@natwest_help NatWest Iressponsible lending - HELP PLEASE new develpements

[ieuanMr]

I am acting for my son who has debt running to £112 000.00 including interest. he started with a £24 000.00 mortgage in 1994 and has now told us he can't make the repayments to NatWest. His original mortgage repayment was £113.00 per month and he brought home £1000.00 p/m. Now we find his repayments to the bank for mortgage is £399.00 + £250.00 for a fixed loan including £6000.00 PPI. His take home pay is now around £1300.00.

 

One good thing is he has kept all his paperwork faithfully, but only two years of statements. It is such a complicated situation and so long standing that I don't quite know how to begin. I have been sitting on this for 4 weeks and researched, taken advice, been to see and taken a huge lot of action to stop:

1. Fraud (a pal ripped him of for years) stopped the fraud, informed police and regained a portion of the money, enough to make a difference.

2. Stopped all direct debits, all 21 of them, most to NatWest

3. Cancelled all PPI although they are still charging him money as they say the early years are less because of the type of arrangement. He will still pay £18.00 a month for the next 7 years.

4. Stopped Life insurance (Natwest)

5. Stopped PPI on mortgage a monthly payment of £26.00 Mortgage balnce now 57k from 64K 2007.

6. Stopped house insurance £28.00/m NatWest

7. Put BT on the lowest contract available

8. Put Orange on the lowest available

9. Ripped out emmerison heater and tank, doesn't need all that wasted hot water to shave and wash, uses power shower to bathe

10 Arranges cavity wall and loft insulation to cap heating bills this winter, Swalec have helped and he pays only £187.00 for their service

11. Arranged for a water meter, 2 weeks time, should save £20.00/m

12. Sold gus guzzler van and bought new car on HP , petrol is now 63 mpg. He has to have a reliable car to keep his job and his van was 13 year old and beyond repair for the MOT. If the worst happens the HP can reclaim the car.

13. cashed in his ISA of £1300.00 and used that to bolster his cash flow

14. Cancelled his credit card, his charges and PPI with interest came to 79% over a year.

15. cancelled his Advantage Gold account £13.00/m

16. stopped all payment for things he doesn't need.

 

Before these changes his outgoings were £500.00/m more than his income, his income is now £228.00/m in the black but it is very tight inded. We (his mother and I) reckon that if he can hang on for one year he may be able to turn the situation around. but this depends on him getting a raise in January (£1000.00) and the economy turning around so that he can work overtime (£1000.00 pa- £3000.00 pa).

 

He has two major loans:

1. Mortgage of £64 000.00 + Interest taken out in 2006 by the adding of £17 000.00 to an existing mortgage of £40 000.00 the PPI on this is monthly and around £28.00/m, this one we have stopped. The repayment of this is £399.00/m +PPI intalment now stopped.

 

2. £17 000.00 fixed loan taken out because he could not repay the mortgate taken out the year before. Together with the upfront PPI and interest adds up to a repayment of £30 000.00 over ten years. the monthly repayment in total was £250.00 now as we have cancelled it down to £218 p.m. the repayment without the PPI should be £200.00/m

 

He started in 1994 with a £24000.00 mortgage and a monthly repayment of £116.00/m. It seems he got into the habit of financing small loans to pay of existing loans, all with PPI. So PPi has constantly been added to the ne laons, the conclusion isn obvious he is funding evrything on the basis of a salary and raising hosue values. He lievs alone, is not on drugsm cigarrtes or alcohla in fact he lives like a monk and his house hasn't been touched since he bought it. I have photographs. His only weakness is his guitar playing and his group, his music collection and the odd girlfeinds that walks into his life.

 

I banked with NatWest for 40 yearsand so did my father, I sort of expected that they would look after my son. He is 40 but it seems fiancially illiterate.

 

I have written to NatWest explaining the situation and asking for help in dealing with this matetr. They have written back saying they await my formal complaint with figures. I have told them that my complaint will be along the lines of:

1. Misselling of PPI

2. Lack of care with the Gold account

3. excessive lending, carless.

