Robinson Way CCJ/CO Cap1 card debt - was unable to respond - now want to set aside **LOST** - appealed - **WON** Claim reset - **WON - Case dismissed**

[RobinWayRobinme]

Hi RobinWayRobinme....hope this assists you on Shakeys thread.... we all seem to have our appeals ongoing at the same time eh!! http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/191784-shakespeare62-nastybank-16.html#post2652812

 

Good luck in yours too.

 

Thanx for that Mydogsawestie. I've been following shakeys thread, but may have missed that.

 

Good luck in your appeal. If you post a link to your thread as I'd like to look in and keep up to date with yours.

 

R

[RobinWayRobinme]

Just been through everything on shakeys link. Rather than add an amount for cost of paper ink etc. is there a ballpark figure that is acceptable for, say, cost for 1 A4 letter to cover typing papaer ink etc?

 

Shakeys speadsheet was good (I do have something similar). However, what I have done is I have knocked up a quick database/application that I enter all events, letters, orders, witness statements etc. It then can produce automatically chronology's according to various criteria and my bill of costs and can tag which are points of issue or not. Everything sorted automatically (dosen't matter what order it is entered) and means I can concentrate on the more important things like learning the law and trying to play the game properly with the opposition. For me, it has saved so much time and meant that the chances of missing something are minimised.

R

[Mydogsawestie]

I have this info on file too from one of BRW postings (dont have the link tho I'm afraid) which as always has been put across so well...it explains the time costs & disbursements costs.........................

 

To me, the lesson to be learned from this case is that all LIPs should record the time spent on the case icluding research on CAG. There does not seem to be a limit to the number of hours which can then be claimed at £9.25 per hour. This is subject to an overall cap of 2/3 of the costs of employing a solicitor.

 

In addition, I beleive LIPs are able to claim 'disbursements' such as photocopying and travel. These disbursemens can also include the costs of employing a barrister to represent you at court (although you would have to pay your barrister his fees first and then claim them back if you win.)

 

One good tip on Litigant in Person Costs, is to know that the 2/3 Cap only

 

Thus, when drawing up your Bill of Costs, always split it into two main sections, i.e. Time Costs and then Disbursements.

 

There are no limits on Disbursements, provided they are clearly reasonable and in keeping with the work done.

 

Disbursements are things like Postage, Carrier Costs, Printing, Paper, Ink, telephone calls, Car Fuel & Car Running Costs (to get to/from anywhere as part of the work done), Photocopying, Scanning, Accommodation, Travel & Subsistence, i.e. anything where you can substantiate a reasonable Disbursement.

 

Thus, it is quite conceivable that a Litigant in Person's costs could exceed that of a Lawyer, because a Lawyer is not allowed to include routine items like Paper and Ink etc. This is because it is assumed they include that as part of their fees, and have Gofer Staff to do the Menial Tasks for them. By comparison, the Court knows that a Litigant in Person would have to do everything themselves, and those tasks usually have a cost.

 

For example, if you use a Car or Bike to get to Court, then establish the mileage to Court and double it (because you also have to get back). Then find out a reasonable average for the cost of Fuel in your area. Then establish a reasonable Miles per Gallon, say, 30mpg for an average vehicle and, from that you can submit a Fuel Cost. Then add a reasonable running cost per mile for a vehicle, perhaps 10p or even 20p a mile, all is OK provided you can argue it. It could be higher if you factor in Road Tax, Depreciation, Running Costs, work out the annual cost, and divide that by 10,000 Miles average, and it may well work out at 50p a mile. Multiply that by the round trip mileage to Court, and that's the Disbursement for that!

 

IOW, if a Lawyer's fees would've been £1,200 and you claim £1,000 for your Time, then the 2/3 Cap would limit you to £800, that being 2/3 of the £1,200 a Lawyer would charge.

 

However, if you can show £600 in Disbursements, then your total fees would exceed the Lawyers, i.e. £800 allowed on Time Costs, and £600 for Disbursements, makes £1,400 in total, and that could be allowed because you are not getting more than the 2/3 Cap on your time.

 

So, make sure anything that is a Disbursement is removed from your Time Costs, and make sure you do charge for every second of your time at £9.25 an hour...the Court will limit you to 2/3 of a Lawyer's fees, but better that than under-claim and get less than you deserve.

