Pay up or go to court?

[Last hope]

Hi

 

I was caught by a police speed trap going 39mph in a 30mph zone. However, it was a mile since the last 30 mph sign, I'd been over a cross-roads since the last sign, it was a rural, unlit road and there were no houses after the last sign. So, the road didn't met the signage requirements (that there should be a 30 mph sign every 300 yards) and any normal person would have thought it was at least 40 mph.

 

I have been offered a course instead of points, but that will cost me £75 and half a day of my time. I'm really cross that the police set up a trap where nobody could be expected to know it was 30 mph. They say if I want to contest the ticket then I have to go to court. If the court finds against me then I presume I'll get three points rather than the option of a course.

 

What would you do?

 

Thanks

[scousegeezer]

Last Hope,

First of all - 30 MPH signs do not have to be placed every 300 yds. Id there are no repeater signs then the speed limit is 30 MPH- read your highway code.

Secondly , you are lucky to get a course at 39 MPH in a 30. Usually the courses are only given to drivers driving at 10% + 1 and 2 miles an hour over the speed limit . Therefore should only get a course at 34 and 35 MPH.

Take the course it will be cheaper than the fine at court.

 

In future remember the signage rule .

 

Chhers - Scousegeezer.

[david1605red]

... Usually the courses are only given to drivers driving at 10% + 1 and 2 miles an hour over the speed limit . Therefore should only get a course at 34 and 35 MPH. ...

Wrong.

 

The threshold for prosecution is 10% + 2mph, i.e. 35 in a 30. You shouldn't get a ticket at all for 34.

 

The range for speed awareness courses is 10%+2 to 10%+6, which is 35 to 39 in a 30 limit. (First time offenders only). So the OP was within the range, and I agree that the course is the least hassle.

[scousegeezer]

Davidred,

TOTALLY disagree. Con + Use regs , allow for a 10% discrepancy on the speedo of a car; they cannot be absolutely accurate. That is why the speed awareness course limts start at 34 MPH. Tickets can be issued at 34MPH for the same reason - and ARE issued at 34MPH. The rest depends on which area safety unit is involved. Different areas have differing guidelines, which is one of the reasons why speed cameras are hated by the motoring public. POSTCODE lottery as some people say .

[spitfire650]

Last Hope,

First of all - 30 MPH signs do not have to be placed every 300 yds. Id there are no repeater signs then the speed limit is 30 MPH- read your highway code.

.

 

I think you will find the 30 mph limit only applies without signs if they restricted roads with streetlights no more than 200 yards apart.

[lamma]

Correct.

[scousegeezer]

OK, so there is a stretch of motorway thai I know of and the street lighting is less than 200yds apart - is the speed limt 30 MPH - NO.

Why? because someone will point out that there are repeater signs saying the speed limit is national speed limit = 70 MPH,

The bottom line is, NO repeater signs = 30 MPH.

There are all sorts of URBAN MYTHS regarding height of street lighting less than 20 ft etc. If you dont see a sign treat as 30 MPH until you DO see a sign.

[Conniff]

OK, so there is a stretch of motorway thai I know of and the street lighting is less than 200yds apart - is the speed limt 30 MPH - NO.

Why? because someone will point out that there are repeater signs saying the speed limit is national speed limit = 70 MPH,

The bottom line is, NO repeater signs = 30 MPH.

There are all sorts of URBAN MYTHS regarding height of street lighting less than 20 ft etc. If you dont see a sign treat as 30 MPH until you DO see a sign.

 

You advised someone to have a read of the highway code earlier, I would suggest you have a read and of the road traffic regulations as well. The things you say about are not 'urban myths'.

[david1605red]

Davidred,

TOTALLY disagree. Con + Use regs , allow for a 10% discrepancy on the speedo of a car; they cannot be absolutely accurate. That is why the speed awareness course limts start at 34 MPH.

Sorry, I can't agree.

 

This is from the ACPO website: "A bandwidth for local decision between 10%+2 and 10%+6 with no courses offered after 10%+6. (Other than Driver Improvement if appropriate). Courses within the bandwidth offered for below the current fixed penalty prosecution threshold."

 

These are guidelines, and it's up to each area police force how they implement them, but most will follow the above.

[spitfire650]

OK, so there is a stretch of motorway thai I know of and the street lighting is less than 200yds apart - is the speed limt 30 MPH - NO.

 

I think you will find that the speed limit on dual carriageways and motorways is 70mph unless stated otherwise.