4. Unfair charges on credit card

 

I am actually trying to formulate a plan to sue for:

1. They have not shown due care and dilligence in providing loans witch with a little effort they could have found out as I have done that he was being defrauded andn that his cahflow could not sustain his borrowings. It is nobvious that he is refinancing to borrow. He in fact told that to them and they then sold him upfront PPI of £6000.00 including interest.

2. Under the terms of the Advantage Gold account they promise to use data on his borrowings and on his usage (statement) to monitor for fraud and to recoommend action. They have not done this and he paid them £13.00/m. I should claim all this back to 2002.

3. Since the bank has added PPI from previous loans and other finance companies this has esculated the debt problem and is clearly unfair. i would expect a court to declare the loan unenforcable due to this unfairness as the agreement is under the consumer Credit Act 194 with ammendmenmts (17K loan)

4. The credit card charges are unfair as they are part of the Advantage Gold account and they should have warned him about these charges and interest if they were monitering his usage. They say that they use theinformation to consolidate a relationship, I reckon that relationship was one way and without due care and diligence.

 

I am wondering if I have a case to stop payment on everything and let them sue him?

 

I desperatly need a buddy on this and would appreciate anyhelp.

 

Thanks

 

Ieuan

Edited September 26, 2009 by ieuanMr

[middenmess]

Hi Ieuan,

 

 

You've got a lot to deal with there!!!

 

You've come to the right place there will be many caggers able to advise and support you here.

[ieuanMr]

Thanks middeness, I hope so. He has gone through hell.

[middenmess]

Bump for advice.

[texanbar]

Hi Ieuan,

 

Well done for starting to take charge over your families finances. I would start right from the beginning with each credit card / loan and would in the first instance start with getting a copy of CCA (Credit card agreement) for which there are template letters here.

 

With regards to Natwest, I would also do a SAR (Subject Access Request) - fee £10.00 whereby they should send you all information/data they hold. Both of these requests have time limits on for them to return the said information to you, which after this time has lapsed you can send in a Account in Dispute letter and begin to cease payments.

 

I have done both the above and have since stopped my payments although all my debt is now in the hands of various DCA (debt collection agencies), I am happy to continue down this route as I believe most of my CCA are unenforceable.

 

I'm really rubbish at linking template letters here, (sorry) but you will find them in the library. I'm sure someone with even more experience and/or different advice will come along soon.

 

Take care, you've got lots of support in here.

x:)x

[ieuanMr]

Wow Texan, such a quick and helpful reply, I will get on it straight away. I have a had a letter from NatWest this week and I have asked them for all the credit card statement over the last 6 years but somehow they have avoided answering that. So, I will send of the fee immediately and hopefully if the are late I can stop payments on the mortgage and on the fixed loan.

 

Reading through some of the threads it seems I have them on loading former PPI's onto new loans, that alone would make the contract unfair and unenforceable?

 

So if I send for this Subject Access what will i do with it when I recieve it, what is it for? Will it include all the statements for the last 6 years.

 

Thanks again for your help, much appreciated.

 

regards

 

Ieuan

Edited September 27, 2009 by ieuanMr

[moneydragon]

Hi ieuanMr

 

What would we do without parents!

 

Here is the cca letter template: http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/581-cca-request-letter

 

and the sar letter template:

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/576-subject-access-request-debt-a-dca

 

Good luck:)

 

md

[ieuanMr]

Thanks Moneydragon

I must say find the legal process daunting. The last time I went to court was 40 years ago and I sued an employer for back wages. That was the second time the first time I settled out of court and won £500.00 (20 weeks wages) I settled for £400.00 to get it over and still regret it. The second time I went the full hog and only managed to win part of my claim due to a friendly judge, I also won costs and again suspect the judge and my solicitor were pals.

 

So if I send these demands for information this puts the onus onto the bank to comply and if they mess up then they cannot take legal action further and the debt is just hanging in thin air? I can then suspend payments as the debt is unenforecable, have I got that right. If they cannot produce the documents at all then the debt is also unenforecable?