 

Finally, there is Case History to support this:

 

Wulfsohn, R (on the application of) v Legal Service Commission [2002] EWCA Civ 250 (8 February 2002)

 

Also...

 

Mealing-McLeod v The Common Professional Examination Board 2000 All ER D 436.pdf

 

Cheers,

BRW

[citizenB]

I'm preparing for my appeal hearing next month and am now looking at producing my schedule of costs (can't do anything else right now). Can anyone point me in the direction of any templates and/or what I can claim per letter. ie is there a ball park amount that can be charged say for each A4 letter that is acceptable to cover the cost of stationary and printing. I'm Ok with hourly rate etc for my time, its just what I can claim for disbursements.

 

Thanks

R

 

Bumping my last post as I can't seem to find anything re fixed costs for producing a letter.

 

Hi RobinWayRobinme....hope this assists you on Shakeys thread.... we all seem to have our appeals ongoing at the same time eh!! http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/191784-shakespeare62-nastybank-16.html#post2652812

 

Good luck in yours too.

 

I can see where you would want to put in an "all in" amount for a letter, but it might be better if you were to keep the costs separate as you could possibly be knocked back on time, whereas you should be able to claim ALL your disbursements.

 

I have seen somewhere that a CAGer charged £6.95 per letter, I think that included the time element as well.

 

I imagine you sent all your letters via a tracked method ie Special or Recorded delivery so you will almost certainly require to get those costs back.

 

The link below will take you to a schedule prepared by vjohn82.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2836015.html

 

HTH

[RobinWayRobinme]

I can see where you would want to put in an "all in" amount for a letter, but it might be better if you were to keep the costs separate as you could possibly be knocked back on time, whereas you should be able to claim ALL your disbursements.

 

I have seen somewhere that a CAGer charged £6.95 per letter, I think that included the time element as well.

 

I imagine you sent all your letters via a tracked method ie Special or Recorded delivery so you will almost certainly require to get those costs back.

 

The link below will take you to a schedule prepared by vjohn82.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2836015.html

 

HTH

Yes everything sent recorded or special delivery and I've also kept track of all incidental costs (ink cartridges etc). Just want to make sure that I present everything correctly and max on costs I can claim.

 

Will check out cjohn82's thread.

Thanks CitizenB

R

[citizenB]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/usercp.php

 

from post 452 onwards in response to your question re printing stuff out.

 

However, I think it might just refer to statute/legislation.

 

Case law such as mealing. You might have to print the whole thing:(

[RobinWayRobinme]

Hi CitizenB

Think the link is wrong. Took me to my profile

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/usercp.php

 

from post 452 onwards in response to your question re printing stuff out.

 

However, I think it might just refer to statute/legislation.

 

Case law such as mealing. You might have to print the whole thing:(

[citizenB]

Ooops, sorry.. I dont know how I managed that one

 

Try this..

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/153641-monument-cabot-46.html#post2827800

 

Alternatively, BRW or steven4064 will know the answer

[RobinWayRobinme]

Don't worry, we all have those moments. Do you think it would be ok to pm BRW or steven4064 if I can't find what I'm looking for in the link?

 

Ooops, sorry.. I dont know how I managed that one

 

Try this..

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/153641-monument-cabot-46.html#post2827800

 

Alternatively, BRW or steven4064 will know the answer

[citizenB]

Don't worry, we all have those moments. Do you think it would be ok to pm BRW or steven4064 if I can't find what I'm looking for in the link?

 

 

Sadly my moments are becoming more frequent:rolleyes:

 

Yep, they will be happy to help, I'm sure. Also, DonkeyB and vjohn82 and foolishgirl are other CAGers who would be happy to offer advice and also know where to put their hands on links.

[patrickq1]

Sadly my moments are becoming more frequent

 

Yep, they will be happy to help, I'm sure. Also, DonkeyB and vjohn82 and foolishgirl are other CAGers who would be happy to offer advice and also know where to put their hands on links.