[gwc1000]

 

 

The threshold for prosecution is 10% + 2mph, i.e. 35 in a 30. You shouldn't get a ticket at all for 34.

 

I am the proud owner of three points for 33mph in a 30mph limit.

[david1605red]

I am the proud owner of three points for 33mph in a 30mph limit.

You should have fought that in court, any reasonable bench of Magistrates would have chucked it out.

[gwc1000]

You should have fought that in court, any reasonable bench of Magistrates would have chucked it out.

But would they? After all I was over the limit. I cannot imagine that they would consider that yes I was speeding, but I wasn't speeding enough.

To tell you the truth at the time it was cheaper to pay the fine, rather than waste a day in Court. I know if I won I could claim costs, but it would not have been anywhere near my lost earnings.

[homeopath]

Last Hope

I'm no expert on traffic law. My instinct alone suggests you do the course, and avoid the 3 points, keeping your licence "clean". Good luck, whatever you decide.

[siege1976]

You should have fought that in court, any reasonable bench of Magistrates would have chucked it out.

Why? If he was doing 33, his speedo would have been showing anything from 33-36mph. It's over the limit.

[david1605red]

Why? If he was doing 33, his speedo would have been showing anything from 33-36mph. It's over the limit.

Well for a start, the measuring equipment only claims to be accurate to +/- 1mph, so he might have been only doing 32, and it's generally accepted in Courts that the driver should be given the benefit of the doubt for speeds within 10% of the limit - which is why ACPO guidelines say don't prosecute unless the recorded speed is at least 10% + 2mph over the limit.

 

In all probability, this would never even have reached the courtroom, the CPS would have most likely dropped the case before it got that far.

[RichardM]

For the OP.

 

Direction number 11 for the TSRGD.

 

Repeater signs

11. - (1) Paragraph (2) applies to the signs shown in diagrams 614, 632, 636, 636.1, 636.2, 637.1, 637.2, 637.3, 638, 638.1 when the arrow is omitted, 639 when the arrow is omitted, 639.1B, 640 when the arrow is omitted, 642, 646, 650.1, 650.2, 650.3, 660, 660.3, 660.4, 660.5, 660.6, 661A, 661.1, 662, 670 (except when displayed on a variable message sign in the manner mentioned in regulation 58(7)(b)), 672, 956, 957, 959, 959.1, 960, 960.1 and 961.

 

(2) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), signs to which this paragraph applies shall be placed at regular intervals along a road which is subject to a restriction, requirement, prohibition or speed limit which can be indicated by the signs.

 

(3) Signs shown in diagram 670 when varied to "20" need not be placed in accordance with paragraph (2) on a road within an area into which each entrance for vehicular traffic has been indicated by the sign shown in diagram 674.

 

(4) The sign shown in diagram 670 (except when displayed on a variable message sign in the manner mentioned in regulation 58(7)(b)) shall not be placed along -

 

 

• (a) a road on which there is provided a system of carriageway lighting furnished by lamps lit by electricity placed not more than 183 metres apart in England and Wales or not more than 185 metres apart in Scotland and which is subject to a speed limit of 30 mph; or
   
  (b) a motorway on which a national speed limit is in force.
  

• Roughly translated means that in a 30mph with street lights, there must not be repeater signs. In the absence of street lights, there MUST be repeater signs at regular intervals. Worth also checking the TRO with the council to see if there should even be a 30 speed limit at that point. Councils are often improperly signposting speed restrictions that they are not entitled to impose.
  

Edited September 5, 2009 by RichardM

[StrawDog]

I am the proud owner of three points for 33mph in a 30mph limit.

 

gwc

 

You have not elaborated on your experience - I don't wish to disclose my credentials so to speak, but take it from me, even on the basis of your short post, I can assure you that you've been scammed. This matter would never have seen the light of day in court. Whatever your reasons are for accepting the situation, I have to say you rolled-over far too easily (no offence intended).

[StrawDog]

Why? If he was doing 33, his speedo would have been showing anything from 33-36mph. It's over the limit.

 

Yes it's over the limit, but crucially, it is not over the accepted prosecution threshold limit.

 

On the basis of the tone of your response, are you seriously suggesting that you would meekly accept without challenge a FPN/summons for exceeding a prescribed speed limit by even 1 mph? Somehow I don't think so.

[lamma]

in the absence of a compliant system of street lighting there must be repeaters. I know quite a few roads that have streetlights and repeaters. I bet most of us do.