 

regards

 

Ieaun

[middenmess]

Thanks Moneydragon

I must say find the legal process daunting. The last time I went to court was 40 years ago and I sued an employer for back wages. That was the second time the first time I settled out of court and won £500.00 (20 weeks wages) I settled for £400.00 to get it over and still regret it. The second time I went the full hog and only managed to win part of my claim due to a friendly judge, I also won costs and again suspect the judge and my solicitor were pals.

 

So if I send these demands for information this puts the onus onto the bank to comply and if they mess up then they cannot take legal action further and the debt is just hanging in thin air? I can then suspend payments as the debt is unenforecable, have I got that right. If they cannot produce the documents at all then the debt is also unenforecable?

 

regards

 

Ieaun

 

You've more or less right,but it's often not as straight forward as it should be as the bank's often think that you're wrong and that they are always right or put another way they try to make you think that you are in the wrong and that you should believe everything that they say.

 

Just keep posting on here with all that happens and plenty of help will be available and keep all communication with 'them' in writing only and do not talk on the phone with them.

[moneydragon]

When you send a cca you need to send one pound and give them 12+ 2 working days and if you hear no more or they are unable to comply send them an "in dispute" lettter (template is on here but give us a shout if you can not find it). Then you can cease payments, but be warned speaking from experience with nat west, they will through every dirty trick at you to get money from you.

 

As for the sar you need to send £10 and I think they have 40 days to comply but I am sure someone more knowledgeable will come along shortly and advise.

 

Oh and NEVER NEVER speak with these on the phone do everything in writing and dont sign anything, use a electronic signature as they have been known to copy your signature and create a cca (cunning bar stewerds).

 

Good luck and keep posting;)

 

md

[ieuanMr]

Today I am determined to make the effort and get the SAR request done, it is a huge mental and emotional barrier to me and I figure that somehow the past has invaded my space and stopping me doing something that is quite simple. Receieved statement of charges for the Gold Account from NatWest yesterday and was pleasantly surprised, I can t see any huge amounts of charegs but it is a start, my letter two weeks ago was a quiet request and they have honoured that. But there is no list of statement charges for the credit card account and that is the one where the most abuse has taken place. The house insurance department from NatWest got us on the phone yesterday and were quite aggresive, tried to sell us house insurance down fron £29.00/month to £18.00/month, their greed knowns no bounds, They charged us one months notice £29.00 and a cancellation fee of £25.00 my son agreed, he is putty in their hands although I see signs of hatred filling his eyes at times. Strange because he is as mild a mannered man as I have ever met in life. They refusd to accept the cancellation letter of two weeks ago and insist that the cancellation operates from yeterday as according to them, policies can only be cancelled by phone, the lying dogs. I have told my wife and son never to speak to NatWest on the phone ever again, they have agreed.

My son has agreed to give me his money, just in case and will open a new account as advised on this site, on Thurday I will then pay what he has into the new account. The weight of pain and dread is overbearing at times to see him struggle on his double shift system and no light at the end of the tunnel. After 15 years of hard work he is more in debt now that ever. he started with a mortgage of £160.00 per month and is now paying £618.00/month reduced by £22.00 because we cancelled the PPI. They still insist that the £1600.00 will not be baid to us but will be used to pay of his loan on the PPI, we wanted it all cancelled and refunded. he has been paying PPI on all his loans going back ten years.

My morning are spent on his paperwork, the files are huge and the afternoons I use to lay a concrete drive for him, the physical effort is good for me and somehow it takes my mind of his plight, if only I could will this situation to end, the pain is like a saw that buzzes away every living moment of my day and night. The neighbours know the situation, some snigger most are sorry. The cavity wall insulation is in and yesterday the loft was insulated so he will be warm this winter, I removed the hot water cylinder he was wasting money on 30 gallons of hot water a day and full price electricity and only using a gallon to wash and shave, it dissipated as waste heat throguhout the day. The water meter should be installed in three weeks and that should save him money. I don't know how to cancel the BT and Orange contracts, I have heard they are ruthless in pursuing contract arreas. I did manage to put BT and Orange onto the cheapest contracts but it is still money we need to make ends meet. He has £49.00 a week spare at the moment.