:)you can join me n sparkie in twilight zone cb lol

[citizenB]

:)you can join me n sparkie in twilight zone cb lol

 

 

Thanks patrick :grin:

[RobinWayRobinme]

Just an update. Appeal tomorrow. I'm fully prepared and ready to go. Will do very little for rest of day apart from reading through papers this evening (wont spend too much time on that as I just want to relax tonight).

R

[cymruambyth]

Good luck.

Cy

[Mydogsawestie]

Good luck tomorrow, hope you still have that same judge where you did yourself proud last time, look forward to reading your write up MDAW

[eatcake]

Good Luck for tomorrow hope u get the result u deserve.

[citizenB]

Good luck x

[RobinWayRobinme]

Hi all. I WON .

 

Whilst I didn't post it up before now (didn't want other side getting any clues if they were looking in) I changed my tact after permission to appeal hearing and relied upon argument re irregular judgment and further app to withdraw admission.

 

Basically, I walked out with (a) judgment set aside, (b) admission withdrawn, © Costs (learnt a lot about this and will comment latter), (d) other side to provide a copy of ORIGINAL AGREEMENT within 3 weeks. I know that that matter is not dead a burried and subject to them providing a copy of the original agreement I will need to file and serve a defence, but it was exactly what I set out to acheive before I walked into the hearing.

 

It was an eventful hearing as counsel for other side tried to talk over me on a number of ocasions and I had to point out to the judge that he should stop Mr XXXX from not allowing me to present my case properly (judge stopped him from continually interupting me)

 

The hearing stopped half way through as the barrister for other side tried to argue that he had not been given full instructions from his client and would need to make a phone call. I objected but it was allowed.

 

I argued that I wanted an order that Claimant should provide a copy of the original credit agreement they would be relying upon and got it. However, strong opposition to this. He even told the Court that it was not necessary now to produce an original agreement as there was new case law they would be relying upon. I quickly jumped in and stated that if you are making a statement like that you must back it up and state the case law you are referring to. The response was that he didn't know but they would be relying upon it. I quickly pointed out to him what case law he was referring to (Carey v HSBC) and described how it had no bearing on this matter and that it was not case law that they would be able to successfully argue. I got my order for the copy of the original agreement.

 

On the costs side, I didn't get as much as I was claiming. Basically the barrister tried to lie and lie again about what I was not entitled to and then tried to attack my mileage costs. He tried to suggest that my round trip to court was some 50 miles less than it actually is arguing that I googled it before. Judge went with him (learnt that in future take printout from AA or RAC for shortest route). What did help in shutting him up was I read from the Bar Council guide to LiP's costs. However, I don't think I was as dominant as I should have been and my costs were summarily assessed at half what I was after.

 

I'm guessing that my only way of getting a detailed assessment of my costs would be to appeal the order relating to the cost summarily assessed. If I am wrong and its just a matter of requesting it, would someone please let me know.

 

Overall, Brilliant result. Appeal WON. Would be nice to see, if it can be done, to have my thread retitled to Trying to set aside judgment - APPEAL WON.

 

The whole process (the application to set aside judgment and then appealing that decision) has been very stressful, but I have learnt so much. I could not have done this without the help of many caggers here. The one person who has helped to enlist the help of others when it has been needed, I will be forever grateful - CitizenB. Others are too numerous to mention, but I must mention AndyOrch for his help.

 

I still have some work on my case, but it is from the position I wanted to fight from.

 

I hope, from the experience I have gained I can help others. But for now, a few glasses of wine with my wife and a relazing evening.

 

Thank you everyone.

R

[humbleman]

great news

[banker_rhymes_with]

Well done!

 

Enjoy that wine, well deserved.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[BeauBrummie]

Robinwayrobinme,

 

I am so pleased that you have won this argument and can continue with your battle. This gives me great hope for my case which has had its ups and downs as you know.

 

Just pleased for you now and as you say relax and enjoy the moment.

 

Beau

[pstanf10]

good news, hope my case goes as well.

[cymruambyth]

Congratulations. You have worked hard and continued to help others whilst still fighting. Thank you.

[eatcake]

GREAT NEWS and well deserved.

[gas442]

Well done Robin, I have just read all 23 pages and you thoroughly deserve this result.

I am in court Monday and just about to start down this road. Your work on here has inspired me and answered so many of my fears / questions. Thank you so much.