the hours you have spent on research.

Edited November 10, 2009 by IainHL
Added extra bit for clarity.

[IainHL]

I do worry about the mortgage, £40 000.00 is with the original mortgage agreement and I don't know if I am entitled to stop payment on the original amount or just under the extra borrowings as they are under the CCA 1974. Should I pay part of the mortgage, i.e. the difference between the original loan and the additional borrowings? Or should I just stop payments of all the mortgage and then let it go to court?

Actually, further to my post above I see you are questioning this yourself (I hadn't read down far enough). I would say you are only entitled to stop payments on the extra borrowings (presuming they were secured loan agreements regulated by CCA1974). Therefore I would continue to pay the original mortgage amount and withhold the repayments on the additional borrowings. However, personally in this situation I would cancel the direct debit as you have done and make payments by some other means (standing order or online banking payment).

 

The problem with withholding the complete payment and letting it go to court is that the action NatWest would take would be for a repossession order. Apart from the fact that they always add large amounts of costs in the process, this would leave you without the asset, and they would settle all their outstanding borrowings from the proceeds of the sale (which would be quite likely to be at a discounted price).

[ieuanMr]

Thanks Iain,

That is very useful information. Things are so quiet that I am suspecting there is a reason of it. The original mortgage agreement is not subject to the CCA 1974 only the extra borrowings so it would be silly of me to jeopardise that and spoil everything for my son.

 

Was I entitled to ask for the mortgage agreements under the terms of the data protection act? I think I was as it is about data not consumer credits. So until they provide a copy of the mortgage than I don't have to pay, is that right?

 

I notice the re-mortgage in 2002 of £40 000 was with an arrangement fee of £914.13, think that is unfair, I also notice that they have included a PPI of £25.09 I believe this is a roll over contract adding former PPI's and rolling over debt. I think it is unfair what they did, on the basis that we are in dispute and they have not responded is it reasonable to withold payments? I think it is but need some basis in law. Can you assist?

 

The further loan of £30 000 in april 2007 was in fact made on the basis of a mortgage agreement not the Consumer Credit Act of 1974.

 

We are torn between going for broke and limiting our risk. Sometime me and my son chat about it and think it would be best to let a court sort it out but then there is the cost if they go to the high court. Then we think let's be rid of the mess, sell the house and take what is left.

I think that when the time is up for the SAR, we should apply to the county court to make them supply all documents and claim damages but how to work those damages out I have no idea. I don't see how the bank can claim the house back if they are in default of the Data Protection Act, if they do provide the documents then of course we have to start payments again.

Edited November 10, 2009 by ieuanMr

[ieuanMr]

I just noticed your earlier comments Iain, they were on page 6. Thanks for that link on costs I will read it up. Yes I liked what you posted and it follows my own reasoning, if the bank supplies all the agreements then I can negotiate with them for the missing payments. The payment holiday itself is very USeful for us. I can then withhold mortgage agreement if they have not dsupplied the agrement on time and un til they do supply them? Or is that only for the CCA 1974?

 

regards

 

Ieuan

Edited November 12, 2009 by ieuanMr

[ieuanMr]

HFC bank have replied and say that they don't owe me any obligation to provide a CCA request after the contract has ended and they confirm the ending of the 2 contracts in March 2005 and June 2007. Although they do state that they are examining my claim for misselling of PPI very seriously. Maybe I should have sent them a SAR with £10.00?

 

Barclays took a different tack altogether and feign that they have no sort code or account NUmber and yet I have used the relevant numbers from the documents themselves. Barclay returned my cheque whereas FC kept it, maybe they are short of cash? They returned my letters and the CAA letter.

Edited November 12, 2009 by ieuanMr

[middenmess]

SAR to both tomorrow morning then--they are experts in prevarication.