I have decided to write up this trial as a diary and it may help others out there to see what is involved. And for my son's sake.

 

My thanks go out to all who have very kindly written in. God bless you all.

 

Ieaun

[middenmess]

Well done,Ieuan,the first step is often the most difficult in addressing any debt situation.

 

It'll be like pushing treacle up hill for a while but once you're into the swing of how to deal with the lenders it will become second nature.

 

There will always be help available here,and I for one look forward to reading 'The Diary'

[texanbar]

Last diary I read was Bridget Jones

Good luck Ieuan

 

x:)x

[moneydragon]

Hey Ieuan you've done the hardest thing - getting started.

 

You will get sound advice and encouragement off this site and before you know it you will be confident in taking these low lifes on!

 

And speaking from experience there is light at the end, just keep plodding on!

 

Cant wait for the diary;)

 

md

[ieuanMr]

I sent the letter off

 

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

xxxxxxxxx

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

xxxxxxxx

 

 

National Westminster Bank plc

135 Bishopsgate

London

EC2M 3UR

30th September 2009

 

.

xxxxxxxxx.

edited as |I think it contravenes the forums rules as regarding divulging the content of templates

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

Xxxxxxxxxxxxx xx

Edited October 17, 2009 by ieuanMr

[ieuanMr]

I sent the above letter off, took me an hour to finish and glad when the letter with a cheque for £10.00 was sent of at the main post office. I did not bother with the recorded delivery and if no answer in two weeks will send again. I liked the box where the correct address could be found for each adress for each bank, it was a relief not to have to wade through all the differenrt addresses on this forum.

I got a letter from another NatWest department saying they were answering my comlaint but I have not actually made a complaint yet I have just told them that I am getting a complaint together and that it will take 3 weeks, but as it could take 40 days for all the documents to arrive.

My complaint is formulating in my mind and I have narrowed it down to three areas:

1. Excessive and unfair charges regarding his current account and his credit card account.

2. PPI contrcats i) by a pre-fixed charge and interest over the period of the fixed sum loan ii) PPI as a monthly charge on the mortgage

3. Lack of due care and dilligence on lending money where there is hardship involved in the repayments of these loans and non compliance of the Advantage Gold terms and conditions where it states they will build a relationship and moniter his borrowing needs, this seems to imply that they will be responsible in their lending and they opatently have not been reasonable.

 

It is amazing how good it is to share this burden with people on a site like this, and amazing that total strangers are willing to spend time and effort in supporting people like my son and myself. My thanks to all who have responded in such a kindly way and I hope soon to respond in kind.

 

Now that I have sent off for this access request I wonder if there is something else I have to do or will all the documents come without me having to send of a £1.00 fee for other information?

 

regards

 

ieuan

[middenmess]

Hi Ieuan,

 

It's always worth the 75p to send any communication to a creditor as it saves them saying that they have not received your letter and obviously also negates the need to repeat your request and the cost of another stamp.

The fact that the time scale for compliance begins on the receipt of the request is also of importance.

 

A CCA request at £1 per company [sent recorded!!] is often an excellent investment..

 

Have you read this?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/216538-claim-stayed-due-unenforceable-8.html#post2470841

[middenmess]

Oops-meant to say look at post 154 on that thread.

[ieuanMr]

Thanks, yes I take your advice Middemess and it' only a pound and can save two weeks. I will do so in future.

I don't have to make any more request do I? I have send a the letter for informaton on allaccounts with NatWest so just wait 40 days now for a reply?

I read that link regrding MBMA, thank goodness for people who ahve the guts to persue the banks in the courts. I wonder what the risk is of court actuon, can one lose everything if one loses the case as costs may be awarded agaisnt the litigator?

Do I have to make a seperate CCA request over and above the subject Access request?

 

Ieuan

[middenmess]

Thanks, yes I take your advice Middemess and it' only a pound and can save two weeks. I will do so in future.

I don't have to make any more request do I? I have send a the letter for informaton on allaccounts with NatWest so just wait 40 days now for a reply?

I read that link regrding MBMA, thank goodness for people who ahve the guts to persue the banks in the courts. I wonder what the risk is of court actuon, can one lose everything if one loses the case as costs may be awarded agaisnt the litigator?

Do I have to make a seperate CCA request over and above the subject Access request?

 

Ieuan

 

You might well get a copy of the original CCA included in the SAR request but sending a separate request obligates them to supply it within 12 days plus 2 days for posting.

 

Give you something to read [and post about!] whilst waiting for the SAR to arrive

 

Template in the CAG library

 

Court action is a way of yet so not to worry about that yet-my understanding is that the lower the court the less the eventual costs [if you lose] but with all the help available here the chances of losing with high costs will be very much reduced.

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi,

Sorry to hear about your problems! As said above, your son is very lucky to have such caring parents and I applaud you for your efforts to help him.

All good advice so far. Make them prove what he owes, and for those who have the correct documentation, claim back any unfair charges.

From hereonin keep anything they send, in particular watch out for default notices which are very significant and have to be to a precise format. More about that if he gets any!

In the meantime you may find this link to the OFT Guidance on Irresponsible Lending useful:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/consultations/oft1107con.pdf

 

Hope this helps, and best of luck,

Elsa x

[ieuanMr]

There wasn't much to do yeterday after the access request had gone off, we both heaved a sigh of relief that it had gone. My son opened a seperate bank acount (as suggetsed by this forum) and put his remaining cash there. Next, when his cheque books arrive he will transfer his salary to go there and make two standing orders for his mortgage and fixed loan repayments.

The house is noticably warmer after the instalation of the cavity wall and loft insulation and much quieter. The cost was £127.69, much cheaper than we had thought and subsidised by SWALEC, our utility provider. We bought a new matress as the old one had all but fallen apart and at least he can sleep warm and comfortable this winter. I think his plight has struck home, the awfulness of his debt and he isn't a person to hate anyone but I feel NatWest has dredged up strong emotions in our son. I have started the drive way by escavating soil ready for the shuttering moulds but it is hard work for me. I bought a cement and concrte mixer from BandQ for £148.00 when the drive way is complete it will add value to the hosue, if we have to sell it will be easier to get rid of and at a better price, hopefully. I have to do something to help him, anything positive is better than nothing. If the credit card details don't arrive in two weeks I will send of a proper CCA and apy the pound, I feel they will do that somehow...I may be wrong.

 

Thanks to everyone again

 

Ieuan

[ieuanMr]

Thanks Elsa, I looked at two of thsoe links and they were very interesting so much so I banged off a letter to a car comany that my son had bought his new car from. H has to have a new car and the defaulted on three conditons on the Oft letter 2009 tranparancy and fairness. I hope to get some mileage on that one. Actually it is firming up in my head the type of complaint to make. This has always been a problem for me with out the specific lesgislation. Ford have actually broken most of the fair terms in recent amendments to the Consumer Credit act 1974 by not being:

1. transparant

2. not giving him early view of the documentation

3. not showing courtesy and forebearance.

But the big one will be the lack of care in lending. PPI is small compared to that. I am seeing a chink of light and the feedback has given me hope. Thank guys. I will post a trial complaint shortly and see if anyone agrees.

 

Ieuan

 

Ieuan

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi,

Well done. It's always better to couch the complaint in the light of known rules/regs/guidance. Sometimes until you read them you don't even realise just how much the banks ride roughshod over people.

Good luck and keep us posted ,

All the best,

Elsa x

[ieuanMr]

Elsa there is a problem with the ammentments, I notice the ammendement I used was 2009 in July and that is OK in the complaint with the car firm, but the contrat with the bank.

But I have decided to send a cca to the owner of the debt for the car and that is £6800.00 if they don't comply it could cost them a lot.

 

regards

 

Ieuan